List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[Apex36]

Still don’t understand why Witts went for nothing…

Because we sat on our hands while other clubs picked off GC’s available earlier picks for lesser players.

 

[legendstatus]

Timing as well - Dont recall too many upset when Witts left, wasn’t much chop at the time. Good case for giving players more time perhaps


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[Pleasedontfail11]

We're you thinking that in the 2nd quarter when we couldn't buy a mark forward of centre with a fistful of 100s?

It's not we don't need one it's we need BOTH on top of clearance mids.

I was more thinking in the 2nd that we were getting smashed in the midfield and needed someone to win a clearance. I'm not sure if a FF makes much of a difference when you are struggling to get it forward of the centre. When we did get it forward we were fairly efficient scoring goals. Don't get me wrong we would all be happy with a King type forward although I think we need the mid a lot more. But I think we need to find the right forward, a lot of those average super tall forwards can be easily stopped and aren't much chop defensively. I'm a big fan of the Ash Johnson and Brody Mihocek types who are good tall and small.

 

[lenny20]

I’m not sure what it is that people see in Kelly other than his surname and KP size, but he’s not making it. Zero competitiveness.

I don't even see the KP size to be honest. He often looks physically outmatched even at the VFL level. If his name was Will Madgen, I doubt anyone would want to keep him.

And speaking of... I never thought I'd say this, but I'm with you on retaining the Madge at this stage. Having a real Madgessaince forward of the ball.

Just further proof that our development coaches have made some sort of tryst with Satan this year, because the sort of progress we're seeing from Ginni, Henry, McCreery, AJ, Carmichael, Murphy, Noble, and now Jack ****ing Madgen, is nothing short of unholy. Simply must be the devil's work.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

The Madge has improved year on year after joining the Pies and I am happy for him to come into the team during finals if needed, however as a 29 year old he doesn't have much scope for improvement and he is getting delisted at years end. The reason why? Kelly, Tyler Brown

21

Tyler Brown

Age

24

Ht

192cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

3star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

1star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

2star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

4star

CL

0.6

3star

, Poulter, Bianco and McMahon all are young with more improvement to come. If we re-rooky him I'm fine with that but we need at least 3 list spots although we will probably delist more for the national draft and his spot is needed for the draft. Delisted at years end Roughead, Cal Brown and Madge the first 3 gone. We need at least 1 more as well because of Carmichael.

 

[magpies42]

Doesn’t really matter any more but he was young clumsy and couldn’t get a game with us was part of it. We didn’t get nothing for him but could have got better.

We got less than nothing, did we even use the pick.

Grundy and Witts were just about on par. They felt Grundy had more upside so they kept him.

We were always going to have to let one go, don’t know why they weren’t better prepared.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

We got less than nothing, did we even use the pick.

Grundy and Witts were just about on par. They felt Grundy had more upside so they kept him.

We were always going to have to let one go, don’t know why they weren’t better prepared.

I think that when we got Grundy at the pick we were all surprised. We then got the services of Mason Cox as a cat B rookie. If one of those two things didn't happen we would still have Witts on our list. We were not playing Witts in the 1sts and once that happened we were not retaining him or getting much in terms of draft capital for him. Witts had showed potential only at that stage and wasn't worth much.

 

[gouki88]

We got less than nothing, did we even use the pick.

Grundy and Witts were just about on par. They felt Grundy had more upside so they kept him.

We were always going to have to let one go, don’t know why they weren’t better prepared.

They absolutely were not on par. Witts played 2 games in his final season with us and 11 the season prior. Grundy played 40 over that two season spell, coming in the top 5 in our B&F in Witts' final season with us.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Timing as well - Dont recall too many upset when Witts left, wasn’t much chop at the time. Good case for giving players more time perhaps


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We had offered him up to gws a year earlier iirc… for Treloar, which might have been a better trade for us. For some reason he knocked back the go home offer. Presumably because he thought he’d make it at Collingwood.

 

[cakewalk06]

I don't even see the KP size to be honest. He often looks physically outmatched even at the VFL level. If his name was Will Madgen, I doubt anyone would want to keep him.

And speaking of... I never thought I'd say this, but I'm with you on retaining the Madge at this stage. Having a real Madgessaince forward of the ball.

Just further proof that our development coaches have made some sort of tryst with Satan this year, because the sort of progress we're seeing from Ginni, Henry, McCreery, AJ, Carmichael, Murphy, Noble, and now Jack ******* Madgen, is nothing short of unholy. Simply must be the devil's work.

this made me laugh.

 

[magpies42]

They absolutely were not on par. Witts played 2 games in his final season with us and 11 the season prior. Grundy played 40 over that two season spell, coming in the top 5 in our B&F in Witts' final season with us.

That is a superficial assessment of the outcome.

Grundy’s improvement in stats and development can largely be attributed to his selection in the team ahead of Witts. Hard to develop and accumulate stats if you’re not playing at the level. He has now surpassed Grundy in terms of value for money.

I never said they were on par either. Comprehension is important. The choice to select Grundy was most probable, hence the decision. Witts qualities and prospects were evident and we should have capitalised on this via trade.

 

[Jasper84]

The Madge has improved year on year after joining the Pies and I am happy for him to come into the team during finals if needed, however as a 29 year old he doesn't have much scope for improvement and he is getting delisted at years end. The reason why? Kelly, Tyler Brown, Poulter, Bianco and McMahon all are young with more improvement to come. If we re-rooky him I'm fine with that but we need at least 3 list spots although we will probably delist more for the national draft and his spot is needed for the draft. Delisted at years end Roughead, Cal Brown and Madge the first 3 gone. We need at least 1 more as well because of Carmichael.

Madge was drafted only a year before Kelly after playing Basketball for 4 years. It's arguable that despite their age differences, Kelly has had more access to elite football pathways and Madge has the bigger scope for improvement.

 

[sr36]

Yup clearance mid or possibly 2 - but we also need a gorilla stopper at full back.

Our defence rocks. The occasional contested mark from a big brute is worth copping in order to have the extra pace, mobility and ground ball ability that our group gives us, both defensively and offensively. I wouldn't be stuffing around with the mix too much. Some extra depth would be nice, but we may already have that in Dean and hopefully McMahon.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Madge was drafted only a year before Kelly after playing Basketball for 4 years. It's arguable that despite their age differences, Kelly has had more access to elite football pathways and Madge has the bigger scope for improvement.

Will Kelly is still 21 as a bloke who is 195+ cm tall he hasn't even physically developed fully yet. As a 30 year old next year the Madge is on a down hill slope physically. Although I get what you are saying that he is still learning the game in some ways and his game skills can still improve.

 

[Scodog10]

I don't even see the KP size to be honest. He often looks physically outmatched even at the VFL level. If his name was Will Madgen, I doubt anyone would want to keep him.

And speaking of... I never thought I'd say this, but I'm with you on retaining the Madge at this stage. Having a real Madgessaince forward of the ball.

Just further proof that our development coaches have made some sort of tryst with Satan this year, because the sort of progress we're seeing from Ginni, Henry, McCreery, AJ, Carmichael, Murphy, Noble, Lipinski, Cox, Cameron, Jaicos and now Jack ******* Madgen, is nothing short of unholy. Simply must be the devil's work.

IMO, that’s his competitiveness not size. The best way I can explain it is if he found a leg with his competitiveness I’d be fine with his size as a KPP even against the monster talls. Take Murphy he’d be shorter than Kelly, but I’m more comfortable with him playing tall because I know he’ll compete.

It’s definitely been a pleasing year on the development front and most will probably point to McRae and co as new voices, but I think it’s the system they’ve implemented as much as anything. I’m under no illusion that it’s about an 8 goal swing between our current position and Essendon’s, but it’s been enjoyable and hopefully provides a platform for future success as well.

 

[jonbe54]

Our defence rocks. The occasional contested mark from a big brute is worth copping in order to have the extra pace, mobility and ground ball ability that our group gives us, both defensively and offensively. I wouldn't be stuffing around with the mix too much. Some extra depth would be nice, but we may already have that in Dean and hopefully McMahon.

I understand where you're coming from but . . . remember Tom Hawkins when Malthouse wouldn't shift a clearly injured read off him??

 

[Scodog10]

The Madge has improved year on year after joining the Pies and I am happy for him to come into the team during finals if needed, however as a 29 year old he doesn't have much scope for improvement and he is getting delisted at years end. The reason why? Kelly, Tyler Brown, Poulter, Bianco and McMahon all are young with more improvement to come. If we re-rooky him I'm fine with that but we need at least 3 list spots although we will probably delist more for the national draft and his spot is needed for the draft. Delisted at years end Roughead, Cal Brown and Madge the first 3 gone. We need at least 1 more as well because of Carmichael.

He really hasn’t! He’s in the midst of a nice little renaissance as a forward, but if we intend to keep him in 2023 as a defender we have rocks in our heads because he’s gone backwards in that role each year since 2018.

 

[Prexm]

The Madge has improved year on year after joining the Pies and I am happy for him to come into the team during finals if needed, however as a 29 year old he doesn't have much scope for improvement and he is getting delisted at years end. The reason why? Kelly, Tyler Brown, Poulter, Bianco and McMahon all are young with more improvement to come. If we re-rooky him I'm fine with that but we need at least 3 list spots although we will probably delist more for the national draft and his spot is needed for the draft. Delisted at years end Roughead, Cal Brown and Madge the first 3 gone. We need at least 1 more as well because of Carmichael.

Carmichael is already covered as the 6th Cat A rookie and Noble goes on to list to replace Roughhead, That would leave 2 senior list spots vacant. Chugg will definately go so that opens another spot which could be main list or rookie list. As you said though there will probably be more given we are likely to bring in more players from other clubs.

 

[sr36]

I understand where you're coming from but . . . remember Tom Hawkins when Malthouse wouldn't shift a clearly injured read off him??

Hawkins is a star and he could seriously trouble our KPDs, but if you go taller, so too could guys like Stengle, Bolton, Fritsch, etc...

I think we cover pack marks well - it's the one one one's where our blokes are in danger due to a lack of size, but those one on ones are not that common and I'd prefer a contested one on one over a slippery guy getting it uncontested due to lesser mobility.

 

[Apex36]

The Madge has improved year on year after joining the Pies and I am happy for him to come into the team during finals if needed, however as a 29 year old he doesn't have much scope for improvement and he is getting delisted at years end. The reason why? Kelly, Tyler Brown, Poulter, Bianco and McMahon all are young with more improvement to come. If we re-rooky him I'm fine with that but we need at least 3 list spots although we will probably delist more for the national draft and his spot is needed for the draft. Delisted at years end Roughead, Cal Brown and Madge the first 3 gone. We need at least 1 more as well because of Carmichael.

At this point I’d say that Kelly is far more likely to be delisted than Madge. Zero competitiveness. Which is a shame because his field kicking would make him a weapon coming out of defence.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

He really hasn’t! He’s in the midst of a nice little renaissance as a forward, but if we intend to keep him in 2023 as a defender we have rocks in our heads because he’s gone backwards in that role each year since 2018.

I fell he has improved although you feel it is the opposite. He started as a poor player as a 26 year old and he has improved to a little below average as a 28-29 year old backman. Although that's just my subjective assessment. This forward thing the club is trying out is interesting though. Maybe it is the renaissance of the Madge as you called it.

 

[Apex36]

Will Kelly is still 21 as a bloke who is 195+ cm tall he hasn't even physically developed fully yet. As a 30 year old next year the Madge is on a down hill slope physically. Although I get what you are saying that he is still learning the game in some ways and his game skills can still improve.

Kelly is 194cm. It’s a height which he could get away with if he had bulk and aggression, but he has neither.

 

[jonbe54]

Hawkins is a star and he could seriously trouble our KPDs, but if you go taller, so too could guys like Stengle, Bolton, Fritsch, etc...

I think we cover pack marks well - it's the one one one's where our blokes are in danger due to a lack of size, but those one on ones are not that common and I'd prefer a contested one on one over a slippery guy getting it uncontested due to lesser mobility.

I understand and am sympathetic to your views, 50+ years of 'almost seasons' nags at me to cover all bases though

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

At this point I’d say that Kelly is far more likely to be delisted than Madge. Zero competitiveness. Which is a shame because his field kicking would make him a weapon coming out of defence.

fair enough. I agree in terms of competitiveness although I have only watched 4-5 VFL games with a few more highlight packages. I think the age gap 21 vs 29 will more likely result in Will being saved although we could easily lose both because we need the list spots.

 

[sr36]

It’s definitely been a pleasing year on the development front and most will probably point to McRae and co as new voices, but I think it’s the system they’ve implemented as much as anything. I’m under no illusion that it’s about an 8 goal swing between our current position and Essendon’s, but it’s been enjoyable and hopefully provides a platform for future success as well.

I think a lot of it does come down to the coaching: clarity, simplicity and effectiveness of the system - plus a different attitude to the errors that can occur as a result of attacking footy. I think we're getting over the line time and time again because the whole group is backing themselves and playing without fear of stuffing up, which never seemed to be the case under Bucks.