Oppo Camp Jack Ginnivan (Traded to Hawks 2023)

[Jasper84]

It's not cheating or some conspiracy by the umpires or the AFL.

It's the umpires being influenced by the media and probably taking some of their coaching too literally.

They are are presuming he's faking it every time because that's literally what the media are portraying.

No no Kirbs. It's a conspiracy on the world stage. The AFL, media and the umpires have devised a fiendish plot centred around punishing CFC and specifically Ginnivan. Is it no coincidence that they stopped protecting the neck of a certain player only once we started playing day games? And that player just happens to have "Van" in his name? It's become very clear that the AFL, in conjunction with the umpires, are facilitating the new world order of, you guessed it, Reverse Vampires. We're through the looking glass here people.

 

[Couch Coach]

No no Kirbs. It's a conspiracy on the world stage. The AFL, media and the umpires have devised a fiendish plot centred around punishing CFC and specifically Ginnivan. Is it no coincidence that they stopped protecting the neck of a certain player only once we started playing day games? And that player just happens to have "Van" in his name? It's become very clear that the AFL, in conjunction with the umpires, are facilitating the new world order of, you guessed it, Reverse Vampires. We're through the looking glass here people.

exactly...wait you are not being sarcastic are you?

 

[Jasper84]

exactly...wait you are not being sarcastic are you?

Maybe a little. I'm not a rocket surgeon but I do genuinely hope that a certain poster, who is clearly using CFC as a means to project their own deep emotional trauma and victimisation, eventually gets the help that they need instead of "ignoring" the issue.

 

[Markfs]

The thing is....its NOTHING new. Players have been getting away with staging for generations. Bartlett did it in the 60's and 70's (and 80's the old B) Nicholls was adept at throwing himself forward to get "in the back" paid (Bob Johnston was the best ever at that tactic but Paul Salmon was pretty good at it too)
Little blokes like Goggin and Vinnie Cattoggio played for frees all the time.

Now we've had Selwood getting away with it for a decade, smart players like Pendles have followed suit as have a plethora of others (Puopolo, Higgins, Papley, Rioli) and its been very profitable for them because the AFL has gone gaga over concussion legal fears and so head high contact has been focussed on. Whats the easiest way to get a shot at goal these days? Feign head high contact from a forward stoppage! 20 years ago kids were taught not to go in head down because you opened yourself up to a hip or a knee....now they're taught to go in low with their heads down.

This thing with Jack Ginnivan is about him being an upstart. Umps love paying renowned players free kicks and give them 100% more leeway to bend the rules. But the establishment doesn't like an upstart that's (in their opinion) too big for his boots. They don't like him showing up the loopholes in their system. The fact that he's able to use the laws to get free shots at goal upsets ex taggers like "Kaneo" who would have belted Ginni after he'd given away 5 free kicks in the first half of their first game! The AFL boffins don't like it either because Jack (and a few others) are so good at what they do that if the laws are applied....then Jack will be kicking 4-5 goals a game from this stuff....and we can't have Collingwood having an advantage like that now can we? (Remember when Swanny used to dominate off our high rotation game??? Or when we'd send players to altitude to recover faster ... the AFL is so quick to react whenever CFC appears to be gaining any perceived advantage over the opposition!)

No...the AFL and the umps and the media will continue their "re-education" program on Jack Ginnivan until he either gets knocked out, stops going near the ball or plays 150 games by which time they will accept that he's a proper player now that deserves the respect and the protection of the laws as they are written.

Don't you think Ginnivan would fare better if he just reined in the mayo, and gave up those pleading looks at the umpires?

 

[LuckyLee]

Surely we'll compile a tape of all Ginni's not-paid frees and send it off to the head of AFL umpiring (with Gil CC'd) seeking a "please explain"?

 

[Couch Coach]

Maybe a little. I'm not a rocket surgeon but I do genuinely hope that a certain poster, who is clearly using CFC as a means to project their own deep emotional trauma and victimisation, eventually gets the help that they need instead of "ignoring" the issue.

What is a "Reverse Vampire" anyway?

Do they:
- Only come out in the day?
- Give blood rather than take it?
- A bat that turns into a person rather than a person into a bat?

Wouldn't a "reverse Vampire" just be called a Eripmav?

 

[Gaspard]

The problem here is that the AFL has known this is a problem since Selwood developed the shrug. They allowed him, and the others that quickly picked up the technique to flourish. Most good players don't do it a lot and are forgiven. Until Ginnivan, nobody celebrated its success, but just took their free and played on with a private smirk. Ginnivan has rubbed his opponents noses in it, not least Selwood. The powers in the game don't like that, and have found an easy solution. Umpire Ginnivan out of the game and the problem will go away. It won't of course, but the game's rulers will pretend it has.

The discussion here mostly ignores the wider issue. Football is heading for a financial and publicity crisis over concussion. The policy makers have no idea how the game can be adapted to deal with concussion. They are thrashing around with protocols and rule tweaks, and in Ginnivan's case, attacking a player as if he is the problem with their rules. They have to find a formula that protects players from concussion while maintaining a high impact game style. I would suggest that this is not possible. The nature of the game is set to change and it is not Jack Ginnivan's fault. He is a symptom, not a cause.

 

[Matrix10]

You know when Carey comes out in support of a Collingwood player there is something very pertinent to it been an issue that needs to be resolved , it is incumbent on the tackler to apply a tackle that is within the rules , ie not below the knees , not above the shoulder , not hard . Put aside your media indulged bias maggots and AFL. Then again , when they are all drinking from the same filthy click bait trough , it’s hard for them to keep their snouts out . $$$$$

 

[jonbe54]

The problem here is that the AFL has known this is a problem since Selwood developed the shrug. They allowed him, and the others that quickly picked up the technique to flourish. Most good players don't do it a lot and are forgiven. Until Ginnivan, nobody celebrated its success, but just took their free and played on with a private smirk. Ginnivan has rubbed his opponents noses in it, not least Selwood. The powers in the game don't like that, and have found an easy solution. Umpire Ginnivan out of the game and the problem will go away. It won't of course, but the game's rulers will pretend it has.

The discussion here mostly ignores the wider issue. Football is heading for a financial and publicity crisis over concussion. The policy makers have no idea how the game can be adapted to deal with concussion. They are thrashing around with protocols and rule tweaks, and in Ginnivan's case, attacking a player as if he is the problem with their rules. They have to find a formula that protects players from concussion while maintaining a high impact game style. I would suggest that this is not possible. The nature of the game is set to change and it is not Jack Ginnivan's fault. He is a symptom, not a cause.

Exactly!

Ginni is NOT the problem - he is acting within the rules.

The AFL and in particular the rules committee is the problem.

Firstly ALL AFL rules are far too loosely framed - as far as I know AFL is the only major team sport which tries to divine intent and incorporate it into it's rule set. NO OTHER SPORT DOES THIS.

A good rule is simple, direct and NOT open to interpretation.

By forcing umpires to decode the rules committee latest interpretation the AFL have opened up a Pandora's box of confusing and conflicting rulings which - as we have seen with Ginni the rules committe and the umpiring panel are prepared to change on a 1 hourly basis - even though they call it 'coaching'.

 

[doofdoof]

Who is dropping their knees in the tackle?

I'd swear it was the tackler.

 

[TheFreshBinnivan]

SO?

Selwood has done it his entire career.

Others do it and get rewarded with frees.

It is reckless disregard of the duty of care and it is victimization.

Sure.

But if I'm Jack Ginnivan, I'm focusing on what I can control.

I can't control how umpires perceive me.

Idealistically we would want them to pay them when they see them.

Realistically, the game moves at such a pace it's incredibly difficult for an umpire to discern what is a legitimate high tackle and one that is aided by a dropping off the body. Thus, as supporters, we have to accept some are going to get paid and some are not going to get paid, rightly or wrongly.

If Ginnivan uses the tactic sparingly, it's pragmatically going to produce better results overall.

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[jmac70]

I’m a massive fan of Sick Boy. Never drops his head despite all the crap thrown his way. He’s due for a bag soon, and I reckon he’d love to do it against Essendon.

 

[jonbe54]

Sure.

But if I'm Jack Ginnivan, I'm focusing on what I can control.

I can't control how umpires perceive me.

Idealistically we would want them to pay them when they see them.

Realistically, the game moves at such a pace it's incredibly difficult for an umpire to discern what is a legitimate high tackle and one that is aided by a dropping off the body. Thus, as supporters, we have to accept some are going to get paid and some are not going to get paid, rightly or wrongly.

If Ginnivan uses the tactic sparingly, it's pragmatically going to produce better results overall.

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It's not so much the pace of the game it's the pace of rule re-interpretation - practically on the run now.

He lowers his body WELL BEFORE the tackler arrives.

The AFL is victimizing him for playing within the rules - it's that simple.

If Ginni gets seriously hurt by players piling onto him because they know the AFL declared open season on him there is going to be one HELLUVA stink.

 

[nahnah]

He's always the victim yet oppo fans and commentators make him out to be the villain, insane.

 

[nahnah]

'he's a flog' because he celebrated against freo before kicking a goal is not a good enough reason

 

[Jasper84]

Bullshit mate……..I am assuming you still live in Queensland so your judgment of him is based from the TV.


If you don’t think Ginnivan is being umpired differently atm then I can’t help you.

In the first qtr against North he was playing on my side of the ground and he was held and pushed off the ball the whole quarter……playing for frees is irrelevant if the free is there.

Duckwood has done it for years why is it an issue now when a 19 year old kid is doing it?

I've never lived in Queensland and have been to games this year.

I didn't ask for your help.

Lots of players get niggled off the ball and don't get frees. That's your Collingwood bias kicking in.



The difference between Selwood and Ginnivan is that Selwood doesn't play with the sole intention to win a free. If Selwood doesn't draw the free he continues to stand up in the tackle and dishes it off to team mates. Ginnivan doesn't do that yet and always goes to ground. It's the same reason Pendles isn't called out for drawing frees.

 

[well left]

The difference between Selwood and Ginnivan is that Selwood doesn't play with the sole intention to win a free. If Selwood doesn't draw the free he continues to stand up in the tackle and dishes it off to team mates. Ginnivan doesn't do that yet and always goes to ground. It's the same reason Pendles isn't called out for drawing frees.

Yep I agree this might be the difference.

As a rule I don’t like agreeing with Leigh Montagna but he rightly pointed out a couple of plays where Ginnivan could have set up a goal but his instinct was to get the free kick rather than keep the ball moving.

The free kick was there but it looks like subconsciously the umpires aren’t paying it because he’s clearly looking for it rather than trying to make the play. I think that subtle shift back would make a difference.


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[jonbe54]

Yep I agree this might be the difference.

As a rule I don’t like agreeing with Leigh Montagna but he rightly pointed out a couple of plays where Ginnivan could have set up a goal but his instinct was to get the free kick rather than keep the ball moving.

The free kick was there but it looks like subconsciously the umpires aren’t paying it because he’s clearly looking for it rather than trying to make the play. I think that subtle shift back would make a difference.


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It's not the umpire's job to work out what he's thinking.

Their job is to judge if he is taken too high.

End of story.

 

[Laurie Holden]

I’m a massive fan of Sick Boy. Never drops his head despite all the crap thrown his way. He’s due for a bag soon, and I reckon he’d love to do it against Essendon.

Sick boy with sicks for the day? I’ll see myself out.

 

[Laurie Holden]

The thing is....its NOTHING new. Players have been getting away with staging for generations. Bartlett did it in the 60's and 70's (and 80's the old B) Nicholls was adept at throwing himself forward to get "in the back" paid (Bob Johnston was the best ever at that tactic but Paul Salmon was pretty good at it too)
Little blokes like Goggin and Vinnie Cattoggio played for frees all the time.

Now we've had Selwood getting away with it for a decade, smart players like Pendles have followed suit as have a plethora of others (Puopolo, Higgins, Papley, Rioli) and its been very profitable for them because the AFL has gone gaga over concussion legal fears and so head high contact has been focussed on. Whats the easiest way to get a shot at goal these days? Feign head high contact from a forward stoppage! 20 years ago kids were taught not to go in head down because you opened yourself up to a hip or a knee....now they're taught to go in low with their heads down.

This thing with Jack Ginnivan is about him being an upstart. Umps love paying renowned players free kicks and give them 100% more leeway to bend the rules. But the establishment doesn't like an upstart that's (in their opinion) too big for his boots. They don't like him showing up the loopholes in their system. The fact that he's able to use the laws to get free shots at goal upsets ex taggers like "Kaneo" who would have belted Ginni after he'd given away 5 free kicks in the first half of their first game! The AFL boffins don't like it either because Jack (and a few others) are so good at what they do that if the laws are applied....then Jack will be kicking 4-5 goals a game from this stuff....and we can't have Collingwood having an advantage like that now can we? (Remember when Swanny used to dominate off our high rotation game??? Or when we'd send players to altitude to recover faster ... the AFL is so quick to react whenever CFC appears to be gaining any perceived advantage over the opposition!)

No...the AFL and the umps and the media will continue their "re-education" program on Jack Ginnivan until he either gets knocked out, stops going near the ball or plays 150 games by which time they will accept that he's a proper player now that deserves the respect and the protection of the laws as they are written.

Goes beyond footy. We live in straya mate.

 

[Black_White]

There we go.
If ever we needed proof of an anti Collingwood stance from the competition hierarchy, this is it.
For over a decade a player from another club has been lauded for his ability to milk the head high tackle rule.
It’s been a consistent act from a player who has hasp Premiership success and been a leading club captain.
The type of player that youngsters take notice of and model their own game on.
Is it a stretch to consider that Jack has seen Sellwood’s ability and modelled his game on this? Maybe taking it to the next level?
So after a decade or more of a player using the rules to advantage one player comes along, and by social media shows how he takes this advantage, suddenly it’s illegal?
And after years of the AFL spouting it’s “care” for the players head, we see the head being targeted without fear of repercussions?
You cannot write this stuff as fiction. Because we are seeing it right in front of us as non fiction.
If Ginnivan played for Geelong we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

 

[Laurie Holden]

There we go.
If ever we needed proof of an anti Collingwood stance from the competition hierarchy, this is it.
For over a decade a player from another club has been lauded for his ability to milk the head high tackle rule.
It’s been a consistent act from a player who has hasp Premiership success and been a leading club captain.
The type of player that youngsters take notice of and model their own game on.
Is it a stretch to consider that Jack has seen Sellwood’s ability and modelled his game on this? Maybe taking it to the next level?
So after a decade or more of a player using the rules to advantage one player comes along, and by social media shows how he takes this advantage, suddenly it’s illegal?
And after years of the AFL spouting it’s “care” for the players head, we see the head being targeted without fear of repercussions?
You cannot write this stuff as fiction. Because we are seeing it right in front of us as non fiction.
If Ginnivan played for Geelong we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Posting as your comment brought back memories that needed to be shared.

 

[well left]

It's not the umpire's job to work out what he's thinking.

Their job is to judge if he is taken too high.

End of story.

In theory you’re right but they apparently are human so thinking comes into it and the AFL loves nothing more than a grey area.

That said Jack knows the ruling now, even if it’s wrong so should be able to focus on winning the ball and kicking goals.


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[Black_White]

Posting as your comment brought back memories that needed to be shared.

Apparently the umpire needed a new car and the Crows fans obliged with his insurance claim….

 

[domus]

I don't know if this has already been posted but check the video examples of players doing exactly what Jack does and being awarded the free kick
McRae should march down to AFL headquarters and demand a logical, clear explanation for the different approach when Jack is involved