Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

But how is that possible when Police pulled them off the phone she gave them and it was only purchased a couple of months prior? And looking at the people on the deck, there is no way that photo was taken middle of the day in mid-summer in Australia. Looking at the clothing.

Opinion

Check out weather. I have. 16 to 19 ° that day. cold snap. The shadow direction on verandah is actually right angle to what it should be. Impossible.

How? Well...undetected edits i'd say. so to prove that I need to have a way of proving the photos were fake.. I have one....well 5 really.

Why? Well I assume to make it seem that it wasn't possible to have anything but an abduction. 9.37 to 10.30 achieves that. Of course if instead it's 8 to 10.30 then all bets off

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Do you think he would have been wearing three layers or even two at Christmas time?

Well I wouldn't no matter the temperature but given it was 16 to 19 and given they removed .. one very possible I'd say.

 

[31550]

Sorry to keep jumping all over the place but it's important. Overington book says the first 4 Photos were quick succession then a gap of 7 minutes to the roar shot.

Ive looked thoroughly at symmetry between them

The photos can be grouped based on symmetry and activity

* The first 3 have W facing FD and both doing drawings..the pink water bottle is upright and the FD is seated right in front of her drawings

* The last two ( including roar shot) W has tuned away from FD. There is a black and also an orange crayon to Ws left identical place..FD has shifted away from her drawings gone closer to the pram ( pulled it a little closer), knocked her pink bottle over. She is playing with something held in her fingers as is W.

* The roar shot shows what they were both playing with ie leaves..I'm inclined to think that between the 3rd and 4th photo they went searching for leaves to draw on or include.

In the 4th photo W has a singlet on, his Spiderman tshirt, his Spiderman suit.( See close up). Yet in the final roar shot he hasn't got the singlet on at all meaning it was removed you can see the stitching on t shirt not there in roar shot

Importance?

If photos times were subject of edit then sequence and time gaps become critical. I think that because no one could specifically see the leaves we wouldn't be able to work out they are there.The interval to their activities is the end of 3rd photo and before next change of position moving crayons and you can see both children holding something in finger ( I think most likely is leaf) if they left no space it's wrong sequence. In any event the extra singlet/ shirt was removed and we were told was never there to start.

I think it's been messed up.

These sorts of mistakes are often what brings people unstuck

I can see the same singlet in the Roar shot as all the other shots. Am I missing some detail? I don't see how you conclude his singlet was removed. It's a Spiderman singlet under the Spiderman suit.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

But how is that possible when Police pulled them off the phone she gave them and it was only purchased a couple of months prior? And looking at the people on the deck, there is no way that photo was taken middle of the day in mid-summer in Australia. Looking at the clothing.

Then the only people on the verandah should be FM, FGM, FD and WT right?
Anyone other than that then they have edited somehow? Not going to even attempt how because it's irrelevant

Ok so long as I know the equation

I can see the same singlet in the Roar shot as all the other shots. Am I missing some detail? I don't see how you conclude his singlet was removed. It's a Spiderman singlet under the Spiderman suit.

There is stitching along a line separate from shirt itself which I conclude belongs to undershirt. I do that because there is space between. And it's not there at all in roar..

 

[Lady O]

Well I wouldn't no matter the temperature but given it was 16 to 19 and given they removed .. one very possible I'd say.

16-19 degrees? On Christmas day? On the mid north coast of NSW? Sounds a bit low.

 

[31550]

Then the only people on the verandah should be FM, FGM, FD and WT right?
Anyone other than that then they have edited somehow? Not going to even attempt how because it's irrelevant

Ok so long as I know the equation

There is stitching along a line separate from shirt itself which I conclude belongs to undershirt. I do that because there is space between. And it's not there at all in roar..

I can see some white in one photo that could be another singlet under the Spiderman singlet. It might just be an artefact or maybe he did have 2 singlets but the white one might just be hidden in the other photos. Still not sure what this proves or disproves.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

FF and FGM are not on record anywhere being interrogated about the drive. The drive is not mentioned in FF statement or in FGM walkthrough.

While it is plausible that FM does not remember the exact timing of the drive, there are only two possibilities: Either it was before FF returned, or after FF returned.

If it was just before FF returned it makes no sense as William was reportedly "only gone 5 minutes" - so he could not have possibly got as far as the riding school. It would make no sense to look there before searching the FGM property, then the street, then alerting neighbours to search their properties. Why drive off anywhere BEFORE doing this? Not plausible IMO.

If it was after FF returned, then it's almost impossible to fit to the timeline of meeting FF, talking to neighbours, walking to the bus shelter and back as well at driving to BCR all before calling 000. And no neighbours saw FM take the drive out or back, despite them being on the street. It also makes no sense that FM would take FGM car and not the FF car, which would have a better view, and with which William was familiar, and would recognise (after all, he was supposedly 'looking fo Daddys car'). Again, illogical, improbable, implausible.

If something doesn't make sense it probably isn't true.

So how does the drive make sense? It makes sense if it was completed before FF returned, and the purpose of the drive was NOT to look for William, but to remove William from the property. Plenty of time for the drive between 9.37 and 10.30. During this time, there is no verifiable alibi for the FM. No neighbours were in the street. No cars were seen coming and going.

That's what it comes down to really, leaving only one other alternative. That is that William wandered off into the bush while he was unattended. Perhaps in covering up her negligence of leaving a 3yo unattended for "only 5 minutes", (when it may in fact have been 20minutes), she has inadvertently left herself open to suspicion of covering up a fatal accident.

I keep coming back to my theory on losing things. They are always in the most logical place, which in your haste to find it, you never search thoroughly enough before looking elsewhere.

Ive said this before that when you assess persuasiveness of evidence you simply can't accept anything from a tainted source. The FPs are tainted until they are cleared if they are. Accordingly we don't know that there was a trip at all. Peter the truckie was evidence that none happened in the post 9.37 time..indeed if it did then Crabb's should have heard.it. I think the coroner and SFR are trying to prove none took place in that timeline.

If one happened in an earlier time then that means that there was a hoax which also implies SFR believe that too.

 

[Awakening]

I don't doubt that people searching actually tried to find him, but they were then diverted to the bio abduction and then to the fictitious cars and then the pedos.

I'm pretty sure I told you before about the old chap who went missing and despite searches in a wide area, his body was eventually found 12 months or so later only 300mtrs from where he was last seen. Similar with AJ Elfalak, although thankfully he was alive, but only 500mtrs from where he wandered. I think the fact that the Coroner ordered another search years later and then again more recently might indicate that the initial search was not considered thorough enough. How thoroughly can you search in such a difficult terrain?

I think this is a very valid point you make my fair Lady.

Here’s an article about a bush tracker concerned the search was called off too early and the focus moved to quickly to a kidnapping.

Paraphrased from the article;

Professional bush tracker Jake Cassar involved in the 2014 search for William Tyrrell, says he is still devastated police called off the quest for the boy’s location “too early” when the search was scaled back after 7 days.

It was a “missed opportunity” to find more information when the 2014 search lost momentum. He felt it was still possible he could be out there but police claimed it was unlikely.

Directly from the article;

“Mr Cassar said an assumption that William had “definitely” been abducted settled in on day five of the search.

It was deeply concerning having that locked in that he had definitely been kidnapped,” he said.

“And that‘s why, days after the search had largely ended, I stayed out there with my dog and a couple of volunteers from the area.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/crime/anything-was-possible-bush-expert-jake-cassar-says-william-tyrrell-search-should-have-gone-longer/news-story/3d51507b9665c18a1f138271a8b039a9

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I can see some white in one photo that could be another singlet under the Spiderman singlet. It might just be an artefact or maybe he did have 2 singlets but the white one might just be hidden in the other photos. Still not sure what this proves or disproves.

Well it proved a lie. She said he wore none. But if we are trying to commit a hoax on an old series of photos then maybe you just can't remember whether he wore one or not and becomes evidence

 

[Lady O]

Well it proved a lie. She said he wore none. But if we are trying to commit a hoax on an old series of photos then maybe you just can't remember whether he wore one or not and becomes evidence

Not wanting to be pedantic, but if there was a white garment under the two red/blue t-shirts, and you could see the neckline of the white garment, then it would be a t-shirt, not a singlet.

 

[stormbird]

The effort you put in Stormbird is so amazing. Thank you.!!!

Do we know if FM sister and kids were at Kendall at Xmas? Perhaps Xmas party was a day or two before

Most days in summer will have same or similar elipse..Xmas day stands out though because the temp was cold snap in the range 16 to 19. Soooo wearing warm clothing would be suitable that day

I don't know who was in Kendall for Christmas, and the street Christmas party might have been days or weeks earlier. The fosters' attendance at the street party doesn't mean they were still at FGM's on the 25th of December.

 

[winyhill]

16-19 degrees? On Christmas day? On the mid north coast of NSW? Sounds a bit low.

Where do get 16-19 from.? Never ever been those temps Xmas in that area.
BoM data puts temps that week high 20s to 30. Cool for that area. But nobody would be dressed that way noonish in those temps.
Sorry, on phone. Not querying Lady O but the poster she is replying to.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I don't know who was in Kendall for Christmas, and the street Christmas party might have been days or weeks earlier. The fosters' attendance at the street party doesn't mean they were still at FGM's on the 25th of December.

Very true. Just a hunch really. Agree it could have been any day. Only two match in weather terms 7th and Xmas day itself. The party wouldn't have been. Xmas day. Heavily overcast the whole day except for a period right in middle where sun broke through for 2hrs approx . Seemingly they left the carport light on the whole day too. This all matches perfectly. Short direct south shadows like TCP said around 12 to 1pm in summer

Damn. Without looking I now know the sister has at least 2 boys 3-4ish years older than W no more that 18 mths apart in ages.

Thanks Stormbird. You are a legend. These photos can't now be manipulated. What they reveal will stay revealed. I always thought it was a little odd that FD had drawn two pictures of Santa in September. I'm interested too in whats on top of a small round table just inside apart from the brand new teapot for FGM.

The jigsaw pieces are now falling in place

Between the 3rd and 4th photo they went searching for leaves when there was no time gap. Crayons and water bottle pram moved. Mistake. Then between 4th and 5th photo W has his inside tshirt taken off. Yeah 22° is cool but doesn't warrant 3 items of clothing. Perhaps earlier when looked like rain. She said he didn't wear one. She says a lot of things that are wrong. Appears to be somewhat a habit in my opinion

Famous words of FGM......"This is where the photo was taken". Would have been nice to say when though Granny.

 

[winyhill]

The public would have been oblivious to the bio family’s existence let alone their previous attempt to keep him.
The ground search continued for days with sniffer dogs reaching the point of exhaustion. Locals who knew the area well searched day and night. The local pony club joined in. It was the weekend - people were available and they all pitched in.

The searchers who were there on the ground, most of the people in the town and many in the surrounding area all knew of those things from the very beginning. Us in the wider public who were relying on media stories did not.
Bush telegraph in action.

 

[Lady O]

The searchers who were there on the ground, most of the people in the town and many in the surrounding area all knew of those things from the very beginning. Us in the wider public who were relying on media stories did not.
Bush telegraph in action.

I expect FGM was happily telling the story to all and sundry.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

One thing that has always been obvious to me is that all the photos supplied focus entirely on W. None focus on FD. Of course if you are going to fake them then you aren't going to waste time faking unnecessary ones. There probably were ones of FD but weren't changed nor provided

 

[Kurve]

One thing that has always been obvious to me is that all the photos supplied focus entirely on W. None focus on FD. Of course if you are going to fake them then you aren't going to waste time faking unnecessary ones. There probably were ones of FD but weren't changed nor provided

We've only seen the relevant images, we don't need to see every single image in that camera.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

We've only seen the relevant images, we don't need to see every single image in that camera.

Here is the thing though. The verandah scene ALL has relevance. I'm therefore inclined to say that even ones where W was in background would be relevant. Do they have them? We don't know. I'm guessing not

 

[LRitz]

FF and FGM are not on record anywhere being interrogated about the drive. The drive is not mentioned in FF statement or in FGM walkthrough.

While it is plausible that FM does not remember the exact timing of the drive, there are only two possibilities: Either it was before FF returned, or after FF returned.

If it was just before FF returned it makes no sense as William was reportedly "only gone 5 minutes" - so he could not have possibly got as far as the riding school. It would make no sense to look there before searching the FGM property, then the street, then alerting neighbours to search their properties. Why drive off anywhere BEFORE doing this? Not plausible IMO.

If it was after FF returned, then it's almost impossible to fit to the timeline of meeting FF, talking to neighbours, walking to the bus shelter and back as well at driving to BCR all before calling 000. And no neighbours saw FM take the drive out or back, despite them being on the street. It also makes no sense that FM would take FGM car and not the FF car, which would have a better view, and with which William was familiar, and would recognise (after all, he was supposedly 'looking fo Daddys car'). Again, illogical, improbable, implausible.

If something doesn't make sense it probably isn't true.

So how does the drive make sense? It makes sense if it was completed before FF returned, and the purpose of the drive was NOT to look for William, but to remove William from the property. Plenty of time for the drive between 9.37 and 10.30. During this time, there is no verifiable alibi for the FM. No neighbours were in the street. No cars were seen coming and going.

Other possibilities.
There was no drive of the FGM's car that morning.
FGM or FF drove the car.
FF arrived home while FM was out.
No one saw the FF return AFAIK, and no one saw the FM in the FGM car.
I don't know it is easy to conclude what the purpose of the drive was. Or the purpose of making up a drive story if there was no drive.

Also you would guess that FM would have to make sure someone was watching FD. FD is only 4. She is in a house she has rarely visited, and may have not clear memory of. She does not see FGM very often. FGM has no relation to FD. She is not a carer of FD. So might have been a bit of a scare for FD to find that she is in a house with only FGM and FM has disappeared without a word.

 

[LRitz]

One thing that has always been obvious to me is that all the photos supplied focus entirely on W. None focus on FD. Of course if you are going to fake them then you aren't going to waste time faking unnecessary ones. There probably were ones of FD but weren't changed nor provided

We've only seen the relevant images, we don't need to see every single image in that camera.

From the numbers the police gave to the photos there could have been a photo before those released that showed FD. Also in the second released photo I thought that maybe FF is looking up from her drawing and looking at the camera. But it is hard to tell with the pixelation.
But the photos do seem to focus on W. And trying to get one photo of him looking at the camera or the photographer. Young kids can be hard to photograph.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Other possibilities.
There was no drive of the FGM's car that morning.
FGM or FF drove the car.
FF arrived home while FM was out.
No one saw the FF return AFAIK, and no one saw the FM in the FGM car.
I don't know it is easy to conclude what the purpose of the drive was. Or the purpose of making up a drive story if there was no drive.

Also you would guess that FM would have to make sure someone was watching FD. FD is only 4. She is in a house she has rarely visited, and may have not clear memory of. She does not see FGM very often. FGM has no relation to FD. She is not a carer of FD. So might have been a bit of a scare for FD to find that she is in a house with only FGM and FM has disappeared without a word.

As you say. Three options..if they aren't involved then it is truth which means she went for a drive but inexplicably not to the destination she said

On basis they were involved then there was a legitimate purpose to it. either it was to dispose of something or it was instead a diversion away from something they don't want you to see or know.

Given I believe the photos times were faked I think it was the latter to be diversion to what really happened..in this case the obvious answer is the time from 8 to 9.37

 

[LRitz]

The FGM made a mistake of saying FF left at 8. She started to say she told opening time of Chemist in walk through ( faux pas) but stopped herself ..he says same thing in his 14th sept statement but can't be sure they spoke to each other ..so they both accept FGM had the cognitive ability to inform that detail. At same time she says he has to leave REALLY early emphasizing it . It was a conscious choice knowing the opening time was 1 hour later!! FF and FM both say 8.40..I highly suspect that because of what she knew FGM was told to say she wasn't even up when he left but she didn't change the actual time like they did revealing in effect he left at 8. Then 3 at breakfast and changes immediately to 4..Neither W nor FF were there at 8 imo.

The only credible evidence of hearing children was Wilson who said BEFORE she left at 8.30 approx to do errands. I think she heard them at or about the time of photo which I believe was 7.39

The one thing in this case that always puzzles me (maybe i missed this) is the time the FM said she took her drive to look for WT. Has the FM never said the time she went for the drive? Has she said she is unclear of the time? What has she said? besides that she went for the drive? Im just curious about what she said. I dont understand why no one ever mentions what she said about the time (not about what she did on the drive).

The drive in the FGM car that is alleged by FM is a real puzzle. And FM says she knows where she drove, and that she saw a semi, but she can not remember the time. But i think it is one of many puzzles.

Another puzzle is FGM saying FF left at or before 8. The FGM walkthrough she alleges that FF leaves to go to Lakewood and then she has breakfast with the children and FF is certainly not there. She says word to the effect that she does not know what time FF left , but that he was certainly not there for the breakfast at 8.

The walkthrough is about 5 days later. So possibly there would have been other interview and questions by the police of the timeline that morning, trying to find the exact time William went missing. Also lots of opportunities for FM FF and FGM to discuss what happened that morning. Time to get your story together. So the puzzle is why did she say 8. She does not say ...Im not sure.... or, it must have been around xx time. She says breakfast was at 8. Problem one: leaving at 8 does not fit with the trip to the chemist, or the start of the work call that was booked at 9:30. Why can she not see this. Problem 2: FGM adds that breakfast went for an hour so ends around 9. As discussed before a three year old sitting at a breakfast table for an hour is unbelievable IMO, and certainly for William who is very active. So there is doubt that the hour for eating breakfast is correct. But that is the narrative that FGM alleges.

Numerous possible reasons FGM says 8.
FGM is correct and FF has left by 8.
FGM is incorrect due to, stress, old age, just got mixed up ...etc
FGM is incorrect and FF left around 9, as alleged by FF and FM.
FGM is incorrect and FF left at another time, after 8 but well before 9.
Or FGM is balancing two timelines and has been told what to say. But yes, gets muddled with this and FGM is concentrating on FF not being there for breakfast (which may have actually started at 8), and that FF had left but William allegedly had remained at the house.
Or thatFGM know that FF had to have left before the photos were taken and that 8am is before the photos.

And the child/children are heard outside before 8:30. They must have been making a bit of noise to be heard by the neighbour Wilson. Do we know how she described what she heard. Was it one or two children? Did it last long? Was it just chatter or was there yelling or screaming?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

There is an answer I believe. I'll PM you

 

[Lady O]

We've only seen the relevant images, we don't need to see every single image in that camera.

I've got one of FGM that looks like it was taken at the same time.

 

[Merlina]

And the child/children are heard outside before 8:30. They must have been making a bit of noise to be heard by the neighbour Wilson. Do we know how she described what she heard. Was it one or two children? Did it last long? Was it just chatter or was there yelling or screaming?

A 2015 Daily Telegraph article quotes Judy Wilson. She describes what she heard as little children playing and laughing.

From the article:

Judy Wilson, whose fence sits just 10m from where William was taken, heard him and his sister playing earlier that morning before she headed into town to run some errands.

When she returned, the street was in chaos.

“I wasn’t home and my husband wasn’t home. The only thing I was able to tell police was that I heard the children playing but didn’t see them … I just heard kids laughing and you could tell they were little children,” Mrs Wilson said.

“I don’t think it was an opportunistic grab from someone who just happened to be here because we don’t get strangers wandering around.”

https://dailytelegraph.com.au/news/...r/news-story/03fb14d003bfb73d3c193b5f6731f74c