Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Merlina]

But you have FD doing 2 Santa drawings

I don't think these are Santa drawings. The red and white striped thing looks like a doll's blanket draped over a doll to me.

I think the way it drapes is more like fabric than paper, and I can see what looks like the top of the doll's head and it's shoes.

It could be the "Little Tara" doll that the FPs talk about in the 60 Minutes interview with Michael Usher, from about the 4:18 mark:

60 Minutes YouTube

 

[31550]

If you look at images on the other side you will soon realise that the gums have large tall trunks and don't bush to create anything like what you say. In any event there is a second image roo of same tree from different window same flowers. It's a magnolia. Zero doubt

Zero doubt.

 

[Underarrest_]

If the suit was purchased in Bali it would be interesting to know if there were other photos taken of William in his suit.

 

[Underarrest_]

Can anyone recall when the last child safety visit was? Was it the beginning of September?

 

[stormbird]

Does anybody know what month and year the trip to Bali was?

I've never been able to find real information about this. Maybe the following is correct, but also maybe it isn't. Is there even any evidence that William and his sister went to Bali too? (The Where's William podcast once posted a video said to show William during his trip to Bali, but what little background was visible didn't look Indonesian to me - but I've never been there, so who knows, maybe their resorts might sometimes resemble Australian places, or maybe it was filmed during the trip to or from.)

From Searching for Spiderman, pages 51-52 (which uses the pseudonyms "Anna" for FM, and "Lindsay" for William's sister; Ben was William's case worker):

"Foster families need advance permission to travel. Anna applied for pre-approval to travel on a bulk basis, which can be granted for three months at a stretch. It was under this arrangement that the family would make their fateful trip to Kendall.

For overseas travel, there was additional paperwork, as if the process wasn’t tedious enough already. The children had passports issued in their birth names. They had been to a Balinese holiday resort in July 2014. On this trip Anna bought the children two new dress-up costumes. Lindsay chose a blue Elsa dress made popular by the Disney film Frozen. She proudly showed it to Ben on his next home visit. He put it in his newest report. The costume they bought for William would be shown to the whole nation. His red and blue superhero outfit would become a powerful emblem of loss, seared on our collective memory."

---

From Daily Mail, 26 Nov 2021:

"In July 2014, they took William to Bali on a holiday and it was there they bought the Spider-Man obsessed toddler his blue-and-red Spider-Man suit.

The family returned to Sydney in early August and William was attending day care at a north shore child centre."

 

[Kurve]

I've never been able to find real information about this. Maybe the following is correct, but also maybe it isn't. Is there even any evidence that William and his sister went to Bali too? (The Where's William podcast once posted a video said to show William during his trip to Bali, but what little background was visible didn't look Indonesian to me - but I've never been there, so who knows, maybe their resorts might sometimes resemble Australian places, or maybe it was filmed during the trip to or from.)

Of course there's evidence they went to Bali. That's not something the cops wouldn't have checked.

 

[31550]

I've never been able to find real information about this. Maybe the following is correct, but also maybe it isn't. Is there even any evidence that William and his sister went to Bali too? (The Where's William podcast once posted a video said to show William during his trip to Bali, but what little background was visible didn't look Indonesian to me - but I've never been there, so who knows, maybe their resorts might sometimes resemble Australian places, or maybe it was filmed during the trip to or from.)

From Searching for Spiderman, pages 51-52 (which uses the pseudonyms "Anna" for FM, and "Lindsay" for William's sister; Ben was William's case worker):

"Foster families need advance permission to travel. Anna applied for pre-approval to travel on a bulk basis, which can be granted for three months at a stretch. It was under this arrangement that the family would make their fateful trip to Kendall.

For overseas travel, there was additional paperwork, as if the process wasn’t tedious enough already. The children had passports issued in their birth names. They had been to a Balinese holiday resort in July 2014. On this trip Anna bought the children two new dress-up costumes. Lindsay chose a blue Elsa dress made popular by the Disney film Frozen. She proudly showed it to Ben on his next home visit. He put it in his newest report. The costume they bought for William would be shown to the whole nation. His red and blue superhero outfit would become a powerful emblem of loss, seared on our collective memory."

---

From Daily Mail, 26 Nov 2021:

"In July 2014, they took William to Bali on a holiday and it was there they bought the Spider-Man obsessed toddler his blue-and-red Spider-Man suit.

The family returned to Sydney in early August and William was attending day care at a north shore child centre."

So if Chumley is correct, Ben visited between early August (return from Bali) and the trip to Kendall, otherwise could not have seen the Elsa dress. Sadly, the report of Ben's last visit has never been made public. It would be enlightening to know details of William's physical and mental state at the time, as well as any other observations Ben may have made.

 

[Underarrest_]

I've never been able to find real information about this. Maybe the following is correct, but also maybe it isn't. Is there even any evidence that William and his sister went to Bali too? (The Where's William podcast once posted a video said to show William during his trip to Bali, but what little background was visible didn't look Indonesian to me - but I've never been there, so who knows, maybe their resorts might sometimes resemble Australian places, or maybe it was filmed during the trip to or from.)

From Searching for Spiderman, pages 51-52 (which uses the pseudonyms "Anna" for FM, and "Lindsay" for William's sister; Ben was William's case worker):

"Foster families need advance permission to travel. Anna applied for pre-approval to travel on a bulk basis, which can be granted for three months at a stretch. It was under this arrangement that the family would make their fateful trip to Kendall.

For overseas travel, there was additional paperwork, as if the process wasn’t tedious enough already. The children had passports issued in their birth names. They had been to a Balinese holiday resort in July 2014. On this trip Anna bought the children two new dress-up costumes. Lindsay chose a blue Elsa dress made popular by the Disney film Frozen. She proudly showed it to Ben on his next home visit. He put it in his newest report. The costume they bought for William would be shown to the whole nation. His red and blue superhero outfit would become a powerful emblem of loss, seared on our collective memory."

---

From Daily Mail, 26 Nov 2021:

"In July 2014, they took William to Bali on a holiday and it was there they bought the Spider-Man obsessed toddler his blue-and-red Spider-Man suit.

The family returned to Sydney in early August and William was attending day care at a north shore child centre."

Thanks Stormbird.
I wasn’t alluding to the children not being in Bali just if there was other photos taken of him in his suit whether in Bali or elsewhere.
There has been some mention of the date of Ben’s visit not long before William went missing. I can’t remember if I read it or it was in a podcast.

 

[stormbird]

Can anyone recall when the last child safety visit was? Was it the beginning of September?

The Witness: William Tyrrell podcast says William's "foster care worker" went to the family house on the 5th of September.

Episode 3: "The Foster Parents" (at about 20:30 minutes on Omny.fm)

 

[Underarrest_]

The Witness: William Tyrrell podcast says William's "foster care worker" went to the family house on the 5th of September.

Episode 3: "The Foster Parents" (at about 20:30 minutes on Omny.fm)

Thankyou so much.

 

[Lady O]

So if Chumley is correct, Ben visited between early August (return from Bali) and the trip to Kendall, otherwise could not have seen the Elsa dress. Sadly, the report of Ben's last visit has never been made public. It would be enlightening to know details of William's physical and mental state at the time, as well as any other observations Ben may have made.

This is from Missing William Tyrrell:

"

"

 

[stormbird]

Of course there's evidence they went to Bali. That's not something the cops wouldn't have checked.

It would be an obvious thing to check and they probably did.

But there are no photos of William in Bali (or not that I've seen), even though there are some showing him in Australia in the months just before and after the trip.

And this from "A sister's devotion must drive us to find William Tyrrell", The Australian, 09? Oct 2020 (paywalled; I saved the text years ago and now can't check it again):

'Facial recognition technology has been used to search the Border Force database to establish if an Australian passport has ever been issued featuring the image of a child that might be William. The process produced "galleries of potential matches" all of which have since been searched manually, but again, there has been no result.'

Maybe the article is wrong and instead of "if an Australian passport has ever been issued" it meant issued since William went missing.

 

[Kurve]

It would be an obvious thing to check and they probably did.

But there are no photos of William in Bali (or not that I've seen), even though there are some showing him in Australia in the months just before and after the trip.

And this from "A sister's devotion must drive us to find William Tyrrell", The Australian, 09? Oct 2020 (paywalled; I saved the text years ago and now can't check it again):

'Facial recognition technology has been used to search the Border Force database to establish if an Australian passport has ever been issued featuring the image of a child that might be William. The process produced "galleries of potential matches" all of which have since been searched manually, but again, there has been no result.'

Maybe the article is wrong and instead of "if an Australian passport has ever been issued" it meant issued since William went missing.

I've seen some images of William purported to be in Bali and it seems clear to me others in the frame were Balinese locals.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Why would Jubelin be investigating the suit in that detail unless he had concerns about it being the one in photos? Perhaps it was the forensic team on the back of the drive for search and missing child after 9.37 that created the confirmation bias pressure to accept 9.37.. 3 Months on with both batteries depleted it can't now be checked.. so GJ has to resort to detailed examination to hope to confirm the suit was legitimate Bali purchase.. because of the principle of mutually exclusive events I know it can't be.

The full window vine shot is proof of photo substitution (amongst other evidence) together with people who are in reflections and 6 in total. So if it can be proven the suit was THE suit bought in Bali then how can both be true. They can't. There is some suspicion that the 5th photo has had W cloned into the photos array. Will scrutinise

On the 4th photo he has to me 3 t-shirts and 5th one only 2 ....being only 15 seconds apart. Try taking a child's 3 shirts off and putting 2 back on then taking photo in 15 seconds. Impossible me. But there for all to see. I need explanation

Is the 5th suit different to the others? Haven't done that analysis as yet so no conclusions. General observation it appears the same.

in each of the first 4 shots W looks younger. The last roar shot looks older.

The 5th photo has W looking up to someone on his right. Ive now found that person in reflections. I'm happy to PM how you find it. Only in one MSM organisations pictures because they don't filter photos.. It's actually 2 people in reflection . An elderly man with grey cap wearing an Anzac sunrise logo t shirt and a child about 6 in green clothes hugging to him scared by W as he roared. That moment he turned to man and was FA in/hugged to his chest arm around neck .


In the 5th shot roar down Ws left neck is a mark. That isn't consistent with what I saw at McD but it's there at the time of that photo. Subtle. Nothing elsewhere on neck which has 1 less shirt..I suspect that this roar is a common pose for W..one possible explanation that resolves the anomaly of 3 shirts in 15 seconds is that an older version of W was cloned into the position. Having now inspected both the 4th photo and 5th photo Spiderman suit I initially conclude they are different. Look at his right arm and compare the strength of the black lines. Markedly different. Look also at the pattern as it reaches the high shoulder. Different. Yes I think W is an older W in the 5th photo and he has been cloned into place wearing a different Spiderman suit to the other 4... I know the FF has capacity to do this because I have a social media work post picture where he has been deleted entirely from a picture of 5 men together. Have both pictures.. I can't post because it isn't pixelated..I will scrutinize first 4 photos now with last Spiderman to make a list of errors to confirm my strong suspicion

I think photo 4 has edits attempting to hide the pattern error. It shows because the red extends past the line of the collar of the first shirt. Obvious edit imo. It appears as though they attempted to delete a line and then went past the collar limit to right of chin..I will use a pointer and repost

 

[Kurve]

Why would Jubelin be investigating the suit in that detail unless he had concerns about it being the one in photos? Perhaps it was the forensic team on the back of the drive for search and missing child after 9.37 that created the confirmation bias pressure to accept 9.37.. 3 Months on with both batteries depleted it can't now be checked.. so GJ has to resort to detailed examination to hope to confirm the suit was legitimate Bali purchase.. because of the principle of mutually exclusive events I know it can't be.

It would be a matter of thoroughness that Jubelin wanted their holiday to Bali examined, where they stayed, who they met up with, if the kids were babysat at any point and who did it, etc.

Jubelin also wanted an exact replica of the Spiderman suit so he could use it through the investigation for photos/identifications and they got a spare to plant in the bush so they could gauge Mr Savage's reaction when he walked past it.

If a Spiderman suit was found in the scrub or an op shop somewhere, investigators would need to check it against something. Very important they try to find a replica of the suit William was wearing.

 

[31550]

It would be a matter of thoroughness that Jubelin wanted their holiday to Bali examined, where they stayed, who they met up with, if the kids were babysat at any point and who did it, etc.

Jubelin also wanted an exact replica of the Spiderman suit so he could use it through the investigation for photos/identifications and they got a spare to plant in the bush so they could gauge Mr Savage's reaction when he walked past it.

If a Spiderman suit was found in the scrub or an op shop somewhere, investigators would need to check it against something. Very important they try to find a replica of the suit William was wearing.

Also wanted an exact match to do comparisons with red and blue fibres which may have been found in various ground searches.

 

[LRitz]

The Witness: William Tyrrell podcast says William's "foster care worker" went to the family house on the 5th of September.

Episode 3: "The Foster Parents" (at about 20:30 minutes on Omny.fm)

Well those checks didn't seem to help William much, IMO.

And it seems that there was some assessment being done on William's behaviour. On the last visit with biological mother there was an extra person to assess William. This was at Macquarie Centre on August 21, 2014, and mother also noted that William had a bruise/ black eye and looked thin. Could be a sign of neglect, IMO.

From Candace Sutton : News.com: …..” William's foster mother said in her statement that William was being assessed by a female community service worker currently to see if there are any behavioural issues. The community service worker, who accompanied two Salvation Army supervisors on the last visit, "is trying to figure out if the kids need any help", the birth mother stated. "I am a bit worried about (my daughter) and William because I think they're a bit too skinny.”

 

[31550]

Transcript from above "The Foster Parents"

19:35​

Speaker 2​

William's foster care worker went to the family's house on the fifth of September twenty fourteen, so that's nine days before William goes missing, and the records say that William ran up and hugged his caseworker around his legs. William was wearing his Spider Man costume, which was his favorite, and the foster mum said William's behavior had been a struggle since the last contact visit with his parents, and for a while there'd been this back and forth where William's foster mother wanted to have fewer contact visits and William's birth mother wanted more. The foster parents wanted to formally adopt William, but they feared his birth mother would fight that in court. One thing that does strike me about this case is a lot of it comes down to judgments on motherhood. Do you.​

​

William was wearing his Spiderman costume when the case worker visited on 5 Sep. Presumably the case worker would have seen the photos of William taken just nine days later and been able to verify it was in fact the same suit? Why are we even questioning this?

William ran up and hugged his case worker, yet FM still considered William's behaviour a struggle, having trouble settling him into bed at night, sometimes taking 20 minutes or so. So it seems William's challenging behaviour was only towards certain people? Why would William show affection towards his case worker that we never see between him and FM?

What I find concerning is the FM's apparent naive / nonchalant concern that William and his sister were "too thin" or bruised, or difficult to settle, and blame being laid at the bio parents / contact visits for William's behavioural issues. These visits were only an hour or two, once a month or so. She (FM) was supposed to be his primary carer but looked for outside help with the children's behaviour and physical and mental well-being. She took no responsibility for the bruises he presented at access visits. This is the woman who supposedly wanted to adopt William, thereby becoming his SOLE and PERMANENT guardian, not just his temporary carer. Wouldn't you expect that before taking this step, a stable, trusting, and ongoing relationship was established?

 

[stormbird]

Transcript from above "The Foster Parents"

19:35​

Speaker 2​

William's foster care worker went to the family's house on the fifth of September twenty fourteen, so that's nine days before William goes missing, and the records say that William ran up and hugged his caseworker around his legs. William was wearing his Spider Man costume, which was his favorite, and the foster mum said William's behavior had been a struggle since the last contact visit with his parents, and for a while there'd been this back and forth where William's foster mother wanted to have fewer contact visits and William's birth mother wanted more. The foster parents wanted to formally adopt William, but they feared his birth mother would fight that in court. One thing that does strike me about this case is a lot of it comes down to judgments on motherhood. Do you.​

​

William was wearing his Spiderman costume when the case worker visited on 5 Sep. Presumably the case worker would have seen the photos of William taken just nine days later and been able to verify it was in fact the same suit? Why are we even questioning this?

William ran up and hugged his case worker, yet FM still considered William's behaviour a struggle, having trouble settling him into bed at night, sometimes taking 20 minutes or so. So it seems William's challenging behaviour was only towards certain people? Why would William show affection towards his case worker that we never see between him and FM?

What I find concerning is the FM's apparent naive / nonchalant concern that William and his sister were "too thin" or bruised, or difficult to settle, and blame being laid at the bio parents / contact visits for William's behavioural issues. These visits were only an hour or two, once a month or so. She (FM) was supposed to be his primary carer but looked for outside help with the children's behaviour and physical and mental well-being. She took no responsibility for the bruises he presented at access visits. This is the woman who supposedly wanted to adopt William, thereby becoming his SOLE and PERMANENT guardian, not just his temporary carer. Wouldn't you expect that before taking this step, a stable, trusting, and ongoing relationship was established?

Just on the adoption issue, William was already on a long-term care plan which meant he would already be staying with the foster parents until the age of 18. That had been decided by a court or courts in 2013, I think, or maybe even 2012. There is information online if anyone wants to search for it; from memory I think Overington's podcast had an episode looking at foster care. I think it said that there were not many differences between long-term care and adoption except that adoptive parents would not need to seek Department approval for things like medical care or travel (foster parents can't authorise that sort of thing themselves). Someone correct this if it's wrong: NSW then and now has an open adoption policy - adopted children continue to visit their birth families, presumably in much the same way they do when in long-term care.

 

[31550]

Just on the adoption issue, William was already on a long-term care plan which meant he would already be staying with the foster parents until the age of 18. That had been decided by a court or courts in 2013, I think, or maybe even 2012. There is information online if anyone wants to search for it; from memory I think Overington's podcast had an episode looking at foster care. I think it said that there were not many differences between long-term care and adoption except that adoptive parents would not need to seek Department approval for things like medical care or travel (foster parents can't authorise that sort of thing themselves). Someone correct this if it's wrong: NSW then and now has an open adoption policy - adopted children continue to visit their birth families, presumably in much the same way they do when in long-term care.

Adoption is a legal process which is permanent. The adoptive parents become legal guardians permanently, with similar rights as biological parents.

Foster care AFAIK is never permanent. Although there are long-term placements, these are always at the discretion of the Family Court, and can only exist (at most) until the child or young person becomes a legal adult. Even a long-term placement can be altered or revoked by agreement or by Court Order. Whether or not the biological parents retain access of any type is also a matter for the Court to decide. In foster care, the State remains the legal guardian of the child or young person. The carers have limited rights, and need to still get approval from FACS (usually via the care agency) for major decisions affecting the child or young person.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Opinion

You are assuming that the existence of A Spiderman suit proves then that the verandah scene was with that suit..quite the contrary. The existence of 6 people in reflections and on high balcony proves it wasn't that day. As does the patch of bush/ vine with flowers in front of window not there on 18th. walk through yet there in window on the photos.. the base photos were substituted from a prior function. Each of the 4 had high neck and older style Suit faded lines and to me W looked younger.. The 5th didn't because it was A newer suit and W cloned into the picture but probably bday. Why? Because at McD the neck photo had to be hidden. So it was with the cloning and edits to anomalies between suit patterns

We have no proof that there was only one suit. Indeed the fact that GJ spent considerable time was probably because there were multiple and they tried to verify which were on verandah shots. it seems fruitless to focus on a suit when proving it's purchase doesn't advance the case anyway. You are suggesting that the suit worn was distinctive and not available in Aust..where did you get that from? A book? Who got it from who? Do you know? Did they have older ones? You know none of this only what you've read.


When you decipher evidence you have to have mutually exclusive event. Then it's black or white. Yes or no. The issue of the suit is never going to satisfy that criteria .....so to me is wasted effort. even if they crawl over financial records you don't and will never know it's not a present or paid with cash at a stall of a Balinese vendor who orders shipments to sell direct at markets. You will never close that loop because of the permutations.

 

[31550]

where did you get that from? A book?

Well, two books for a start. And it's been widely reported, and never challenged by anyone with any authority or expertise.

Chumley says:

The other notable feature of the photo is the one everyone immediately recognises: the little boy’s Spiderman suit. It’s of a design only manufactured in Indonesia: 100 per cent polyester, red on the front and mostly royal blue on the back and under the sleeves.​

​

... ​

​

Anna mentioned to police that William’s Spidey suit had a hood that went with it. They’d left it at home that weekend, a fact that I found beautifully poetic​

​

Overington says:

We know for certain that William, when he disappeared, was wearing a Spider-Man suit. It was two-piece, not one-piece, and it has been described as red, but it wasn’t just red, it was fire-engine red.​

...​

He wanted to wear his Spider-Man suit, purchased just a few weeks earlier during the trip to Bali.​

...​

Detective Jubelin also revealed in the interview that he had ordered the same, two-piece suit that William had been wearing from the same Bali shop, and he wanted to show it off, ​

​

​

You know none of this only what you've read.

These are the two pre-eminent authors on this subject, who have researched and written books. They are both absolutely convinced that William was wearing the Spiderman suit purchased in Bali when he disappeared. SFR are similarly absolutely convinced.

All anyone else knows (including you) is what they have read.

What proof do you have that there was more than one suit? And what authority and expertise do you have to make such a determination that places you in a better position than Chumley, Overington or SFR?

 

[Underarrest_]

Types of Foster Care | MacKillop Family Services

There are many types of foster care. You can provide care for a weekend, a few weeks, a few months or even years. You choose the type of care that suits…

www.mackillop.org.au

Just adding this link for anyone interested in the different types of care foster carers can provide.

 

[Lady O]

Zero doubt.

(At this particular moment in time)

 

[Lady O]

So following on from ARB's posts about seeing things in the windows, I thought I'd give it a go myself. Using my editing program to tweak the highlights, shadows and midtones, etc, I have come up with this image.

Initially, I though the image on the left was a white dog. But now, I realise that it is probably a Polar Bear (see it's white fur, black nose and eyes). The middle image is definitely a Koala, absolutely no doubt. you can see it's two ears, little eyes and his hands crossed in front of him as he squats in the window. Then we have the image on the right. It is clearly a little animal with a narrow face, big black eyes and short nose with black nostrils. It is either a racoon or a possum. In between the racoon/possom and Koala (which is hard to see in this picture) is a male lion peeking out from behind the racoon/possum.

In front of the Polar Bear is a box which looks like a picnic basket. So I conclude that these are not real animals but are stuffed animals and this is a Teddy Bear's Picnic.