Coach Alastair Clarkson IV - HFC Racism Investigation Discussion

[Hearts to hearts]

Maybe we could split the costs?

Yeah, that’s not how old people work.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

In light of this article and the account of Jason Burt, I can't see how anyone can draw a conclusion about the most damaging allegation (the abortion claim) when everyone alleged to have been in the room says it never happened, that in fact it never happened!!!

It just seems that in every instance, there is a victim to each story and that is the female partner - Amy, Jacqui, Kylie, and Shannon Rioli as well. However, what they are a victim of, and who the perpetrator was, is the question. I believe that each of these women is telling the truth as they experienced it. Sadly, in some instances, it is becoming painfully apparent that their truth is filtered through some alternate facts fed to them by their respective partners.

 

[gokangas]

I can't see how anyone can draw a conclusion from the most damaging allegation (the abortion) when everyone alleged to have been in the room says it never happened, that in fact it never happened!!!

It just seems that in every instance, there is a victim to each story and that is the female partner. Amy, Jacqui, Kylie, and Shannon Rioli as well. However, what they are a victim of, and who the perpetrator was, is the question. I believe that each of these women is telling the truth as they experienced it. Sadly, it is becoming painfully apparent that their truth is filtered through some alternate facts fed to them by their respective partners.

It is so complex and context is so important. I said from day one it is almost impossible to find a way through this that satisfies all parties. The story I heard around the abortion claim is a great example. I just hope everyone can find peace and move on. (Easy for me to say as an outsider).

 

[justroyal]

I’m confused. Did ‘Zac’ know that ‘Zac and Kylie’ were pregnant?

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

It is so complex and context is so important. I said from day one it is almost impossible to find a way through this that satisfies all parties. The story I heard around the abortion claim is a great example. I just hope everyone can find peace and move on. (Easy for me to say as an outsider).

The story you heard around the abortion claim - did you hear it directly from someone who is alleged to have been in the room when this conversation was supposed to have happened? If not, then you are listening to someone with about as little authority to speak on the matter as anyone here. Most likely they were just speculating on what might have happened, or passing on speculation in a so-called Chinese whisper.

Out of this report, what we are starting to glean is that all of the people placed in the room by Ian when abortion was allegedly raised are all saying this did not happen.

 

[see see]

"McLachlan said he had spoken to Clarkson by text"

 

[gokangas]

The story you heard around the abortion claim - did you hear it directly from someone who is alleged to have been in the room when this conversation was supposed to have happened? If not, then you are listening to someone with about as little authority to speak on the matter as anyone here. Most likely they were just speculating on what might have happened, or passing on speculation in a so-called Chinese whisper.

Out of this report, what we are starting to glean is that all of the people placed in the room by Ian when abortion was allegedly raised are all saying this did not happen.

Not direct, but reasonably informed, but not necessarily correct I suppose. What I am saying is it is impossible to know as even those in the room seem to have different recollections. The story I heard would take a very long bow to interpret it as telling someone to kill their unborn child, or whatever the headline screamed at the time.

 

[Mav]

So they don’t really care about an apology, they just want it so they can get some money. But they’re not willing to go through the proper process to get compensation, they just want it given to them.

Yeah, so much truth in their telling. Ducking scamming lawyers.

 

[travelli]

In light of this article and the account of Jason Burt, I can't see how anyone can draw a conclusion about the most damaging allegation (the abortion claim) when everyone alleged to have been in the room says it never happened, that in fact it never happened!!!

It just seems that in every instance, there is a victim to each story and that is the female partner - Amy, Jacqui, Kylie, and Shannon Rioli as well. However, what they are a victim of, and who the perpetrator was, is the question. I believe that each of these women is telling the truth as they experienced it. Sadly, in some instances, it is becoming painfully apparent that their truth is filtered through some alternate facts fed to them by their respective partners.

I'd say that partners hating their partners footy club is very common. Doesn't matter your background.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Senior judge criticises Hawthorn racism inquiry

One of Victoria’s most senior and experienced former judges has criticised the unfairness of the process Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt were submitted to by Hawthorn and the AFL’s racism investigation.

www.theage.com.au

AFL 2023: Hawthorn racism inquiry criticised by senior judge
www.theage.com.au

Senior judge criticises Hawthorn racism inquiry​

One of Victoria’s most senior and experienced former judges has criticised the unfairness of the process Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt were submitted to by Hawthorn and the AFL’s racism investigation.

David Ashley, KC, a retired justice of the Victorian Court of Appeal, questioned the absence of detailed allegations against the trio and the protracted nature of the AFL inquiry.

​

Ashley is also chair of St Kilda’s integrity oversight committee. This week the AFL held its annual meeting with the chairs of every club’s integrity oversight committee and the Hawthorn situation became a topic among the many of the attendees.

To illustrate the situation Clarkson, Fagan and Burt found themselves in, and why as a jurist he found the process troubling, Ashley offered an example of an equivalent scenario in the court system.

“Suppose, in the criminal law context, that a man was charged with a serious assault. There was a conversation with the prosecutor this way: ‘Who is it said I assaulted them?’ ‘I won’t tell you that.’

‘What were the circumstances of this alleged assault?’ ‘I won’t tell you that.’ ‘When is it said that the assault occurred?’ ‘Some time in the last 10 years, but I won’t tell you anything more than that.’ ‘Have you obtained any corroboration of this alleged assault?’ ‘What I will do is tell the media that you have been charged with a serious assault, and that the maker of the allegation wouldn’t have made it unless it was true’,” Ashley said.

In the context of the Hawthorn case, there was no direct prosecutor putting allegations in the manner of the example above before the matters became public. And no detailed allegations have been put since they were public.

Ashley said for the fairness to both parties to explore their options the AFL’s inquiry should have been shorter if parties indicated they did not want to participate with the AFL.

Ashley questioned the initial terms of reference for Phil Egan when he investigated the experiences of Indigenous players at the club and provided feedback to them in the cultural safety report. He said he understood why Hawthorn, once they received the report, passed it on to the AFL’s integrity unit.

Ashley also pointed to comments Hawthorn great Shaun Burgoyne, who retired in 2021, is reported to have provided for the inquiry endorsing the Hawks and Clarkson.

“The circumstances in which Hawthorn commissioned the report from [Phil] Egan are unknown, but it appears for the most part that assertions of wrongdoing were not particularised, and we know that because Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt have kept asking what is alleged?” Ashley told this masthead.

“It’s understandable that Hawthorn took the option of referring the matter to the AFL because it involved integrity issues, although another course of action would be to dig deeper because there had been a number of Indigenous players over the period of years and what Shaun Burgoyne has reported to have said recently has a potential counterweight to what Egan apparently concluded.

“It was understandable the AFL sought to conduct an inquiry at which the particulars of matters alleged against Clarkson, Fagan and Burt could be outlined and their responses obtained bearing in mind that the complainants might be unwilling to engage with the AFL.

“If they were unwilling to engage, then the sooner the inquiry was brought to an end the better, leaving the parties to determine what they individually wanted to do, if anything.

“It appears little, if any, progress was made in ascertaining the particularisation of what is alleged against any of Clarkson, Fagan or Burt over a protracted period of time in circumstances in which they have nothing to respond to, which is, at least, unfortunate.”

Clarkson, Fagan and Burt have strenuously denied the allegations and have said they look forward to clearing their names.

Clarkson recently took indefinite leave from his role as North Melbourne senior coach due to mental health reasons from the toll of the Hawthorn inquiry.

You don’t need to be a Supreme Court Justice to realise this has been a shitshow from the beginning, as is anything that the AFL gets involved in to try and manipulate and protect their ‘brand’.

 

[The Anvil]

I'd say that partners hating their partners footy club is very common. Doesn't matter your background.

Absolutely, at every level right down to D Grade Amateurs.

Fair chance that Ben Brown's wife isn't exactly thrilled with the North Melbourne FC and her background likely couldn't be any more different.

 

[blackshadow]

After Burt’s public comments you’d have to think that defamation proceedings aren’t far away….

 

[Sillygit]

It's always interesting to me to see how people can engage with the exact same content and come to wildly different conclusions. The Burt article is on the afl reddit at the moment and you have people saying "oh since this now confirms that the conversations happened this proves the allegations totally correct". We all experience confirmation bias, there's no doubting that, but my god. Seemingly the only way the allegations could possibly be disproven is that they were never at any point in time in a room together.

 

[blackshadow]

It's always interesting to me to see how people can engage with the exact same content and come to wildly different conclusions. The Burt article is on the afl reddit at the moment and you have people saying "oh since this now confirms that the conversations happened this proves the allegations totally correct". We all experience confirmation bias, there's no doubting that, but my god. Seemingly the only way the allegations could possibly be disproven is that they were never at any point in time in a room together.

You don’t even need to go to reddit have a look at the main board and Hawthorn threads

 

[Sillygit]

You don’t even need to go to reddit have a look at the main board and Hawthorn threads

I went to the main board once a couple years ago.

Took about 3 minutes to write it off forever.

 

[see see]

I went to the main board once a couple years ago.

Took about 3 minutes to write it off forever.

I don't think I've ever gone on the main board. I just assumed I wasn't allowed to do so on account of the fact that I've reached pubity.

 

[Nate7]

"McLachlan said he had spoken to Clarkson by text"

View attachment 1697487

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

It's always interesting to me to see how people can engage with the exact same content and come to wildly different conclusions. The Burt article is on the afl reddit at the moment and you have people saying "oh since this now confirms that the conversations happened this proves the allegations totally correct". We all experience confirmation bias, there's no doubting that, but my god. Seemingly the only way the allegations could possibly be disproven is that they were never at any point in time in a room together.

In a legal scenario, that goes to credibility of the witnesses and how each of them holds up under cross-examination. Some may say (and with good reason) that this process has a white bias and is detrimental to blackfellas. But separate from that, it is intended to be biased towards those speaking the truth and detrimental to those perjuring themselves.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

Not direct, but reasonably informed, but not necessarily correct I suppose. What I am saying is it is impossible to know as even those in the room seem to have different recollections. The story I heard would take a very long bow to interpret it as telling someone to kill their unborn child, or whatever the headline screamed at the time.

Yes well I've drawn some admittedly long bows myself in trying to imagine a situation in which the issue of abortion might reasonably be raised as an option, and how that could possibly be misconstrued. And frankly, I have no issue with anyone presenting all of the options to a young couple who find that they have an unplanned pregnancy. But from what Jason Burt is saying, not even that entirely reasonable justification for raising abortion ever happened. And if that is true, then the only conclusion you can draw is that someone went rogue and used the footy club as a false excuse to bring pressure upon someone else.

 

[SpiderBurton22]

Probably not the right thread but I just inspected an open house. Didn't realise Jeff ****ing Kennett had a holiday home down my way.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

The request for Hawthorn to make an apology rather than the accused really doesn't help out Clarkson, Fagan or Burt.

It will simply be viewed as Hawthorn accepting that all the events involving them occurred and apologising on their behalf.

They've all vehemently denied doing what has been claimed, so Hawthorn going over the top and accepting those terms would be a massive slap in the face.

 

[Devington]

A source close to the players and partners involved in the AFL investigation, who would not be named for confidentiality reasons, said they had invited Burt to participate in mediation, so they could hear his truth and he could hear theirs. “But he wouldn’t do it. He preferred to go to the media.”
The source said a truth and reconciliation model was the path forward.

How dare he go to the media!

 

[KekiRoo]

Probably not the right thread but I just inspected an open house. Didn't realise Jeff ******* Kennett had a holiday home down my way.

View attachment 1697666

I'm really surprised the agent didn't say to the homeowner "Yeah, you might want to put the dolls in the cupboard for a while..."

 

[gokangas]

The request for Hawthorn to make an apology rather than the accused really doesn't help out Clarkson, Fagan or Burt.

It will simply be viewed as Hawthorn accepting that all the events involving them occurred and apologising on their behalf.

They've all vehemently denied doing what has been claimed, so Hawthorn going over the top and accepting those terms would be a massive slap in the face.

Will be very interesting to read. I suspect it will begin "if you were offended"..........

 

[giantroo]

AFL’s racism peace deal collapses as families consider options​

Mark Robinson

A proposed settlement between the AFL and First Nations families in the Hawthorn racism scandal is dead in its current format.

And it’s possible Leon Zwier, the lawyer representing four First Nations families, might be let go as the families consider alternative legal avenues.

A proposal was presented to the AFL, but in talks on Friday night and Saturday afternoon, some of the families have listed a set of new non-negotiables if a solution is to be reached.

The families want an apology from the AFL, Hawthorn, Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.

They also want sanctions for the club, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt for allegedly bringing the game into disrepute.

Clarkson, Fagan and Burt have denied any wrongdoing.

The initial proposal, made by Zwier, asked for apologies from the AFL and Hawthorn only.

A non-disparagement clause as well as a mechanism which would demand that the families apply for compensation from an AFL fund were also in the proposal.

A third meeting is scheduled to be held on Sunday between the families and their non-legal advisers.

Zwier, a partner in Arnold Bloch Leibler, has represented the families from the start and has been working closely with outgoing AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan in recent weeks.

Whether he continues to work with the families is expected to be resolved at Sunday’s meeting.

Part of the “non-negotiables’’ also include ongoing support for mental health, that laws regarding racism are the core of the AFL’s policies and procedures, and that a public healing ceremony be held to complete the process of reconciliation.

Burt, who was the Hawks’ welfare manager, on Saturday admitted to feeling “uncomfortable” about some of the events that unfolded at Hawthorn.
Burt denied hearing an alleged incident where a player was told to encourage his partner to have an abortion.

But Burt confirmed he went to the house of another First Nations Hawthorn player along with coach Clarkson and footy manager Fagan when the player told his partner – who is now his wife – that he was ending the relationship.

“I think that’s the part that overstepped the mark from being supportive to what could be deemed intimidating,” Burt told Nine Media. “And I get that and that’s what makes me feel uncomfortable.”

He said the addition of Clarkson and Fagan at the meeting with the player and his partner could now be considered “over the top”.

“It probably should have been just me in with ‘Zac’ … I think that would have been far less intimidating,” Burt said.

This allegation of separation was first aired in Hawthorn’s cultural review conducted last year.

A figure close to the First Nations families said on Saturday that Burt’s comments confirmed all three Hawthorn staffers were present at the meeting and strengthened the claims against them.

On Friday the Herald Sun asked Burt and Burt’s lawyer Tony Hargreaves if Burt would like to do an interview/make a statement or if a deal was imminent in the racism scandal.

Hargreaves replied via email: “At the moment, there is more likelihood I will play full-forward for Collingwood in the grand final.’’

The Herald Sun revealed on Friday that lawyers for the First Nations families (Zwier) had recommended a settlement with the AFL, which could end the saga.

There were hopes for a solution to be reached in days, but it was revealed that some First Nations families were not comfortable with every aspect of the proposal.

Burt also revealed on Saturday he had met McLachlan last week, and feared the league was more concerned about protecting its brand than anything else.
“He’s been disappointing,” Burt said of McLachlan.

“The AFL is a brand. For them to say they’re worried about people is false. It’s all about (the) brand.”