1909 VFL Grand Final, South Melbourne vs Carlton Footage

[lenny20]

"I say umpire, that fifty metre penalty was quite preposterous you scoundrel"

That's a Melbourne supporter (current day)

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

I understood that the Gasometer in North Melbourne was erected in 1889, so if that game was at Arden ST, then the gasometer should have been in plain view in that video/Film.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66150742?searchTerm=Arden Street Gasometer&searchLimits=l-title=151

THE GAS MAINS, Or Barrett said the Gas Company werelaying the mains on the south asde of Macaulay road, and they should be asked to run them down Arden street as the population would soon be considerable in that neighbourhood. He moved that the Town Clerk write to the Gas Company relative to the matter.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66153073?searchTerm=Gas company Arden street&searchLimits=l-title=151


and some surprise was expressed, that a district within a few hundred yards of the colossal
North Melbourne gasometer,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66151749?searchTerm=Gas company Arden street&searchLimits=l-title=151
Dates are all around 1889

Great research. Well done.

I was always of the opinion that the gasometer was built in in the 1910's, but it appears to have been built much earlier in 1890:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77715092?searchTerm=gasometer north melbourne&searchLimits=sortby

The Blueseum informs me that the pre-1908 Carlton jumper was the original navy blue with "chamois" yolk refrred to as "The Holy Grail"

However, the 1908 Carlton premiership side appears to have sported an all navy ensemble without the monogram:




I would assume that the footage in that film is of a game between Collingwood and Carlton in 1908-1909, or the footage is of a North v Brunswick match at Brunswicks Gillon Street oval, or a view east across the Arden Street reserve towards the Moonee Ponds creek.

 

[underthestars]

what i'd really like to see is izzy take a mark with the giants a few points adrift, and kick post siren. stop, dig, and place kick for goal.

 

[Gydafud]

Anyone have a link to that newspaper article from the Argus or something, reporting on a very early 1900's Grand Final, and noting how soft the game has become as it is no longer being played by men? That was hilarious.

 

[joop]

Would've been an attractive game except the swans are clearly flooding and playing defensive football

 

[fabulousphil]

Great research. Well done.

I was always of the opinion that the gasometer was built in in the 1910's, but it appears to have been built much earlier in 1890:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77715092?searchTerm=gasometer north melbourne&searchLimits=sortby

The Blueseum informs me that the pre-1908 Carlton jumper was the original navy blue with "chamois" yolk refrred to as "The Holy Grail"

However, the 1908 Carlton premiership side appears to have sported an all navy ensemble without the monogram:




I would assume that the footage in that film is of a game between Collingwood and Carlton in 1908-1909, or the footage is of a North v Brunswick match at Brunswicks Gillon Street oval, or a view east across the Arden Street reserve towards the Moonee Ponds creek.

Cheers, i actually did go a little bit further, IMO the footage is at Victoria Park, but the 2 story house you can see is actually in Bath ST Abbotsford. (IMO)

There is actually a 2 story house in Turner ST, but there is also one in Bath ST.

If you go to http://maps.google.com.au/maps?sll=...a=X&ei=Kt5kUOexMrC0iQeyvoCQAQ&ved=0CCIQ8gEwAA

Stop at 10.13 and study the picture

and look at the 2 story house, notice the 3 windows, the distinctive brickwork at the top on the sides, and the groups of chimmneys on the single story houses, on it's left.

Pretty sure it is number 5 (?) Bath ST.

 

[RogersResults]

Anyone know what the finals system was back then? Because I looked up the results and the prelim was the same two teams a week earlier at the G. Got a bigger crowd, was probably a better spectacle as twice as many goals were scored. Result was the other way too:
Carlton 10.9 69 def South Melbourne 7.5 47 (Att: 42,418)

EDIT: Found it - if the minor premier didn't win the grandfinal the winner played them the next week. In this case South were actually in the first gf but lost, so got to challenge the winner the following week:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_VFL_Final_systems

There was no such thing as "the minor premier" (and there hasn't been since) at the time of this match and the "right of challenge" was removed by the VFA and the VFL from 1905 after Richmond VFA the year before refused to exercise their right to challenge Nth Melbourne in a grand final. (Under the 'Argus system', there was only a 'grand final' if the team finishing on top of the ladder lost either their semi-final or the final. The system was changed in 1931 so that a 4th or 'grand final' was always played.)

See: The Myth of the Minor Premiers.

The Wikipedia article is based on inadequate research as is the explanation of past finals systems in the AFL Record Season Guide.

 

[RogersResults]

I'm guessing it might be Albert 'Bert' Franks, South's feared ruckman who had a reputation as a loose cannon.

In 1907 he was cleared of a charge of kicking an umpire, but Carlton's committee complained that he had struck two of their players in the same match, and the ensuing suspension saw him miss the Grand Final in which Carlton defeated South by 5 points.

In the 1909 GF he "heroically" took two saving marks to deny Carlton in the dying minutes, and when the bell rang, "the burly West Australian was mobbed by well-wishers".

The following year he attended the tribunal hearing of teammate Dick Casey, and afterwards, incensed at Casey's suspension, he reputedly attacked and abused the witnessing umpire outside the building (former Collingwood premiership player, Lardie Tulloch). Although the assault charge was not proven, the League suspended him at its leisure and he wasn't permitted to play again until 1912, after missing 33 games.

The best on ground in the 1951 and 1952 Grand Finals received the 'Bert Franks' award donated by his widow.

 

[RogersResults]

I'm pretty sure long telephoto lenses didn't exist in 1909 just FYI.

Telephoto lenses were developed in the 19th century but in the early years of cinema were unwieldy and cumbersome.
Their use was limited in the early days before of reduced light transmission (film stocks were 'slower' - less sensitive to light) and without 'through the lens' view finders difficult to keep moving subjects in frame.

 

[RogersResults]

"I say umpire, that fifty metre penalty was quite preposterous you scoundrel"

Anachronistic on two counts - if there had been such a penalty it would have been in 'yards'.
Penalties involving gaining distance to the goals were long considered to be not in the 'spirit of the game' and were resisted until 1955 when a 15 yard penalty for 'time wasting was introduced'.

 

[Down At Gillon]

Telephoto lenses were developed in the 19th century but in the early years of cinema were unwieldy and cumbersome.
Their use was limited in the early days before of reduced light transmission (film stocks were 'slower' - less sensitive to light) and without 'through the lens' view finders difficult to keep moving subjects in frame.

and in 100 years time, people will be reading BigFooty after the 2012 Grand Final and they will note the following:

High Definition television was developed in the 21st century, but the broadcaster at the time refused to use this technology, for reasons unknown to anyone outside of their own boardroom. It's use was limited to gardening shows, and B-Grade shows from a country that was known at the time as America. Viewers were therefore forced to watch the biggest national sporting event in the country in Standard Definition.

 

[RogersResults]

In answer to two other queries - numbers were used in all matches from 1912 after being trialled previously in the 1911 finals.

A legal handpass being a ball held in one hand and punched with a clenched fist by the other was not made the rule until 1966.

The last recorded place kicks scoring goals were by Fitzroy's Tony Ongarello in 1955.

Can Ongarello Revive the Place Kick?

 

[FedEXFalls]

Thanks for that Ron the Bear, awesome stuff.

 

[Groupie_]

Collingwood won most of their flags in that era.

 

[RogersResults]

and in 100 years time, people will be reading BigFooty after the 2012 Grand Final and they will note the following:

High Definition television was developed in the 21st century, but the broadcaster at the time refused to use this technology, for reasons unknown to anyone outside of their own boardroom. It's use was limited to gardening shows, and B-Grade shows from a country that was known at the time as America. Viewers were therefore forced to watch the biggest national sporting event in the country in Standard Definition.

They seem to have discovered that the market has little appreciation of HD over SD just as consumers are happy to take photos with their phone instead of with a higher quality dedicated camera.

Also to cover a sporting event like the Grand Final with HD equipment Channel 7 have to rent it and the business model of free to air television, once a licence to print money, is falling apart.

 

[Emil Minty]

Brilliant thread. Thanks for the info peoples.

 

[RogersResults]

Great research. Well done.

I was always of the opinion that the gasometer was built in in the 1910's, but it appears to have been built much earlier in 1890:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77715092?searchTerm=gasometer north melbourne&searchLimits=sortby

The Blueseum informs me that the pre-1908 Carlton jumper was the original navy blue with "chamois" yolk refrred to as "The Holy Grail"

However, the 1908 Carlton premiership side appears to have sported an all navy ensemble without the monogram:




I would assume that the footage in that film is of a game between Collingwood and Carlton in 1908-1909, or the footage is of a North v Brunswick match at Brunswicks Gillon Street oval, or a view east across the Arden Street reserve towards the Moonee Ponds creek.

The 'mystery' match I reckon is round 8 1910 Collingwood 6.10-46 v University 6.6-42 at Victoria Park.
The high contrast level in the film may not be showing up University's blue 'V' against their black jumpers.
The hill with trees in the background looks like it could be the other side of the Yarra from Vic Park.
A higher definition version might reveal what is on the scoreboard in the outer.

 

[fabulousphil]

The 'mystery' match I reckon is round 8 1910 Collingwood 6.10-46 v University 6.6-42 at Victoria Park.
The high contrast level in the film may not be showing up University's blue 'V' against their black jumpers.
The hill with trees in the background looks like it could be the other side of the Yarra from Vic Park.
A higher definition version might reveal what is on the scoreboard in the outer.

Spot on IMO, the 2 story house you can se at 10.13 in the film clip is probably number 5 Bath ST Abbotsford.





That is this house http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&...hq=&hnear=5+Bath+St,+Abbotsford+Victoria+3067

Pan to right for house , pan to left for Vic Park wall.


The film maker was probably filming not from the wing, but around HFF or HBF looking towards Johnston St and the Yarra, probably members or ladies stand.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

There was no such thing as "the minor premier" (and there hasn't been since) at the time of this match and the "right of challenge" was removed by the VFA and the VFL from 1905 after Richmond VFA the year before refused to exercise their right to challenge Nth Melbourne in a grand final. (Under the 'Argus system', there was only a 'grand final' if the team finishing on top of the ladder lost either their semi-final or the final. The system was changed in 1931 so that a 4th or 'grand final' was always played.)

See: The Myth of the Minor Premiers.

The Wikipedia article is based on inadequate research as is the explanation of past finals systems in the AFL Record Season Guide.

Splitting hairs somewhat. Whether or not such a thing as "minor premiership" existed or currently exists, it really only serves as shorthand for the team that finished on top of the table after the first round (I would say "home and away" matches, but perhaps that term is anachronistic?). Granted, the Wikipedia article misses the point that it was an obligation, not a right to challenge, and makes matters worse somewhat by stating that no team ever forfeited its "right", but the explanation of why the Grand Final and the Preliminary Final (two terms that have themselve been applied anachronistically) were played by the same teams is still effectively correct.

 

[RogersResults]

Spot on IMO, the 2 story house you can se at 10.13 in the film clip is probably number 5 Bath ST Abbotsford.





That is this house http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&authuser=0&q=5 Bath Street, Abbotsford, Victoria&vps=2&sll=-37.79899,144.997906&sspn=0.002238,0.009602&vpsrc=0&gl=au&g=5 Bath Street, Abbotsford, Victoria&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=5 Bath St, Abbotsford Victoria 3067

Pan to right for house , pan to left for Vic Park wall.


The film maker was probably filming not from the wing, but around HFF or HBF looking towards Johnston St and the Yarra, probably members or ladies stand.

Excellent work - the buildings in Bath Street either side today appear to match as well.
If someone from the 1910 match walked down Bath Street today, they wouldn't notice too many changes - as a street-scape it is a real time capsule.
There is also the clue that the next segment in the film is "Yarra Scenes at Studley Park".
Do you want to tell the National Film and Sound Archive (they like to know these things) or shall I?

Players perhaps glimpsed in the film could be Collingwood's Dick Lee the leading goalkicker 1907-09, 1910, 1914 (equal), 1916-17, 1919, 1921 and Jock McHale who went on to coach the Magpies to 8 Premierships.
For University there would have been Dr. Edward Cordner (you had to be qualified for university entrance, be studying at university or have a degree to play for University) father of the 4 Cordner boys who played in Melbourne's successful teams of the 1940s and 50s.

Footnote:
In 1910 'Marvelous' Melbourne was the biggest city in Australia.

 

[fabulousphil]

Excellent work - the buildings in Bath Street either side today appear to match as well.
If someone from the 1910 match walked down Bath Street today, they wouldn't notice too many changes - as a street-scape it is a real time capsule.
There is also the clue that the next segment in the film is "Yarra Scenes at Studley Park".
Do you want to tell the National Film and Sound Archive (they like to know these things) or shall I?

Players perhaps glimpsed in the film could be Collingwood's Dick Lee the leading goalkicker 1907-09, 1910, 1914 (equal), 1916-17, 1919, 1921 and Jock McHale who went on to coach the Magpies to 8 Premierships.
For University there would have been Dr. Edward Cordner (you had to be qualified for university entrance, be studying at university or have a degree to play for University) father of the 4 Cordner boys who played in Melbourne's successful teams of the 1940s and 50s.

Footnote:
In 1910 'Marvelous' Melbourne was the biggest city in Australia.

Cheers for that, if you want, you can let NF and SA know.

You would expect a big difference betwen 1910 and the early 1970's when i first went to Vic Park as a little kid, but it all just appeared sort of familiar.

Thats why when Hard to beat posted that it was Arden St, i was not entirely convinced, when i went back over what i thought i saw was familiar.

 

[RogersResults]

Splitting hairs somewhat. Whether or not such a thing as "minor premiership" existed or currently exists, it really only serves as shorthand for the team that finished on top of the table after the first round (I would say "home and away" matches, but perhaps that term is anachronistic?). Granted, the Wikipedia article misses the point that it was an obligation, not a right to challenge, and makes matters worse somewhat by stating that no team ever forfeited its "right", the explanation of why the Grand Final and the Preliminary Final (two terms that have themselve been applied anachronistically) were played by the same teams is still effectively correct.

When the new League decided to play finals ( a world first) the first round of matches was called the 'minor round' and the team that finished on top of the ladder instead of being the Premiers as it had been in the VFA was dubbed the "minor premiers". Soon this was dropped and the matches before the finals became the 'first round' and the finals the 'second round'. Next the first round of matches became to be called 'home and home' which by the 1950s became 'home and away'. The term 'minor premiers' with no official status fell away only to somehow come back into currency in more recent times (although other competitions copying it from the VFL more than a century ago have maintained it as an official title.)

Who wants to be the so-called minor (lesser) premiers? Are Collingwood supporters still basking in the light of being the lesser premiers of 2011? Does anybody care about such a status? It is a ridiculous term made all the more ridiculous that it is an anachronism from beyond living memory. Being the McClelland Trophy winners hasn't really caught on either since it awarded to the ladder leaders since 1991.

The actual Premiership is all that matters, do we even need a name for the team on top of the ladder after the first round/home and away matches?

Richmond really put a spanner in the works when they exercised their right not to challenge. The football administrators took the right away so as to not lose any more revenue from teams on principle refusing to play in a Grand Final. (It was a time when principle could override winning.)
Whether Richmond thought that they might drop the 'minor' from their title of 'premiers' by not playing the Grand Final has not come down to us. The Grand Final was forfeited to Nth Melbourne who remain VFA Premiers 1904.

The term 'preliminary final' was used retrospectively before 1931 when the third final was not won by the team that had finishing on top of the ladder.

 

[RogersResults]

Cheers for that, if you want, you can let NF and SA know.

You would expect a big difference betwen 1910 and the early 1970's when i first went to Vic Park as a little kid, but it all just appeared sort of familiar.

Thats why when Hard to beat posted that it was Arden St, i was not entirely convinced, when i went back over what i thought i saw was familiar.

The National Film and Sound Archive had the match as being at the MCG (teams not identified).
Correction has been sent to them - including street view of Bath Street.
Good result - excellent thread.

 

[Joe Mama]

North and Brunswick played off for the 1910 VFA grand final at the Arden Street reserve. 25,000 people attended the match.

I'm pretty sure the scan across the ground is looking over McCauley Rd in the pre gasometer days.

The goals to the right of screen are at the Arden Street end of the ground where the new facility is now located.

Brunswick wore black and white striped jumpers and North wore an all navy blue strip for 6-7 years around this period.

Or it could be Collingwood vs Fitzroy at Victoria Park, Fitzroy wore all dark maroon at that time, and would look very dark in a black & white film, so that could be a possibility, especially when they went from dights falls and studley park on that film.

 

[Groupie_]

Were the blues tanking in that era too ?