Toast All Australian Lions 2024

[KissKiss]

Serious question; is this award compromised with the votes being published each week particularly the last 3-4 rounds when coaches have a vested interest in voting for certain players or not voting for opposition players? Not saying Daicos isn’t worthy but your post has me wondering or is that too cynical?

Most coaches seem to take it reasonably seriously and do the right thing. Macrea was an outlier. But if you want to make the award fairer and more prestigious then putting the votes behind closed doors even for half the year would make a big difference

 

[On the quiet]

Can not for the life of me work out how Harris Andrews misses out, absolute incompetence from the AA selection panel, do these clowns even watch footy.

I'd hazard a guess that every clubs recruitment team bar Carton's would take Andrews over Weitering every day of the week.

I have a slightly different view. I was glad to see arguably this years best (Taylor missed too many games) 1v1 lockdown defender picked. Its about time a true lockdown defender is picked, because without them the intercepting types struggle as they become more accountable eg Moore when Murphy retired.

However, having watched a couple of those late Sunday WC games, I cannot understand how Harris was not picked over McGovern. 'Tom 14' summed it up well in his post re the champion data stats.

 

[braddsey]

They, being the All-Australian committee, cannot watch all of the games which is warranted. Therefore they become statistic driven and media darling awards.

The All-Australian committee can watch every game. These people all work in the AFL professionally, either in the media or as part of the AFL executive. Watching football is a key input to their employment!

 

[KissKiss]

I depressed myself putting together this list. I know its pretty meaningless but we do seem to have a few players who get snubbed more than other teams:

• Harris Andrews 2023-24 in the best few defenders but doesnt make the final team
• Neale 2023 joins the list of Brownlow Medalists not to make it
• Charlie Cameron 2020-2022 was the best performing small forward and kicked more goals in each year than Ryan, Dusty, Greene, Papley and Stengle all who got selected over him
• Hugh McCluggage 2019-22 one of the best wings going around for multiple years with no final teams. He moves into the middle and then we have the one off year of wingers being selected

 

[Lions Flag 2020]

Can not for the life of me work out how Harris Andrews misses out, absolute incompetence from the AA selection panel, do these clowns even watch footy.

I'd hazard a guess that every clubs recruitment team bar Carton's would take Andrews over Weitering every day of the week.

AA lost all credibility last year when Lachie Neale wasn’t picked but won the Brownlow! It’s embarrassing Harris wasn’t picked.

 

[On the quiet]

Neale on the bench and Weitering ahead of Andrews is just insulting.

I can understand that selection, picking a true last line of defence lock down defender as Harris plays more the intercepting CHB (especially when Payne playing).

IMO what is insulting is McGovern ahead of Andrews

 

[martinson]

Coaches award is another furphy. The coach is in a worse position and more subject to bias than the umps. When you're on the bench particularly you miss passages of play on the other side of the ground. The coaches will admit it. You're focused on the team and the outcome ,not individuals. To allow coaches to vote for their own players is crazy. That's most appropriate for the club B/F.

If a club favourite is in contention in the last few games who you gunna vote for ? It's possibly a combination of your coaches inputs but in some instances it isn't.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

I can understand that selection, picking a true last line of defence lock down defender as Harris plays more the intercepting CHB (especially when Payne playing).

IMO what is insulting is McGovern ahead of Andrews

Strong agree. Weitering is an understandable selection for mine but McGovern seems like a selection based on WA representation and past reputation to me. This is getting up there with Mal Michael being overlooked for Matthew Pavlich

 

[McIvor]

I’m consoling myself with the fact that at least Harris has been AA. Mal Michael

Mal Michael

Age

47

Ht

190cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.8

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

4.7

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.2

3star

No current season stats available

D

6.4

2star

K

2.2

1star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.8

4star

who was hands down the best full back for a good 3-4 years and never got in.

Let’s be honest, if Harris couldn’t get in the past two years, he has next to no hope when media darlings and salivating journos will be falling over themselves to get Sam Taylor

15

Sam Taylor

Age

25

Ht

198cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.1

4star

MG

130.5

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

2.5

1star

HB

5.5

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.5

3star

MG

60.8

1star

D

8.6

3star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.2

2star

T

2.8

5star

MG

110.8

2star

and no doubt Tom Barrass

37

Tom Barrass

Age

29

Ht

197cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

8.8

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

6.1

5star

T

0.9

3star

MG

158.5

3star

D

10.1

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.1

2star

M

5.6

5star

T

0.3

1star

MG

139.6

2star

D

11.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

0.4

3star

MG

160.0

3star

because he’s gone to the Hawks. I suspect Harris will never get in now despite being the premier KPD for 7-8 years.

 

[Denno]

You can add Matthew Kennedy getting snubbed in '99 too.

Was clearly the best CHB the whole year, but no, they had to find a home for SOS (who didn't play CHB for a minute that season)

 

[Tom14]

Strong agree. Weitering is an understandable selection for mine but McGovern seems like a selection based on WA representation and past reputation to me. This is getting up there with Mal Michael being overlooked for Matthew Pavlich

Weitering is an excellent 1v1 defender. I just don't highly value 1v1 defenders as All Australian shouts - I want to recognise the most valuable, which is those that come off and intercept and help out and make their team mates better.

As part of my selectively quoting Kingy as a good analyst when he agrees with me, this article from May is a good illustration of why Weitering being so good 1v1 doesn't matter when their team defence is much worse:

‘Give him license’: Star Blue’s ‘redundant’ positioning laid bare... and it could leave team ‘in trouble’

‘Redundant’: Big issue in star’s grim slide revealed... and it could leave Blues ‘in trouble’

www.foxsports.com.au

Weitering kept Charlie Dixon super quiet against port a few weeks ago, and the rest of Port's attack had free reign as Dixon just distracted weitering, wrestled with him and ran to non-dangerous spots. Kinda feels to me that Weitering is in as part of 'rewarding' defenders who 'BEAT THEIR MAN' which I just think is the wrong way to think about sophisticated defence in 2024.

By contrast, Harris covers up for the deficiencies we have in defence - and also was just about as good 1 v 1 as weitering, whilst facing more 1v1 contests.

The case for McGovern to make the team is the champion data ratings and the difference seems to be more intercepts at ground level, and the pure disposal count (and good ball use which he definitely has).

McGovern had a lot more touches than Harris for 2 reasons - 1. he took kickouts and averaged about 5 disposals per game from playing on from kick outs. That was basically the difference in their disposal counts - McGovern averaged about 20 disposals, Harris 15ish.

The second reason McGovern had more touches was that we faced a lot less inside 50s than West Coast did. Its a harder situation for Gov, but part of the reason why we faced less inside 50s outside of the midfield dominance, is that Harris won the ball back through intercept marks higher up the field, and launched attacks.

Harris' two best seasons as a complete defender have been the last 2. He got AA selection in 2019-20 when he was doing much more of a weitering type role of just beating his man and spoiling, when he's so much more a complete and dominant player now.

 

[Tom14]

I’m consoling myself with the fact that at least Harris has been AA. Mal Michael who was hands down the best full back for a good 3-4 years and never got in.

Let’s be honest, if Harris couldn’t get in the past two years, he has next to no hope when media darlings and salivating journos will be falling over themselves to get Sam Taylor and no doubt Tom Barrass because he’s gone to the Hawks. I suspect Harris will never get in now despite being the premier KPD for 7-8 years.

At least Sam Taylor is really good. No shame in missing out if he's selected instead.

2023 Wilkie (on the back of the Saints great points against total last year that has been completely ignored this year), weitering and 2024 Gov is gross stuff.

 

[scrim reaper]

Coming in here from the Hawks board purely to say Harris Andrews

31

Harris Andrews

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

151.7

2star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

D

9.8

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.8

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

94.0

2star

would be the first name I would put down in the backline and then I'd fill the rest in.

We can put Daicos on a wing and 3 inside mids on the bench but we absolutely MUST have Luke f***ing Ryan in that backline at the expense of the best actual defender in the comp.

 

[On the quiet]

Weitering is an excellent 1v1 defender. I just don't highly value 1v1 defenders as All Australian shouts - I want to recognise the most valuable, which is those that come off and intercept and help out and make their team mates better.

As part of my selectively quoting Kingy as a good analyst when he agrees with me, this article from May is a good illustration of why Weitering being so good 1v1 doesn't matter when their team defence is much worse:

‘Give him license’: Star Blue’s ‘redundant’ positioning laid bare... and it could leave team ‘in trouble’

‘Redundant’: Big issue in star’s grim slide revealed... and it could leave Blues ‘in trouble’

www.foxsports.com.au

Weitering kept Charlie Dixon super quiet against port a few weeks ago, and the rest of Port's attack had free reign as Dixon just distracted weitering, wrestled with him and ran to non-dangerous spots. Kinda feels to me that Weitering is in as part of 'rewarding' defenders who 'BEAT THEIR MAN' which I just think is the wrong way to think about sophisticated defence in 2024.

By contrast, Harris covers up for the deficiencies we have in defence - and also was just about as good 1 v 1 as weitering, whilst facing more 1v1 contests.

The case for McGovern to make the team is the champion data ratings and the difference seems to be more intercepts at ground level, and the pure disposal count (and good ball use which he definitely has).

McGovern had a lot more touches than Harris for 2 reasons - 1. he took kickouts and averaged about 5 disposals per game from playing on form kick outs. That was basically the difference in their disposal counts - McGovern averaged about 20 disposals, Harris 15ish.

The second reason McGovern had more touches was that we faced a lot less inside 50s than West Coast did. Its a harder situation for Gov, but part of the reason why we faced less inside 50s outside of the midfield dominance, is that Harris won the ball up through intercept marks higher up the field, and launched attacks.

Harris' two best seasons as a complete defender have been the last 2. He got AA selection in 2019-20 when he was doing much more of a weitering type role of just beating his man and spoiling, when he's so much more a complete and dominant player now.

Some sound reasoning here, but have to disagree on some aspects. Coaches/players should be conscious of the occasional KPF who sacrifices their game to reduce the impact of the Weitering type defender. IMO that is pretty rare that a KPF (not a 3rd tall, but the main forward) is prepared to sacrifice their involvement. Frampton who is/was not the Pies main forward target attempted to negate Harris in last years GF, but like Dixon he is not the main threat. Dixon is hardly the player he was a few years ago and is essentially there to crash packs and break even in contest, providing opportunities for other Point forwards.

IMO true 1v1 lockdown defenders are valuable and worthy of AA selection in their rightful position. No secret I rate Taylor highly and believe May is valuable to the Dees and we seen what happened to Moore this year with no Murphy locking down the KPF. If we can get Payne back to full fitness, and that means he has overcome his injuries and can play like he did for the first half of last year, his lockdown close marking is going to make it hard for Curnow and Hogan (who both did very little last year when Payne marked them). I cannot see Curnow and or Hogan prepared to sacrifice their game and take Payne (if playing) to non dangerous spots.

 

[Crust]

Congratulations to one of my favourite Lions, Dane Zorko.
All Australian at 35 is an outstanding achievement.

 

[Sproj]

Kane Cornes defending picking McGovern and Weitering:

'McGovern picks himself'

'Andrews can consider himself extremely unlucky, we spent hours arguing over him and Weitering'

So uses stats to justify other selections but not Andrews. Its pretty embarrassing.

 

[McIvor]

Kane Cornes defending picking McGovern and Weitering:

'McGovern picks himself'

'Andrews can consider himself extremely unlucky, we spent hours arguing over him and Weitering'

So uses stats to justify other selections but not Andrews. Its pretty embarrassing.

In other words the way decision was to pick the player from the big VIC club

 

[On the quiet]

Coming in here from the Hawks board purely to say Harris Andrews would be the first name I would put down in the backline and then I'd fill the rest in.

We can put Daicos on a wing and 3 inside mids on the bench but we absolutely MUST have Luke f***ing Ryan in that backline at the expense of the best actual defender in the comp.

yep.

 

[KissKiss]

In other words the way decision was to pick the player from the big VIC club

And McGovern who they just said picks him self and gave zero explanation for. Its weird they seem to have locked in some guys and thats it - like Ryan or McGovern and then quibble over Weitering/Andrews. But then have no problem with Daicos on the wing or Heeney on the HFF as they are apparently better than the other options - ie he didnt want to drop Butters. The rules only apply when they want to

 

[Sproj]

And McGovern who they just said picks him self and gave zero explanation for. Its weird they seem to have locked in some guys and thats it - like Ryan or McGovern and then quibble over Weitering/Andrews. But then have no problem with Daicos on the wing or Heeney on the HFF as they are apparently better than the other options - ie he didnt want to drop Butters. The rules only apply when they want to

The caller also told them the stats and they just ignored that / didn't respond.

 

[lionshine]

Have they flown everyone to Melbourne for these awards or super imposed everyone into one picture?

Noticed Lohmann was at the awards as well and wondered.

Nah Lohmann was there for the rising star award. He finished 3rd!

 

[luthor]

If McGovern in fact "picks himself", the only inference I can draw is that he has photos

 

[bungalow_bill]

Or he was on the selection panel.

 

[Jivlain]

Zorks lucky to escape further notice here with white socks and his tie tied liked that

 

[Elixuh]

At least there were just deserts with Butters winning the 2024 most coward punches award