Preview Round 10, 2023: GWS v St.Kilda - GIANTS Stadium, Sunday 21st May, 4:40PM AEST

[Ephemeral Hope]

Why is it seen as an attack when you point out areas of concern?

Let's go through a couple of points.
Last year we started the year pretty darn well. In fact we ran and ran and ran and it seemed that our players especially early on were fitter than everyone else. By the half way mark we were 8-3 and well on the way to finals.

Fast forward to this year. Again started really well. Our team seemed to be able to outlast and outrun our opponents. See in particular Essendon and WB where they came back and we were able to put the foot down and run away with the wins. If all goes to plan we should be 8-3 again but with a better fixture in the second half of the year. And I'd nearly suggest that if we were to miss finals from 8-3 this year considering our fixture it would be worse if that's even possible!


But and this is key here, there have been signs in the past 4 weeks that our run isn't as strong as it may have seemed. Do I hope that to continue? * no. But there are concerns.

Our two losses to Port and the Pies whilst looking good from the outside if you dig deeper in terms of injuries to their best 22 and ours when we faced them. One would argue that both of those teams had their own injury concerns (pies more so when you look at how many best 22 were out when they faced us.)

On injuries how many of our best 22 do you see as being out due to injury in the last 4 rounds. I'd wager that it isn't as much as we would think. And I'm talking absolute walk-ins. There aren't that many at present. King, Gresham?
Coff hasn't played in nearly 2 years.
Hayes had only played 3 games?
Jones hasn't played for what 9-10 months?
DMac since Round 13 last year?
Billings is stuck in the VFL.

Not saying that injuries haven't played a role but for the last month perhaps a tad overplayed?

Opposition teams have been able to get to work on our game plan. Stop the quick switch and either force us long or into the middle. That's not to say there isn't a Plan B but at the moment we haven't necessarily seen it. Plenty of time to go though.

Our mids are too similar. Crouch, Ross and even Steele throw the ball on the boot blindly. And it seems instead of the old throw Carlisle forward its let's put Sinclair in the middle. But he is best coming off that Half back line. We end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.
If you put our mids up against the rest of the Top 8 I'd suggest we probably have more deficiencies than most. That's not attacking the club. That's just pointing out the obvious.

Do I hope that things change and we get back into gear? Hell yes. I like winning.
But I'm allowed to be a bit concerned with current form. Especially since we've just been touched up by Adelaide and we now travel to Sydney to take on the Giants who will be no easy beat.

Good post!

Our injury list isn’t as bad as it seems and most of the replacements will not make us much better. Not because they’re not good but because the fill ins have been performing well. It’s just that we cannot assume that adding in X player makes us a certain amount better since you also have to minus the performance of the player they replace.

Eg. Membrey on paper wow how good to have him come back in for Caminiti who’s only a 19 year old. But really Caminiti has been performing quite well and membrey didn’t actually make us better.

Webster more a side grade to Paton.

Gresh injured when he gets back we’ll be much stronger! But wait when he does play half of us want him dropped or traded due to his deficiencies. We’d rather play the young ones anyways.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

Its all good fam.

We just flogged GWS on AFL23 by 27 goals.

Its in the bag. Caminiti kicked 12.

Coming off the bench?

 

[bird_man]

I don't agree. Melbourne have an elite midfield. Dogs close but the rest are pretty ordinary.

Brisbane?

Port have a pretty good midfield whilst still young

Adelaide probably the only midfield that doesn't look a whole heap better than ours right now.

We really need to start rolling our young players through there more

 

[luca77]

It’s funny I thought they were the main team aside from Adelaide out of our losses so far that actually outplayed us. Port and Adelaide looked like just pressure and skill difference but Collingwood looked like a systematic dismantling and considered effort to destroy our game plan. We tried to play well but fell to pieces as opposed to us playing like s**t vs Port and Adelaide

Yeah, they ultimately did, I was more saying that the pies didn't play well that day, compared to their other games (and that yeah, we did contribute to that). So we had a big chance if we were better/cleaner - but we weren't. My point was more about our recent form as opposed to style/system/effort.

 

[gringo2011]

A little perspective re: the 8-3 start last year

We were rarely putting together 4 quarters of decent football (maybe 1 against the Hawks) - many also mentioned that there was no coherent gameplan and as we now know Ratten got found out as the season progressed - we were also playing with close to a full quota of players during those first 11 rounds unlike this year where we have been missing King, DMac and also Membrey, Webster and Steele for big chunks and not forgetting Paddy Ryder.

So yeah we won games but not due to a solid game plan but moreso brilliant 15 minute bursts of effort and some individual brilliance.

This year though we have won games using a clear highly structured gameplan with loads of best 22 players missing and a some young forward kp talent with barely 20-30 games of experience and apparently a misfiring mid set up

It's been mentioned elsewhere but we have lost to 2 current top 4 teams by 1 goal and a full strength Adelaide team at a ground where we have a 3 - 13 record

I agree that the last few games haven't been pretty but given the coaching group we have and with players to come back I doubt we are going to fall off the cliff like last year ..... some supporters need to stop being so reactive and have a bit of faith that we can work through this minor form slump and learn from our losses

I have faith that we can get back to our winning ways

Yeah, we have structure now. Last year was the same thing on repeat and when it worked it looked unconvincing, when it didn't it looked amateurish. It's not a static environment that we work in so you can substantially improve but others around you can substantially improve even more. There is also factors like when and where you play sides, injury etc.

I feel like regardless we have a better chance at winning games under Lyon but things like list quality and injury are impediments. Not necessarily talent but ability to follow the system.

I've lost a bit of cockiness but not faith at the moment. If we win the next 2 games we look like we are still on track for finals and even that is a step-up and another learning experience for our players.

 

[Barrels]

Legend has it that there's one left in there

Barrels , with his ball gag and gimp suit on xox

 

[gringo2011]

Brisbane?

Port have a pretty good midfield whilst still young

Adelaide probably the only midfield that doesn't look a whole heap better than ours right now.

We really need to start rolling our young players through there more

I responded to that. Brisbane probably the best of them. Port have Wines who is around Steele level and JHF and a few rolling through that look really high potential. Boak was their star mid for years and he's pretty much a couple of good games a year now.

The midfield that got Geelong into final last year was ordinary but had depth and extended to those wings and high HFF and defensive runners.

Collingwood had Crisp inside and not much else last year. Sydney had the Chad and an ageing Luke Parker. It's your outside talent including those wings, HHF and running defensive players that make midfields these days. Your inside set up doesn't does guarantee success. Dogs and Carlton have elite inside set ups.

DMac was a big loss for us because he added to that pool. Wood stepping up was one of the reasons that we moved up this year. Seb Ross dropping off has made us worse after a great start to the season. Developing those runners like Byrnes will do more than bringing in another inside mid. To me running inside outside mids are what we need. Guys who win contests but are able to cruise on the outside. A real gun inside mid would be handy though.

Noah Anderson would be ideal. I still think we could use a guy like Rhys Mathieson, he was great when he got into the seniors last year but can't get a full time best 22 spot. Can play inside and outside. Worst he's depth, best case he does a Stocker and makes it hard to drop him.

 

[bird_man]

I responded to that. Brisbane probably the best of them. Port have Wines who is around Steele level and JHF and a few rolling through that look really high potential. Boak was their star mid for years and he's pretty much a couple of good games a year now.

The midfield that got Geelong into final last year was ordinary but had depth and extended to those wings and high HFF and defensive runners.

Collingwood had Crisp inside and not much else last year. Sydney had the Chad and an ageing Luke Parker. It's your outside talent including those wings, HHF and running defensive players that make midfields these days. Your inside set up doesn't does guarantee success. Dogs and Carlton have elite inside set ups.

DMac was a big loss for us because he added to that pool. Wood stepping up was one of the reasons that we moved up this year. Seb Ross dropping off has made us worse after a great start to the season. Developing those runners like Byrnes will do more than bringing in another inside mid. To me running inside outside mids are what we need. Guys who win contests but are able to cruise on the outside. A real gun inside mid would be handy though.

Noah Anderson would be ideal. I still think we could use a guy like Rhys Mathieson, he was great when he got into the seniors last year but can't get a full time best 22 spot. Can play inside and outside. Worst he's depth, best case he does a Stocker and makes it hard to drop him.

Port have two other young all Australians that you haven’t even mentioned. They are well ahead of us right now.

I think our midfield is still a long way off a premiership midfield. You can say a quality midfield doesn’t guarantee you success and you are right, but very rarely does an average midfield get you a flag.

West Coast probably to most recent. Geelong were better than you give them credit for.

Only chance we have of success is introducing Owens, Phillipou, Windhager etc and hope they can improve us

 

[BrutThough]

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Will kick 40 goals and enter the Coleman race in one game

 

[gringo2011]

Port have two other young all Australians that you haven’t even mentioned. They are well ahead of us right now.

I think our midfield is still a long way off a premiership midfield. You can say a quality midfield doesn’t guarantee you success and you are right, but very rarely does an average midfield get you a flag.

West Coast probably to most recent. Geelong were better than you give them credit for.

Only chance we have of success is introducing Owens, Phillipou, Windhager etc and hope they can improve us

Who are their 2 other AAs? Rozzee who plays some mids but plays a lot of forward. He's certainly not a starting mid most weeks. Butterss plays more midfield at the moment and he's good. They have Willem Drew who is okay but nothing special. They have better outside players and depth than us.Bak is over the Hill.

Steele, Crouch and Ross is blue collar but not far off any of those sides IMO. Steele and Wines are about on par. Wines has a Brownlow but he's not absolute star quality. He's a good solid mid like Jack. I would suggest our inside starting midfield should be enough especially with guys like Sinclair, Gresham and Clark types rotating through. Adding to the runners on the outside would be good business and if we could get an absolutely elite inside on baller it would be handy.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I responded to that. Brisbane probably the best of them. Port have Wines who is around Steele level and JHF and a few rolling through that look really high potential. Boak was their star mid for years and he's pretty much a couple of good games a year now.

The midfield that got Geelong into final last year was ordinary but had depth and extended to those wings and high HFF and defensive runners.

Collingwood had Crisp inside and not much else last year. Sydney had the Chad and an ageing Luke Parker. It's your outside talent including those wings, HHF and running defensive players that make midfields these days. Your inside set up doesn't does guarantee success. Dogs and Carlton have elite inside set ups.

DMac was a big loss for us because he added to that pool. Wood stepping up was one of the reasons that we moved up this year. Seb Ross dropping off has made us worse after a great start to the season. Developing those runners like Byrnes will do more than bringing in another inside mid. To me running inside outside mids are what we need. Guys who win contests but are able to cruise on the outside. A real gun inside mid would be handy though.

Noah Anderson would be ideal. I still think we could use a guy like Rhys Mathieson, he was great when he got into the seniors last year but can't get a full time best 22 spot. Can play inside and outside. Worst he's depth, best case he does a Stocker and makes it hard to drop him.

Agree we need an elite midfielder ala Noah Anderson or Caleb Serong that lifts and puts the side on his shoulders when needed ala Bontempelli, Petracca, Neale or Pendelbury. Perhaps Owens, Phillipou or Windhager are those players but we need more top quatity midfielders and have done for decades.

I think you seriously under rate Geelongs midfield from last year. Any team with Sellwood, Dangerfield, Guthrie, Atkins, Blicavs, Holmes, Smith & Duncan are looking pretty solid. The thing with Geelong is they had a number of quality players who shared the load not just the one or two superstars.

I know you have been a long time fan of Mathieson but he is not the answer, he is in the same boat as Bytel. Both are very good VFL players who cant translate that to their AFL games. Both are what I call 'stop & go' players, they dont run and carry and neither can provide the link up outside finish that the better midfielders can.

Mason Wood has been brilliant this year but his lack of speed or zip in close was shown up against Adelaide. As you have stated it would have been nice to have McKenzie on that wing and play Wood behind the ball or forward on the weekend.

Just having a fit & firing best 30 will make a huge difference to our year. If we can ever get McKenzie, Coffield, Hayes, Jones & Billings consistently on the field we will give the better teams a fright. But its a big IF.....any sucessful coach needs their best team available.

 

[Plugger35]

It will be great to get Max King back but GWS look like they will get Toby Greene back so that kind of cancels out any advantage we will get from King.

Hopefully we get Webster back too who would probably be our best match up for Greene along with Wilkie, I wouldn't trust Paton to do the job on him.

 

[bird_man]

Who are their 2 other AAs? Rozzee who plays some mids but plays a lot of forward. He's certainly not a starting mid most weeks. Butterss plays more midfield at the moment and he's good. They have Willem Drew who is okay but nothing special. They have better outside players and depth than us.Bak is over the Hill.

Steele, Crouch and Ross is blue collar but not far off any of those sides IMO. Steele and Wines are about on par. Wines has a Brownlow but he's not absolute star quality. He's a good solid mid like Jack. I would suggest our inside starting midfield should be enough especially with guys like Sinclair, Gresham and Clark types rotating through. Adding to the runners on the outside would be good business and if we could get an absolutely elite inside on baller it would be handy.

Rozee does not play more forward than midfield. He’s full time mid that can push forward and has been for quite a while now. He definitely didn’t win an All Australian for his 18 goals last year.

Will have to agree to disagree on the rest. Can’t see us getting close to a flag with that current midfield group.

 

[bird_man]

It will be great to get Max King back but GWS look like they will get Toby Greene back so that kind of cancels out any advantage we will get from King.

Hopefully we get Webster back too who would probably be our best match up for Greene along with Wilkie, I wouldn't trust Paton to do the job on him.

Their defence looks a little shaky but the midfield worries me. Break even there and we should win.

 

[Saint Shags]

Who are their 2 other AAs? Rozzee who plays some mids but plays a lot of forward. He's certainly not a starting mid most weeks. Butterss plays more midfield at the moment and he's good. They have Willem Drew who is okay but nothing special. They have better outside players and depth than us.Bak is over the Hill.

Steele, Crouch and Ross is blue collar but not far off any of those sides IMO. Steele and Wines are about on par. Wines has a Brownlow but he's not absolute star quality. He's a good solid mid like Jack. I would suggest our inside starting midfield should be enough especially with guys like Sinclair, Gresham and Clark types rotating through. Adding to the runners on the outside would be good business and if we could get an absolutely elite inside on baller it would be handy.

Both Rozee and Butters are full mids this year. Rozee made the transition to midfield last year as did Butters.
Think you severely underestimate the Port midfield group.
Got a very good mix of bulls and spread.
Wines has a brownlow for a reason.

 

[Remboy]

It will be great to get Max King back but GWS look like they will get Toby Greene back so that kind of cancels out any advantage we will get from King.

Hopefully we get Webster back too who would probably be our best match up for Greene along with Wilkie, I wouldn't trust Paton to do the job on him.

You’d like to think King, Webster, Gresham and Billings come in this week, which gives us a better team on paper. However, it also gives us the same problem we’ve had most weeks which is a lack of stability.
Caminiti and Owens have never played with King before so it could take some time for that structure to gel.

 

[puppy_dog7]

Good post!

Our injury list isn’t as bad as it seems and most of the replacements will not make us much better. Not because they’re not good but because the fill ins have been performing well. It’s just that we cannot assume that adding in X player makes us a certain amount better since you also have to minus the performance of the player they replace.

Eg. Membrey on paper wow how good to have him come back in for Caminiti who’s only a 19 year old. But really Caminiti has been performing quite well and membrey didn’t actually make us better.

Webster more a side grade to Paton.

Gresh injured when he gets back we’ll be much stronger! But wait when he does play half of us want him dropped or traded due to his deficiencies. We’d rather play the young ones anyways.

I agree with the injury list part, but at the same time a healthy list breeds competition for spots.

A fit Coffield puts pressure on Paton, Clark, Nas, Webster, Battle to perform.

A fit Jones puts pressure on Bytel, Byrnes, Windy Ross, Crouch etc

A fit McKenzie puts pressure on Wood, Byrnes, Hill

A fit Hayes puts pressure on Membrey, Caminiti, Cordy etc

A fit Billings puts pressure on Butler, Higgins, Gresham, Byrnes, Hill

The fact we haven't even been able to have these guys play VFL most of the year means there hasn't been competition for spots and there hasn't been an ability to drop a few players that haven't performed as well or rest a few who have been sore with niggles.


Adelaide as an example have 3 players on their injury list and only 1 you could argue may get a game and that's McAdam. So they've been able to pick best available on form every week.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

I agree with the injury list part, but at the same time a healthy list breeds competition for spots.

A fit Coffield puts pressure on Paton, Clark, Nas, Webster, Battle to perform.

A fit Jones puts pressure on Bytel, Byrnes, Windy Ross, Crouch etc

A fit McKenzie puts pressure on Wood, Byrnes, Hill

A fit Hayes puts pressure on Membrey, Caminiti, Cordy etc

A fit Billings puts pressure on Butler, Higgins, Gresham, Byrnes, Hill

The fact we haven't even been able to have these guys play VFL most of the year means there hasn't been competition for spots and there hasn't been an ability to drop a few players that haven't performed as well or rest a few who have been sore with niggles.


Adelaide as an example have 3 players on their injury list and only 1 you could argue may get a game and that's McAdam. So they've been able to pick best available on form every week.

Yep. It’s a weakness and a strength. We don’t get much weaker due to injury but people coming back also cannot give us a measurable injection of performance.

Soldier in soldier out.

 

[CursingFijian]

Sunny’s Sightseeing Snippets #6

CursingFijian I stopped off in Snowtown yesterday, just for you.
If ever there was a town ideal for dumping bodies in barrels in banks, this is it.
Picture a dusty main street, flies buzzing lazily in the hotel entrance, dog lying in the sun outside the pub, no one to be seen except, in the distance, the local sub agency postman on his moped delivering the welfare cheques.

And just for you, because I know you would ask about it, below is a photo of the bank that stored the barrels.

You should buy it and turn it into a bed and breakfast cafe with a barrel themed decor.




I’m pretty sure the snowtownians would get right behind it and it would be sure to attract a special kind of niche tourist.

And if they wanted to get the full experience they could spend a night in the vault.

Evening cocktails like ‘Acid Euphoria’ and ‘ Limestone Fizz’.

 

[The_Steadier]

From yesterday regarding steele and his knee:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/rossisms-saints-captain-says-lyon-needed-to-change/news-story/c9d5d021ea8186bc43b4c489ee5f95e5

Asked about his knee, having injured it during the loss to Adelaide and sitting out the remainder of the game, Steele says he is “day-by-day”.

“The knee’s feeling okay. It’s definitely not feeling great, but yeah a small, little strain in the MCL (medial collateral ligament), so just got to take it day-by-day. I’ve been icing up plenty and we’ll test it out tomorrow at the club, just have a little jog around on it and see how it feels and probably go from there,” he said.

Steele said it remained to be seen whether he would miss the Saints’ next fixture against the Giants, which alongside Round 11 against Hawthorn, are exclusive to Fox Footy and available on Kayo Sports.

“It’s still probably up in the air, so touch-and-go at this point,” he said.

“I’ll have a little run around tomorrow and if it feels all right, I’ll (join the) main train on Friday. If I get through that, then I’ll put my hand up for selection. If there’s no pain and I’m not restricted, I should be okay, but it’s hard to say at this point.

“I’ve never really had an injury like this, so I don’t really know what to expect, but the doctors and physios have spoken me through it and just said (that) you can’t really think too far ahead with it, you’ve just got to see how it pulls up each morning when you wake up and ice the hell out of it.

“That’s what I’ve been doing.”

 

[The Cobra]

Training today:

• Went for about an hour - typical drills including one commencing with a ball up in the middle with emphasis on clean movement chain by the mids to inside 50 with forwards then required to finish with a goal
• reasonably upbeat vibe
• Keeler, Heath and Steele (bandaged knee) just running relatively easy laps.
• Gresham and Marshall participated in full training as did McKenzie and Hotton!
• Gresham’s kicks out of stoppage still not great - bit surprised one of the coaches didn’t pull him up
• King trained fully I think
• RTB pulled aside a few players for quiet one on one discussions & instruction (Stocker & Ross were 2 I noticed)
• Hayes running laps at a decent pace - seemed to be moving much more freely than last week

 

[CaptainRisky]

Port have two other young all Australians that you haven’t even mentioned. They are well ahead of us right now.

I think our midfield is still a long way off a premiership midfield. You can say a quality midfield doesn’t guarantee you success and you are right, but very rarely does an average midfield get you a flag.

West Coast probably to most recent. Geelong were better than you give them credit for.

Only chance we have of success is introducing Owens, Phillipou, Windhager etc and hope they can improve us

Rozee was named on the bench , that was it , no others made the squad

 

[bird_man]

Rozee was named on the bench , that was it , no others made the squad

Thanks Cap

2022 was not the only year the AFL named an All Australian side

Jack Steele was also named on the bench when he made it, doesn’t mean he didn’t have a very good year as a midfielder

 

[botts]

Training today:

• Went for about an hour - typical drills including one commencing with a ball up in the middle with emphasis on clean movement chain by the mids to inside 50 with forwards then required to finish with a goal
• reasonably upbeat vibe
• Keeler, Heath and Steele (bandaged knee) just running relatively easy laps.
• Gresham and Marshall participated in full training as did McKenzie and Hotton!
• Gresham’s kicks out of stoppage still not great - bit surprised one of the coaches didn’t pull him up
• King trained fully I think
• RTB pulled aside a few players for quiet one on one discussions & instruction (Stocker & Ross were 2 I noticed)
• Hayes running laps at a decent pace - seemed to be moving much more freely than last week

How did hotton go? I rewatched some of his highlights this morning. Perfect Zac jones replacement