Review Round 9, 2022 - Adelaide vs. Brisbane Lions
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So all of those combos involve a resting ruck. What you're suggesting now is no resting ruck, just a Ruck sitting on the pine and a forward taking over for maybe 25 percent of the game.
In a way our forward/ ruck dilemma is magnified by our small forwards and their attributes. We're lucky enough to have 3 smalls that are gun high marks as well as geniuses when the ball's on the ground. Playing 3 specialist tall forwards might mean less involvement from our small forwards.
To my mind Linc, Charles and Rainer are more damaging when they're stretching the attributes of their opponent. Let's face it Rainer, linc and Charlie would be the hardest matchups in the league, If you're opposition coach do you put a marking/ interceptor on Linc or do you put a small zippy back pocket type. if we can make those matchups even harder then that's great.
I think playing the three talls will be less productive than Dan, Eric, Linc, Charles, Rainer and the resting ruck, usually Fort. The decision would be much closer if we could rely on Joe to be a competitive second ruck. But he's nowhere near Fort in this category.
I thought we were trying to improve from last year........we went on a mission after last season to get a second ruck because Oscar needed help.......We got a diamond in the rough with Fort.....we should use him. He adds experience, aggression, tap ruckman skills with on the ground skill, marking around the ground and great goal kicking.
I agree.
That's why when Daniher, Hippwood and McStay are all available, it's going to be a tough call on which of Fort or Oscar misses out
That's the reality of it.
It's a trade off.
Do we gain more from a 3 tall, one Ruck structure than we do from a 2/2 combo?
Fagan has already pretty much pre-empted that scenario.
I agree.....just.... but if Fort can just play a "high post" position he takes an opponent, possibly 2 and it frees the more mobile players. And then you've got your second ruck and we saw how much drive he gave us after half time against the Crows.
I know, I'd hate to be a selector!!!!You're going to get from both sides but I So much like the idea of Rainer as our third tall with all the talents that he's now showing. For me playing our 3 talls severely restricts our defensive pressure and makes us more predictable and easier to defend.......plus of course no second ruck
Dalions
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It’s Rayner by the way.
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We’re trying to improve on how we played in finals when we only had Daniher and Fullarton for most of the game. The period where we went 10-1 with the 3 tall forwards and Without Neale would be an improvement
- Aug 21, 2013
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How many weeks have we had Oscar, Joe, Eric and Dan in the same side.
Oscar seemed playing injured most of last year as well. Which I think people forget when thinking of some poorer games.
I still rather the 2 ruck as well. Although we might need to see how things go.
Spanner in the works is if Joe is not doing a chop out for Oscar because of shoulder, then does Dan have to do it?
or we go AhChee or someone with a leap for 10 mins or so a game.
Oscar seemed playing injured most of last year as well. Which I think people forget when thinking of some poorer games.
I still rather the 2 ruck as well. Although we might need to see how things go.
Spanner in the works is if Joe is not doing a chop out for Oscar because of shoulder, then does Dan have to do it?
or we go AhChee or someone with a leap for 10 mins or so a game.
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Probably the other issue I didn't realise until I looked into our clearance differential on the weekend is that because of our contested style of play we have more ruck contests in our games than most other teams.
Another consideration would be; do we need 2 rucks to beat Melbourne? I think most weeks we could get away with Oscar doing 80% of the ruckwork but maybe not against Melbourne.
We also have the option to rest Oscar and freshen him and let Fort ruck a game with the 3 key forwards playing
Another consideration would be; do we need 2 rucks to beat Melbourne? I think most weeks we could get away with Oscar doing 80% of the ruckwork but maybe not against Melbourne.
We also have the option to rest Oscar and freshen him and let Fort ruck a game with the 3 key forwards playing
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And that is the kicker.. Do we try to setup a team to beat the demons or be the best team we can.
Most of the top 8 sides have 2 rucks or a forward that a good chop out.
Dan/Joe or someone making a contest like AhChee etc against Gawn/Jackson for 15 mins a game.
Is that enough for them to get a run on? Stef/English got well beaten by them in the GF
If you also look at the teams in the 8 now
Cats have 2 rucks Stanley/Blicavs and Hawkins forward.
Tigers seem to be finding form and go Nank/Soldo
Saints Ryder/Marshall
Swans now back to Hickey/Ladhams
The others
Freo go Darcy mainly with Lobb who can chop out.
Blue down to De Koning at the moment although hoping get Pittonet back before finals and go two.
Cripps doing a chop out at the moment he cannot tap to himself
or can he 
Yer time to move the old codger on.
Jim Stynes11
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What did you miss? The sarcasm, I reckon
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And that is the kicker.. Do we try to setup a team to beat the demons or be the best team we can.
Most of the top 8 sides have 2 rucks or a forward that a good chop out.
Dan/Joe or someone making a contest like AhChee etc against Gawn/Jackson for 15 mins a game.
Is that enough for them to get a run on? Stef/English got well beaten by them in the GF
If you also look at the teams in the 8 now
Cats have 2 rucks Stanley/Blicavs and Hawkins forward.
Tigers seem to be finding form and go Nank/Soldo
Saints Ryder/Marshall
Swans now back to Hickey/Ladhams
The others
Freo go Darcy mainly with Lobb who can chop out.
Blue down to De Koning at the moment although hoping get Pittonet back before finals and go two.
Cripps doing a chop out at the moment he cannot tap to himself
I don't think it's that clear cut though. Melbourne would probably be a better team if Jackson was as good a forward as he was a ruck and as good a ruck as he was a forward.
But do we miss an opportunity by giving them ruck dominance when they put him in the middle? Would we be better off breaking even in the ruck and getting a bit more ascendency in the middle when their second string is in there?
Gadzorks
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And that is the kicker.. Do we try to setup a team to beat the demons or be the best team we can.
Most of the top 8 sides have 2 rucks or a forward that a good chop out.
Dan/Joe or someone making a contest like AhChee etc against Gawn/Jackson for 15 mins a game.
Is that enough for them to get a run on? Stef/English got well beaten by them in the GF
If you also look at the teams in the 8 now
Cats have 2 rucks Stanley/Blicavs and Hawkins forward.
Tigers seem to be finding form and go Nank/Soldo
Saints Ryder/Marshall
Swans now back to Hickey/Ladhams
The others
Freo go Darcy mainly with Lobb who can chop out.
Blue down to De Koning at the moment although hoping get Pittonet back before finals and go two.
Cripps doing a chop out at the moment he cannot tap to himself
The demons have Gawn. He's like an extra Queen in a chess board,. And the reason they have their neck out in front.
Neither O or fort can match him so our team has to find a set up to neutralize him (for four quarters of footy only). Two trucks can possible best him in the truck, but it leaves them with an extra dedicated forward.
I'd put money on there being many specific tactical meetings about how to beat Melbourne starting in the pre season, not just before the game with them
interesting thought about beating Melbs. But I think we'll kick more goals if we go Rayner as our third tall rather than Dan, Eric, Joe. Plus of course there's the defensive pressure angle.
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I'd go the complete opposite way. We need competitive talls to stop their intercept game. They don't run and carry the ball out of their backline but intercept mark and chip it out. This is probably an example where we could go with 3 key forwards and 2 rucks IMO.
Defensive pressure means SFA if they intercept everything
On top of which Rayners long kicking would be invaluable up the ground giving us deep inside 50 entries so if they intercept it then they'll have the ball in a less damaging position.
Nunez
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Gawn has mentioned in the past how tough Oscar is to play on.
I expect McStay will play a negating role on Gawn in marking contests.
- Oct 13, 2015
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I don't expect Oscar/Fort to be able to do much against Gawn and Jackson if they both play. Only benefit would be giving Oscar more rotations but he's still not going to be able to run with Jackson anway.
Far better to have 3 good talls compete in the air and ensure we get the footy at ground level.
- Aug 21, 2013
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I agree with peoples points
Three good talls forward great and better option forward then Fort or Oscar..
Also agree you need to stop Lever, May etc intercepting and not bomb it in.
Yes Jackson not as good as forward as Hippy, Dan and Joe
Gawn on his day is unstoppable by almost any ruck.
Although the engine is where Demons win.
Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Viney, Langdon.
If you basically give up first tap everytime Oscar has a rest.
All it will take is a couple of mins while he off for their engine to hurt you with goals.
Here is the worm from the third qtr 2021 GF Demons v Dogs
Stef is solid ruck although not what he once was and I really do not rate English much in the ruck
So below I think is a good example what the Demons can do to you against a lesser ruck.
This is all Jackson while Gawn rests forward.
16 min mark Fritsch goals against the flow
Ruck contest Jackson v Stef - Oliver . Petracca past pack with Gawns help Fritsch goals again
Ruck Contest Jackson v Stef - Petracca to Ben Brown goal
So three from 1 goal straight from centre.
29 min mark Petracca kicks a great goal
Ruck contest Jackson v English - Vinay, Oliver, Petracca to Sparrow goal
Ruck contest Jackson v English - Vinay, Jackson, Oliver Goal
Again three goals from one goal.. So yes I worry. As said no use have the best 6 forwards that ever played if you do not touch the ball.
I also worry about our mids defensively as well as ruck..
Although to just hand a team with two good rucks a free hit is a worry.
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The team that's done best against Melbourne this year is the team that did the logical thing and brought it it low to a lead or a contest or bouncy otherwise . Melbourne's backline isn't overly flash when the ball hits the deck , or they have to run onto a ground ball.
I'm not against playing our 3 talls because they're all very good players but we have the ammunition to really test Melbourne if we don't try to fight fire with fire and really get them where they're vulnerable. At ground level.
You also have Gawn drifting across half back where he's impenetrable in a one on one or just by himself with his excellent reach and judgement so why teams persist kicking it high when he's in the vicinity is beyond me.
I'm not against playing our 3 talls because they're all very good players but we have the ammunition to really test Melbourne if we don't try to fight fire with fire and really get them where they're vulnerable. At ground level.
You also have Gawn drifting across half back where he's impenetrable in a one on one or just by himself with his excellent reach and judgement so why teams persist kicking it high when he's in the vicinity is beyond me.
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martinson I agree if you get the ball to ground we dangerous.
I honestly think our forward and back lines better then the demons
Ruck on best day I say Jackson close to Oscar/Fort and where Gawn is next level
and they are just ahead for mids on their best day
Clugga, Neale, Lyon, Zorko, Rayner, Bailey, Berry & AhChee vs Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Langdon, Pickett, Harmes, Brayshaw & Jordan.
I say we play Berry on Langdon. You really should tag Oliver as well. Although not sure we can go two run with players.
It go against our normal game plan. Berry been doing a great job run with although his stats not been high.
Something I say he work on that Goal last week helped.
If you look at someone like Touk Miller used to hurt you and hold his player.
I honestly think our forward and back lines better then the demons
Ruck on best day I say Jackson close to Oscar/Fort and where Gawn is next level
and they are just ahead for mids on their best day
Clugga, Neale, Lyon, Zorko, Rayner, Bailey, Berry & AhChee vs Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Langdon, Pickett, Harmes, Brayshaw & Jordan.
I say we play Berry on Langdon. You really should tag Oliver as well. Although not sure we can go two run with players.
It go against our normal game plan. Berry been doing a great job run with although his stats not been high.
Something I say he work on that Goal last week helped.
If you look at someone like Touk Miller used to hurt you and hold his player.
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- Oct 13, 2015
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Sometimes you have no choice bu to kick it high and long though. Basically I think you have two distinct speeds you need to be able to play with:
1. Move it fast through the corridor, or through switching, and look to hit players on the lead or get it on the deck inside forward 50 - this can be either through hands or by hitting short kicks, but you have to be accurate and you have to do it quickly so they don't have time to reset their team zone.
2. If you have to, be prepared to kick long and slow down the line once you have set up the structure to even up the contest and force a stoppage. This is probably more a defensive strategy to avoid a turnover against you, and you can't allow Gawn or Leve/May to intercept. However, better that they intercept long down the line than from a short kick. We actually did this pretty well in that regular season game in the first half because Hippy had his best 40 minutes of contesed marking of his creer basically - this went away in the second half.
Both of these are bloody hard to do and you have to have both in your arsenal imo.
Beyond anything else, forward 50 entries have to be deep unless you are good enough to hit a player on the lead. If Melbourne want to run it the length of the ground they have to be doing it from within 30m of their own goal. If they turn the ball over on D50 or outside it, you do not have enough time to recover and get your defence in place. We are a bit quicker in the back half this year but the midfield still lacks the power running that the dees have.
