List Mgmt. 2011 AFL Rookie Draft

[tomthabuddah]

It's likely that the club already went through the process at the end of 2009 when Geelong was prepared to trade with Essendon for him. Since then he's played 0 games of AFL, while simultaneously managing to further trash his reputation from off-field incidents and ageing another 2 years. His position was a lot stronger then than it is now, just can't see exactly what role he would play that the guys we already have couldn't do better. Getting him not only becomes redundant but counterproductive to the guys from the 08/09 drafts, as well as Competing for flanker spots with guys like Hogan, Byrnes, Stokes, Smedts, Bews. Better to get another couple of kids who we can put 2 solid years of development into, which in turn can help with staggering the retirements of Bartel/Kelly/Johnson/J.Hunt as they happen over the next 3-4 seasons. Lovett being 30 next year does not help this overlap as he is likely to be cooked around the same time - we've already done enough short term acquisition in the form of Podsiadly and Stephenson.

I do not disagree with any of that. However i do think that we are in a unique window where ever stone must be turned over. I can safely say i have not seen Lovett play the majority of his games, but the games i did see, he seemed to shine. Granted that was some time ago and probably muddied by inconsistency, but he is a game breaker, and one that could make a significant contribution. Few points to note, he would get a pretty easy run in Geelong midfield, unlikely to be tagged or paid that much attention. I really think he could suit us. Provided obviously he was smart enough to realise there will be no second chances. He nearly went to jail, had his career taken away, i just think this could shake this guy into a pretty big season. I think a rookie list spot on mimimum wage and conditional on good behaviour is worth the risk. Just my view.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

If you check out post #158 you'll find that his reputation exceeds his output.

 

[tomthabuddah]

Even if that is the case, put him on rookie list, and dont use him unless either he plays the house down in the VFL or we have long term injuries. Insurance for a very important season.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

But then we go back to that repellent personality thing. Why put someone on the list at age 30, who isn't that good, just to have as backup if nobody wants to play with him? There is no sense to it. 2012 is no more important to the club than 2013, 2014 etc. If the club wants to try for back-to-back then putting a guy on the rookie list with a million caveats won't bring them any closer to it.

 

[tomthabuddah]

But then we go back to that repellent personality thing. Why put someone on the list at age 30, who isn't that good, just to have as backup if nobody wants to play with him? There is no sense to it. 2012 is no more important to the club than 2013, 2014 etc. If the club wants to try for back-to-back then putting a guy on the rookie list with a million caveats won't bring them any closer to it.

Who says no one wants to play with him. Its a football club, they are footballers, he is a pretty good one (abit you disagree). 2012 is a huge year for the club. Its a point of contention whether he is worth the risk. Your posts do not reflect or seem to understand this.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Who says no one wants to play with him. Its a football club, they are footballers, he is a pretty good one (abit you disagree). 2012 is a huge year for the club. Its a point of contention whether he is worth the risk. Your posts do not reflect or seem to understand this.

St Kilda's list revolted after attempting to "bond" with him, he has very few friends at Essendon and from firsthand experience, he is not a very likeable guy. What makes 2012 so huge that the club should try to fix something not broken, with something very broken? I don't consider "going back-to-back" a special circumstance to bring in a guy who wouldn't be in our best 22.

 

[David the Cat]

well the St Kilda blokes dropped him like a hot scone. Not one...not one..player spoke positively about him or showed any inclination to publicly support him. St Kilda clearly wanted nothing to do with him either. He was pariah....and strangely, almost immediately.

Think what you might of the Saints, but clubs stick by their players ....I am sure I dont have to give examples but Didak is one that jumps to mind readily...Lovett was cast out without a word of support. No-one from Essendon came to his defence either..not one former teamate..and they have indicated no interest in him returning to the fold.

For mine, that tells me plenty. Group behaviour in men, particularly in football clubs, (not to mention football club culture) is predicated on loyalty, trust and support. Bikie groups are another example of this. Its very odd, very odd indeed, that Lovett was provided with no support at all from clubs, or players before the matter went to the courts.....or subsequently.

Lovett is a good player but not a great player. I don't see him in a Geelong jumper.

 

[tomthabuddah]

St Kilda's list revolted after attempting to "bond" with him, he has very few friends at Essendon and from firsthand experience, he is not a very likeable guy. What makes 2012 so huge that the club should try to fix something not broken, with something very broken? I don't consider "going back-to-back" a special circumstance to bring in a guy who wouldn't be in our best 22.

Worst case, he plays a few games in the VFL, we ask him to leave/pay out his base level 1 year contract. I really cannot see him breaking down the club as seems to be suggested.
Best case, he plays a defining role in a premiership.
Others may disagree, but I see us dropping off in 2013 once Scarlett, Corey, Enright etc come to an end. You obviously disagree and that is fine. Lets see what happens on draft day, odds on, Lovett is not even drafted. And im fine with that. Appreciate the debate and differing views.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Worst case, he plays a few games in the VFL, we ask him to leave/pay out his base level 1 year contract. I really cannot see him breaking down the club as seems to be suggested.
Best case, he plays a defining role in a premiership.
Others may disagree, but I see us dropping off in 2013 once Scarlett, Corey, Enright etc come to an end. You obviously disagree and that is fine. Lets see what happens on draft day, odds on, Lovett is not even drafted. And im fine with that. Appreciate the debate and differing views.

No, worst case is that we rookie him instead of Darrou or some other kid, another club picks them and and they excel and Lovett gets the flick after not firing a shot. Nobody wants to get duped out of a 10 year player for a serial w***er who hasn't played AFL for two years, is now 30, and hasn't set the world on fire in the lesser comps. Lovett has the rest of his life to work on his mistakes, but he doesn't deserve a second chance based on previous on-field AND off-field performances.

 

[tomthabuddah]

Hmm this is now an entirely separate issue. We just picked up a 30 year old ruckman, so i guess we missed out on another 10 year gun. Peace out.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Hmm this is now an entirely separate issue. We just picked up a 30 year old ruckman, so i guess we missed out on another 10 year gun. Peace out.

We picked up a mature ruckman who has been dominant for the last 4 years in the VFL, to go with the other 3 ruckmen on the list with a combined total of 30 games experience. No disciplinary issues and has been told that he will - WILL play senior football. Simpson, West and Vardy are all longer term prospects so the inclusion of an older player makes sense. Our midfielders are mostly on the wrong side of 28, with some younger heads ready to take over in a couple of years - but Corey, Bartel, Kelly, Chapman are all older heads now. There's no use for Lovett in the presence of Wojcinski, Varcoe, Taylor Hunt, Duncan, Christensen, Motlop, Byrnes etc. either already doing the role that Lovett plays, or will be ready for it when the first 4 guys are retired. Don't compare our rucks to our mids because it's apples and oranges.

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

We're more likely to pick up a Carl Peterson, who is 5 years younger than Lovett and a very similar player. If he can finally commit to AFL, he might be just the player we need

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

anyhow I am confident Lovett won't be at Geelong anyways but I'd like to see a little more speed injected into the team but with young McCarthy now on the list along with Byrnes who had numerous setbacks this year, we should match teams like Carlton & Essendon who use it to their advantage

 

[AM]

I do respect it mate believe you me, but......isn't AFL about winning games every week until the final season decider?
I dislike the bloke immensely but look at what Krakouer did for Collingwood throughout the year (ok sure he failed when it mattered) but Lovett would be every bit as good as he around goals and especially breaking the tackle and exploding away to setup Hawkins or Stevie J in the forward line.
Similar player and age with checkered past etc that proved those who value culture so highly wrong.

Oh really! Like our CEO, coach, playing group and more recently our Prez who said in The Australian “Culture, he says, is equally important in a footy club, and far more critical to success than a high draft pick”. You don't appear to get the importance of character and culture to a winning ethos.Or have noted how success followed when our culture changed and we marked that change with strong action like in the SJ case. Now used as a template by other clubs.

The key difference between Lovett and others is he's an anti social recidivist. Look it up . He has a litany of offences going back years. Missing training sessions, driving without a licence, drunk in a public place and issued a court intervention order following assault on his then girfriend. He just doesn't learn. That's why he was given his marching orders from two AFL clubs and why no sensible club wants a bar of him now.

Had you heard or read any of Stephen Wells public comments you'd know he looks for way more than raw talent when picking recruits. Or had you heard or read much of Ron Barassi you'd know what a deleterious affect one bad apple can have on a team. He's described it as having the potential to spread like a cancer.

Recently, at a corporate function in Canberra attended by Gubby Allan and Stephen Silvagni to drum up support for GWS, Silvagni said that no matter how good the recruits they get are if they don't get the underlying culture right they won't be successful. And he apparently pointed to us as the benchmark in that regard.

You just don't appear to get what club culture is, how important it is to the ethos of any worthwhile sporting organisation (or for that matter organisation generally) and that raw football talent without it counts for little.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Ammo that's your opinion on culture etc and fair enough

I just don't believe what I read or hear unless I know the person and you guys sound like you know these guys personally.

You are probably right, I myself wouldn't survive in a football atmosphere and thus look at what culture means in a different light because it's not for everyone and each individual cannot adhere to certain rules or obtain necessary training routines.

Take a look at any sporting code around the world and you will see the very best teams have problematic personalities but they succeed.
This is all pointless now as Lovett won't be playing for Geelong but don't ever believe everything you read or hear in the media.

 

[TheHonestyPolicy]

Oh really! Like our CEO, coach, playing group and more recently our Prez who said in The Australian “Culture, he says, is equally important in a footy club, and far more critical to success than a high draft pick”. You don't appear to get the importance of character and culture to a winning ethos.Or have noted how success followed when our culture changed and we marked that change with strong action like in the SJ case. Now used as a template by other clubs.

The key difference between Lovett and others is he's an anti social recidivist. Look it up . He has a litany of offences going back years. Missing training sessions, driving without a licence, drunk in a public place and issued a court intervention order following assault on his then girfriend. He just doesn't learn. That's why he was given his marching orders from two AFL clubs and why no sensible club wants a bar of him now.

Had you heard or read any of Stephen Wells public comments you'd know he looks for way more than raw talent when picking recruits. Or had you heard or read much of Ron Barassi you'd know what a deleterious affect one bad apple can have on a team. He's described it as having the potential to spread like a cancer.

Recently, at a corporate function in Canberra attended by Gubby Allan and Stephen Silvagni to drum up support for GWS, Silvagni said that no matter how good the recruits they get are if they don't get the underlying culture right they won't be successful. And he apparently pointed to us as the benchmark in that regard.

You just don't appear to get what club culture is, how important it is to the ethos of any worthwhile sporting organisation (or for that matter organisation generally) and that raw football talent without it counts for little.

Sounds like SJ etc. Correct me please but who does he still play for? There are others too.

As for the restraining order, dime a dozen. If he committed assault, the police charge him with assault, so was he charged with assualt Ammo in that instance, or you trying out as a HS reporter all of a sudden? He was charged with rape and that didnt stick either. Hmmmm. I mean, should we take the Saints' players testimony at face value that night is the question given their own littany of offences over the years.

Funny, I could have sworn some in here were laughing a treat at Vards' porno twitter account, yet a guy has a few drinks at a T**ty bar, and WTF should we all be making about the evils of alcohol and a woman's breasts all of a sudden? FFS

I am not interested in Lovett, and we wont rookie him, but good point Bobby, boy have the media done a number on a few gullible dills in here.

 

[vinum coupe]

You can argue the virtue of being in a T**ty bar all you like.

But if I'd lived 24 months with a cloud over my head that's the last place I'd be in the lead up to the draft. (if I was taking my professional life seriously of course)

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

yeh but again, that's wrong from your point of view but it is the off-season remember and he is 29 years of age and I really do not see any issue whatsoever for a 29 year old male to be seen in a strip joint as long as he was not stepping out of line or got into any trouble then what is wrong with that?

I'm 27 and have been to many a T**ty bar (Kittens) I don't like the place myself but friends see the fun side in it so you stroll along.
Sure I ain't anyone who the public may notice but for all we know it may have been the 2nd or 3rd time in about 3 years he's been to a T**ty bar and it's the night he got spotted and someone opens their mouth and it now becomes an officially revolting thing he has done.

You have to live your life no matter what others think and if you were a professional player Vinum....perhaps you would choose to live indoors as a recluse which is your positive way of thinking (nothing wrong with that either) but 'come on now', 29 year old's are in their prime and on the prowl and that includes football players

Some players prefer to open up pornography websites using their twitter accounts too, as long as it's legal and all in appropriate use then what's the big problem

 

[candiehappy]

I put Lovett in the same camp as Fevola. Talented footballers with serious personal problems. I just don't think that we need that sort of person at our club, not even at the potential cost of another flag.

 

[CatTricks]

We don't need Fev or Lovett to take us to another flag...

The group we have can achieve virtually anything.. Things may be harder with the loss of some champions but if anyone can do it we can.

Back the group in and write us off at your peril.

 

[AM]

yeh but again, that's wrong from your point of view but it is the off-season remember and he is 29 years of age and I really do not see any issue whatsoever for a 29 year old male to be seen in a strip joint as long as he was not stepping out of line or got into any trouble then what is wrong with that?

I'm 27 and have been to many a T**ty bar (Kittens) I don't like the place myself but friends see the fun side in it so you stroll along.
Sure I ain't anyone who the public may notice but for all we know it may have been the 2nd or 3rd time in about 3 years he's been to a T**ty bar and it's the night he got spotted and someone opens their mouth and it now becomes an officially revolting thing he has done.

You have to live your life no matter what others think and if you were a professional player Vinum....perhaps you would choose to live indoors as a recluse which is your positive way of thinking (nothing wrong with that either) but 'come on now', 29 year old's are in their prime and on the prowl and that includes football players

Some players prefer to open up pornography websites using their twitter accounts too, as long as it's legal and all in appropriate use then what's the big problem

What you have to do is set standards and adhere to them. You don’t seem to appreciate the importance of that Bobby.


Let’s take it outside footy. Let’s say you were in a law firm looking for a corporate lawyer. A hot shot applies. Problem is he’s had his practicing certificate removed a number of times for misdemeanours and been in trouble for anti social behaviour many times also. He has a long history of poor behaviour and been sacked by two prominent law firms because of his disruptive behaviour. On the basis of your reasoning because he’s a hot shot lawyer you’d hire him because he’d add something to the talent pool. Stuff the company standards. Stuff the potential damage to the image of the firm. Stuff the prospect of the harmonious working atmosphere going down the gurgler. And let’s not be concerned that his history demonstrates he’s more likely than not to re-offend. Good way to destroy a firm that!

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

What you have to do is set standards and adhere to them. You don’t seem to appreciate the importance of that Bobby.


Let’s take it outside footy. Let’s say you were in a law firm looking for a corporate lawyer. A hot shot applies. Problem is he’s had his practicing certificate removed a number of times for misdemeanours and been in trouble for anti social behaviour many times also. He has a long history of poor behaviour and been sacked by two prominent law firms because of his disruptive behaviour. On the basis of your reasoning because he’s a hot shot lawyer you’d hire him because he’d add something to the talent pool. Stuff the company standards. Stuff the potential damage to the image of the firm. Stuff the prospect of the harmonious working atmosphere going down the gurgler. And let’s not be concerned that his history demonstrates he’s more likely than not to re-offend. Good way to destroy a firm that!

lol that's a very good analogy
but as you know by my comments in this thread, I'd take that hotshot lawyer every day of the week...why?
Because he is going to make my business plenty of money in winning case after case and assuring customers come to our firm because of that success rate.
Business is about money, if an individual has misdemeanors away from work but does the job fine, I'd certainly do my best to make sure they are seeking counseling on those very problems but I wouldn't let him/her go just because of their personality outside of work.
I'm running this business to make money and nothing more.

You should know that there is not a single company in this world that is 100% genuine and goes about the rules in a perfect manor because if they did....the company would simply fall behind and go out of business in the long run.
It's only in recent years with OH&S regulations and various other work-safe policies that businesses are cleaning up their act.

Human beings by nature are greedy/sadistic animals and I don't care how much talk of a wonderful culture Geelong or any other top organization have...they will always have problematic personalities in which they seem to work around or at least put in steps to rectify those issues.

Fevola is probably the most famous case of this but in his time at Carlton, he produced on the football field and it did not make any difference whatsoever as Carlton were rotten for a good decade.
He went to Brisbane and the same issue sprung up again but Brisbane were absolutely rotten in his time there as well.
I think it's very easy to blame a single individual for a team's poor performance as it takes a lot of the spotlight away from them.

Michael Voss has got off very lightly for his sh*t coaching and decision making in his time there so far but he sure did his best to keep the Fevola issue at the forefront of his teams demise.

Again, Ammo..........if you could take a young Wayne Carey knowing full well what he will do in the years ahead off-field, would you take him which would likely ensure further premierships and overall success or would you snub him and decide to go with another one hit wonder and fall back amongst the pack?

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

let's play some footy and you get to pick your 6 players and it's come down to Mensch and Carey.

I know your taking Mensch because of Carey's poor track record off-field, so I'm more than happy to pick Carey and win game after game (no offense Menschy)

and in the decades ahead....what will be the topic of conversation?

"Gee whiz! That team had a wonderful culture, top blokes all round"

or

"5 premierships in 10 years, what a wonderful team!"

 

[meto]

Saw us taking Ben Darrou in the phantom rookie, would top off a fabulous draft season if that happened, bit of a powerhouse this kid.
Will compliment the talent already selected.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Saw us taking Ben Darrou in the phantom rookie, would top off a fabulous draft season if that happened, bit of a powerhouse this kid.
Will compliment the talent already selected.

absolutely

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