1990 - the verdict.

[ptw]

Its been 10 years and what does everyone think.

My view:

The directors of PAFC in 1990 were acting in the best interests of their club...which is what they are put there for.

They were not acting in the best interests of SA football, but you could argue they were not there to do that anyway.

If you take the view that the SANFL were talking to the VFL and plaing hard to get then Port just pulled the rug out completely from underneath them destroying their negotiating position.

You could also argue whether the SANFL were acting in the best interests of SA football as well ???

At the time I was stoked and it was just another chance to stick it up my Norwood mates (who ended up sticking it up me)...but looking back I would like to know what the result for SA football, the national comp, and Port if Port had stuck to the SANFL line and held firm with the other clubs.

I tend to think that:

SA football would be stronger as we may well have had some form of zone to be able to keep players in the state.

The national comp would be better as it would be more of an Australian Football Leauge and not an expanded VFL.

Port would probably be far less significant than it is now.

With hindsight what may have been best if for Port to talk with the SANFL saying "look...were going...but we willgive you 24 months to work out a deal...SO LONG AS we go as well". Easy in hindsight though.

What do you think ?

ptw

 

[Macca19]

I think it was to the benefit of the SANFL. If Port didnt speak with the AFL, then SANFL would be very stale at this stage. Not much money would of been going into the SANFL or the clubs, and it would of got boring. With Port pushing the liscence, the crows were formed, which created a big revenue for the football clubs in this state.
The AFL were having discussions with Norwood at the same stage as having them with Port, but Port beat them to the announcement!
I tend to think that that loser Max Basheer and his cronies were living in the past. Joining the AFL was a step forward for this state. Not a step back as they were thinking. If we didnt push, then SA football would be pretty much dead right about now.

 

[Guest]

I think the lack of turmoil that occurred is the big factor. We still have the second best competition in the land and are attracting some very good discards from the AFL.

It's difficult to wonder what would have happended if the Crows hadn't joined the AFL ten years ago. There would probably still be teams in NSW, QLD and two from WA and SA would have been left out in the cold.

The fact that Port pushed the SANFL into action was, in hindsight, a huge bonus for SA because the SANFL were stuffing around waiting for the VFL to make a load of concessions that were never going to happen.

 

[ptw]

and SA football is not dead now Macca ?

ptw

 

[ptw]

Spogs

if you look at the deal Port had it crapped on the Crows deal...it included significantly more draft concessions, no liscence fee, and the retention of a zone.

If the AFL would offer that to Port why not to the SANFL. In the end they did not have to as the SANFL lost their monopoly on SA football and the AFL could trade Port off against the SANFL.

Anyway...interesting that we should hold these views given our respective teams !!

ptw

 

[Grave Danger]

It's funny really, Port Adelaide has the image of being a 'working class' club whose supporters are a bunch of dole bludging ferals. But when you look a bit deeper, Port's audacious go-it-alone 1990 bid and the fact that the second AFL license went to one club, rather than another SANFL-wide collective would have the free enterprise purists smiling.

Premier Olson should be a Port supporter!

 

[carb70]

I believe Port were sucked in by the VFL. They were really in a no win situation it was either they make the move to the VFL or Norwood were going to jump in before them. The thing that pissed me off was then Norwood played innocent like they were the good boys.

Then Glenelg take us to court, but I was never prouder of the club than GF day 1990 when we beat Glenelg out on the field not in the courts and I will never forget the look on the faces of the pathetic Glenelg supporters as I walked out of Football Park.

The SANFL I believe were going to join the VFL but they wanted to join it under their conditions not the VFLs. I think Port took that option away from the SANFL.

I believe if Port didn't try to join in 1990 we would today have Norwood and Port in the AFL instead of the Crows. We would of had one team on the Eastern side of town the other on the Western and their would be a better rivalry with even supporter bases. Then we could of had Norwood and Port reserve sides in the SANFL.

I think the SANFL would be happy with the Crows being a finacial success though but they did have a 7 year head start on Port which means they have the majority of the states supporter base. The SANFL are probably a bit concerned about Ports situation as far as crowds and the finacial loss recorded last year. But that will be ok in years to come because I beleive the club is heading in the right direction to be the states more successful team which will bring the people to our games.

I think the biggest loser out of all this has been Norwood but as far as the local league goes it still strong but not as strong as it was 10 years ago but you could also say that the league in 1990 wasn't as strong as it was in 1980 and so on. I think the SANFL will survive mainly because of our 2 AFL clubs.

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ptw:
and SA football is not dead now Macca ?

ptw

no i dont think it is. I think its going ok. There is a lot more money going thru, a lot more past AFL players going thru the SANFL, the skill level i believe has stayed on a par i think, seeing as most of the SANFL players with skill have been drafted.
I think its going ok...crowds are down, but thats bound to happen with two AFL teams, and the crows playing away usually on a saturday arvo which is when the SANFL games are played.

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ptw:
Spogs

if you look at the deal Port had it crapped on the Crows deal...it included significantly more draft concessions, no liscence fee, and the retention of a zone.

If the AFL would offer that to Port why not to the SANFL. In the end they did not have to as the SANFL lost their monopoly on SA football and the AFL could trade Port off against the SANFL.
ptw

The AFL wanted Port in...not an adelaide side. They spoke to both Norwood and Port in 1990, Port went public about it, while Norwood lied about the whole thing to save face. The AFL has always wanted Port in thr league.

 

[Asgardian]

Ports moves circa 1990 were pre-emptive, if we did not make said moves, the AFL would have got a SA team through another door.

I was of the opinion the SANFL directors were most comfortable camped on their hands around that time.

The SANFL was going to suffer a decline, because we did not have the available cash reserves to long hold off the recruiting of our good players. So in effect Port's stand forced the issue, and ultimately has proven to be a financial godsend to the SANFL.

------------------
Chris

(Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus)

 

[ptw]

Asgardian

that's one way of looking at it.

The other way is that the SANFL were actually negotiating with the VFL....just looking to enter a team on the SANFL's not the VFL's terms.

By Port doing what we did we took that option away from the SANFL...who were forced with a gun to their head to negotiate knowing that at any time the AFL could walk straight to Port and have a team anyway.

Macca

The AFL did not want Port at all. The AFL directors voted 9-6 against Port and 15-1 in favour of Adelaide (people say this was an issue with Collingwood but ignore the other 5 clubs who voted against us). The AFL wanted a team from SA to get the TV rights. They wanted that team to be as popular as possible. This meant first priority was a composite side...2nd was the most popular state side.

I agree that Norwood were the big losers and that their cries were a bit hard to take at the time given their obvious involvement as well.

I still think it was the wrong thing to do....if you look at it from a SA football perspective.

ptw

 

[Macca19]

Hey Chris

from what remember and have read, the AFL board had always wanted port inn, but couldnt pass it alone. From memory, the AFL contacted Port, but Norwood contacted the AFL about the matters, something along those lines

 

[Mudholian]

Originally posted by carb70:
I believe Port were sucked in by the VFL. SNIP

A good summary. Lets be specific about how the AFl "sucked Port in".

Port had made no secret of their intentions to enter the VFL/AFL. Discussions had been going on since the early 80's. But the first club to break rank on the so called "Victor Harbor Accord" was Norwood, not Port, as you have said.

These negotiations were initiated in secret behind the back of the SANFL on June 8 1990 when the board of the Norwood Football Club invited Ian Collins and John Adams to a presentation by the NFC board on the advantages of Norwood being the first SA side in. This is AFTER Norwood had voted - with the Port Rep Dave Boyd - not to pursue the entry of an SA team.

The sucking in part is that the correspondence between the Norwood Football Club and the AFL was leaked to the Port Adelaide Football Club and others in order to do one of two things: 1) force Norwood to declare their intentions OR 2) force Port to respond.

However when this became public, QUOTE "Norwood then RAN SCARED and accused us of being the stooges of the AFL" said Collins. "But they got that all wrong".

Meanwhile Port initiated its own meeting with Schwab, but not until July. Rather than "running scared", the PAFC decided it would go for it.

"The SANFL was caught sitting on its hands" writes Garry Linnell, who documents the full account of this much misrepresented chapter in SA football history in his "Football LTD - The Inside Story of the AFL" pages 347-350.

So my view is this. As in a lot of defining moments in PA culture, the end justifies the means, and the end is to win. We did - in the end.
MH

 

[Asgardian]

10 years on from 10 years on

Mods, hope you guys don't mind this bump, but I reckon a revision is now worthwhile.

I stand by my post from 2001, without Port's activity in 1990 the SANFL was going to remain in a state of inertia, feeling the monetary retention scheme was to be its panacea.

This was not only ignorant, but very arrogant, after all it dismissed the notion that most of the SANFL players wished to test themselves against, and within, the best.

At that stage the money available was comparable, however how long could the SANFL pump money in without the ability to generate larger sums through greater exposure, or creating new markets?

Very limited ability in my point of view.

Other media markets wanted the buy the best product, that was the VFL.

The VFL was generating fresh money by being able to create space for new competitors, such as West Coast & Brisbane. They had plans for further expansion. Hence they offered a national product to national broadcasters. Naturally that product was always going to swamp the isolated state league and state broadcast. The sheer volume of money would have eventually driven the vulnerable SANFL clubs to be no more than amateur entities, unable to retain their better players.

In time the SANFL would have had to fold on its opposition to joining an expanding VFL that was now the AFL. A position with zero bargaining power, far worse than what was available in 1990.

Port's initiative saved the SANFL.

However the narrow minded opposition opinion, driven by a few outraged individuals, was able by greater exposure to label us as 'traitors'.

Nothing could have been further from the truth.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Really how many times do we want to reopen this debate? It's not like it hasn't been covered in plenty of threads in the past X years.

OK if you must, but to save the mods what could become a ridiculous workload, this is going to be very tightly monitored. Opposition posters you have fair warning.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

It was interesting to read this thread from the dark ages but there is no way known it won't end up in a card fest / shit fight because opinions are they same they were 20 years ago and we will never agree with scum supporters and they will never concede.

 

[Forzaport]

Maybe in some alternate universe Port never did what it did and the SANFL died in the arse. Maybe in another one the VFL expansion failed.

Truth is we'll never know what would've happened. Ultimately, Port is in the AFL and that's what matters. Sure we've been bled dry by the SANFL and had our supporter base fractured, but at least we're in the AFL.

 

[PortBrillance]

personally I'd like to hear opinions of other SANFL club supporters who were alive at the time in 1990 (ie, crows fans)

There's nothing on the main board, only shitfights on the bay about it.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

personally I'd like to hear opinions of other SANFL club supporters who were alive at the time in 1990 (ie, crows fans)

There's nothing on the main board, only shitfights on the bay about it.

Do a search bro, this argument is all over the shop.

 

[Macca19]

epic bump!

I reckon that was about 2 or 3 days after I joined here!

 

[FishingRick04]

personally I'd like to hear opinions of other SANFL club supporters who were alive at the time in 1990 (ie, crows fans)

There's nothing on the main board, only shitfights on the bay about it.

I was excited
I was devasted
I was then deluded as I supported the Crows and Port thinking the whole Sa V Vic rivalry thing
As time went on the Crows sucked
Port came in and that was it, Port all the way.

 

[Fazualdo]

At the time (1990) I did a little political cartoon with our Magpie stabbing Basheer in the back and then Max coming back with an uzi.

Still bitter we didn't get in then and will always wonder what could of been...

 

[Andre]

Well an epic fail on the part of the SANFL, with the exception of their bank balances - then again I think that's all they truly care about *cough* catering at AAMI *cough*.

They didn't want a strong Port, so every club except Port lost more supporters to the Crows.
They wanted the SANFL to be a step below the AFL - it's a step up from Amateur league at best these days.
They wanted to remain wheelers and dealers. Well if you count blocking anything that looks like progress I suppose they still are this. Zero input on how the game is run as a national competition. They don't do a good job getting either SA club decent time slots to show off their stadium.

Of course my real contempt and happy (for me) vindictiveness is to all the other SANFL clubs thinking keeping Port out of the AFL in 1990 would be a good thing for them. I mean really, how on earth would anyone with any sense, after 5 minutes of thinking through Port, versus a club that take supporters from all their clubs instead possibly be a good thing?!

I reserve the greatest scorn for Norwood - a bunch of cowards, going to the AFL themselves, then when they think someone else is doing it going squibbing to the folks (Max and Leigh). For those few Norwood fans who still bother to follow them in the SANFL I wonder how they feel, knowing if their club hadn't been such backstabbing 2 faced hypocrites and Port had gotten into the AFL in 1990, the first Showdown in 1997 would likely have been Port v. Norwood in the AFL?

The SANFL and other SANFL clubs got everything they deserved. If Port hadn't moved to get in back then, Max and Leigh would either still be arguing over how the AFL should bend over backwards before the first SA side joins in 2011, or they'd have finally realised sometime around 2000 they aren't the big fish they thought they were and negotiated from a position of much greater weakness, seeing any SA club start with less concessions then Port (hard considering we had the worst of any startup side) and a license fee twice the size.

 

[Portology]

Well an epic fail on the part of the SANFL, with the exception of their bank balances - then again I think that's all they truly care about *cough* catering at AAMI *cough*.

They didn't want a strong Port, so every club except Port lost more supporters to the Crows.
They wanted the SANFL to be a step below the AFL - it's a step up from Amateur league at best these days.
They wanted to remain wheelers and dealers. Well if you count blocking anything that looks like progress I suppose they still are this. Zero input on how the game is run as a national competition. They don't do a good job getting either SA club decent time slots to show off their stadium.

Of course my real contempt and happy (for me) vindictiveness is to all the other SANFL clubs thinking keeping Port out of the AFL in 1990 would be a good thing for them. I mean really, how on earth would anyone with any sense, after 5 minutes of thinking through Port, versus a club that take supporters from all their clubs instead possibly be a good thing?!

I reserve the greatest scorn for Norwood - a bunch of cowards, going to the AFL themselves, then when they think someone else is doing it going squibbing to the folks (Max and Leigh). For those few Norwood fans who still bother to follow them in the SANFL I wonder how they feel, knowing if their club hadn't been such backstabbing 2 faced hypocrites and Port had gotten into the AFL in 1990, the first Showdown in 1997 would likely have been Port v. Norwood in the AFL?

The SANFL and other SANFL clubs got everything they deserved. If Port hadn't moved to get in back then, Max and Leigh would either still be arguing over how the AFL should bend over backwards before the first SA side joins in 2011, or they'd have finally realised sometime around 2000 they aren't the big fish they thought they were and negotiated from a position of much greater weakness, seeing any SA club start with less concessions then Port (hard considering we had the worst of any startup side) and a license fee twice the size.

very much an Adelaide story eh? too big for a town; too small for a city.

without 1990, we'd have had an imported side using AO by now, may even have been Fitzroy, in competition to an irrelevant SANFL at west lakes. depends on how much the VFL was spoiling for a fight they would win in the long term (vs desperate for TV revenue in the short term). one day hopefully get a good historical look at all account books of the time. OTOH, had we abstained from Victor Harbour pact not to join VFL, and from a few other SANFL votes on long term marketing with SA Brewing, etc, the SANFL court case against us may have looked shaky and worth fighting, and in that scenario a restraint of trade counter suit feasible, with a better balanced compromise the outcome for us - and whoever the 2nd licensee ended up.

I p*** myself laughing at the irony on the Cows board when they come out and say no one would have picked up on Norwood as the 2nd AFL team if Port had been the first. Then I think about it some more shake my head and think "welcome to Adelaide, you've been living here 98% of your life, you should be used to it by now". You don't know what you've got till its gone, and you are so chip on the shoulder you only worry about stuff when it tries to run away. F*** off and go rip up some more vineyards for suburbs while refusing to build anything taller than a stobie pole in the CBD, you part time morons.

1990, the verdict: uglier than anyone could have imagined, but worth it.

 

[Mitch Power]

Well an epic fail on the part of the SANFL, with the exception of their bank balances - then again I think that's all they truly care about *cough* catering at AAMI *cough*.

They didn't want a strong Port, so every club except Port lost more supporters to the Crows.
They wanted the SANFL to be a step below the AFL - it's a step up from Amateur league at best these days.
They wanted to remain wheelers and dealers. Well if you count blocking anything that looks like progress I suppose they still are this. Zero input on how the game is run as a national competition. They don't do a good job getting either SA club decent time slots to show off their stadium.

Of course my real contempt and happy (for me) vindictiveness is to all the other SANFL clubs thinking keeping Port out of the AFL in 1990 would be a good thing for them. I mean really, how on earth would anyone with any sense, after 5 minutes of thinking through Port, versus a club that take supporters from all their clubs instead possibly be a good thing?!

I reserve the greatest scorn for Norwood - a bunch of cowards, going to the AFL themselves, then when they think someone else is doing it going squibbing to the folks (Max and Leigh). For those few Norwood fans who still bother to follow them in the SANFL I wonder how they feel, knowing if their club hadn't been such backstabbing 2 faced hypocrites and Port had gotten into the AFL in 1990, the first Showdown in 1997 would likely have been Port v. Norwood in the AFL?

The SANFL and other SANFL clubs got everything they deserved. If Port hadn't moved to get in back then, Max and Leigh would either still be arguing over how the AFL should bend over backwards before the first SA side joins in 2011, or they'd have finally realised sometime around 2000 they aren't the big fish they thought they were and negotiated from a position of much greater weakness, seeing any SA club start with less concessions then Port (hard considering we had the worst of any startup side) and a license fee twice the size.

Congrats Andre, could not have put it better. When the news first broke out, I was so excited that my club would be playing in the AFL. For those of you who did not experience it, it divided families and friendships. Being a Port supporter was the greatest feeling in the world. How I was totally gutted when we the crows got in ahead of us and to this day I despise them and collingwood who played a major role in 1990. If I remember correctly, the first vote of the 16 clubs went 8 for and against Port with Collingwood lobbying hard to keep us out. The 2nd vote some time later went 15 to 1 with Richmond the only club to vote for Port. That is why I will always have a soft spot for them.

The late and great Bruce Webber said in 1990 that "if we get in next year, Port Adelaide will win a premiership within 3 years and be as big as Collingwood". I truly believe that because all the new supporters picked up by the crows would have joined Port. On the field, with the moratorium Bruce negotiated in the Heads of Agreement with the AFL would have given Port sole access to SA players for 3 years and pick up up 8 uncontracted players in the AFL. This meant that home grown players like Wanganeen, Buckley, McLeod, Ricciuto, Hynes, Hodges, Anderson...the list goes on would have all played for Port. The other significant condition in the Heads of Agreement signed by AFL CEO at the time Ross Oakley was that Port would have played in the famous Prison Bars jump but ofcourse change the nickname.

I feel very proud and privileged that my footy club is playing in the best league in the land but it could have been even better.