Opinion 2011 Top 50

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eaglespremiers said:
Very few forwards play traditional full forward roles these days.
He is still, for the greater part, a key forward and I'm not too concerned about how many disposals a game he is getting.
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Lol okay, if you don't think how many times a player is involved in the play that's ok. Despite the fact he is a ball magnet, he also averages over 3 tackles a game, is number 1 in the comp for effective kicks, is leading the Coleman by 9 goals despite playing 2 less games than Cloke, is number 1 in the comp for goals contributed and has more BOGs than any other "Key" forward by a mile this year.

Geez you're a harsh marker :p Each to their own like I said.
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
Lol okay, if you don't think how many times a player is involved in the play that's ok. Despite the fact he is a ball magnet, he also averages over 3 tackles a game, is number 1 in the comp for effective kicks, is leading the Coleman by 9 goals despite playing 2 less games than Cloke, is number 1 in the comp for goals contributed and has more BOGs than any other "Key" forward by a mile this year.

Geez you're a harsh marker :p Each to their own like I said.
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No, you read my wrong.
I am impressed by his disposal count.
Yet, I am more impressed by the amount of contested marks Cloke has taken this year.
Disposals aren't always a good indicator of being involved in a game anyway (just look at Matty Boyd ;)).
I was more impressed with Franklin's '08.
 
My opinion of top 50: As OP, I'm not too fussed about order from 30+, some may say I am a bit biased to put Rance in the mix but the people who doubt his skill have probably not watched him play.

1) Dane Swan (Coll)
2) Gary Ablett (GCFC)
3) Scott Pendlebury (Coll)
4) Chris Judd (Carl)
5) Scott Thompson (Adel)
6) Lance Franklin (Haw)
7) Matthew Boyd (Bull)
8) Aaron Sandilands (Frem)
9) Nick Dal Santo (Saints)
10) Joel Selwood (Geel)
11) Sam Mitchell (Haw)
12) Adam Goodes (Syd)
13) Travis Cloke (Coll)
14) Matthew Pavlich (Frem)
15) Marc Murphy (Carl)
16) Dustin Martin (Rich)
17) Matthew Priddis (Eagles)
18) Jobe Watson (Ess)
19) James Bartel (Geel)
20) Brendan Goddard (Saints)
21) Dean Cox (Eagles)
22) Nathan Fyfe (Frem)
23) Luke McPharlin (Frem)
24) Dale Thomas (Coll)
25) Nathan Bock (GCFC)
26) Brett Deledio (Rich)
27) Steve Johnson (Geel)
28) Matthew Scarlett (Geel)
29) Todd Goldstein (Roos)
30) Trent Cotchin (Rich)
31) Bryce Gibbs (Carl)
32) Josh Gibson (Haw)
33) Paul Chapman (Geel)
34) Ben Reid (Coll)
35) Heath Shaw (Coll)
36) Shane Mumford (Syd)
37) Andrew Swallow (Roos)
38) Jack Riewoldt (Rich)
39) David Mundy (Frem)
40) Andrew Walker (Carl)
41) Ryan Griffen (Bull)
42) Corey Enright (Geel)
43) Tom Rockliff (Bris)
44) Josh Kennedy (Eagles)
45) Drew Petrie (Roos)
46) Daniel Wells (Roos)
47) Alex Rance (Rich)
48) Jack Trengove (Melb)
49) Jack Redden (Bris)
50) Ben McEvoy (Saints)
 

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To above list, Pavlich and Sandilands far too high. Pavlich has been quite ordinary and Sandi has missed half of the season. Perhaps Selwood is a bit too high going on games missed.
Cox should definitely be higher than that, as should Murphy and Mitchell. All could claim to being close to no.1 player this year (although 5 or 6 are in the mix). Other than that it looks pretty good.
 
Martin_Riewoldt said:
My opinion of top 50: As OP, I'm not too fussed about order from 30+, some may say I am a bit biased to put Rance in the mix but the people who doubt his skill have probably not watched him play.

1) Dane Swan (Coll)
2) Gary Ablett (GCFC)
3) Scott Pendlebury (Coll)
4) Chris Judd (Carl)
5) Scott Thompson (Adel)
6) Lance Franklin (Haw)
7) Matthew Boyd (Bull)
8) Aaron Sandilands (Frem)
9) Nick Dal Santo (Saints)
10) Joel Selwood (Geel)
11) Sam Mitchell (Haw)
12) Adam Goodes (Syd)
13) Travis Cloke (Coll)
14) Matthew Pavlich (Frem)
15) Marc Murphy (Carl)
16) Dustin Martin (Rich)
17) Matthew Priddis (Eagles)
18) Jobe Watson (Ess)
19) James Bartel (Geel)
20) Brendan Goddard (Saints)
21) Dean Cox (Eagles)
22) Nathan Fyfe (Frem)
23) Luke McPharlin (Frem)
24) Dale Thomas (Coll)
25) Nathan Bock (GCFC)
26) Brett Deledio (Rich)
27) Steve Johnson (Geel)
28) Matthew Scarlett (Geel)
29) Todd Goldstein (Roos)
30) Trent Cotchin (Rich)
31) Bryce Gibbs (Carl)
32) Josh Gibson (Haw)
33) Paul Chapman (Geel)
34) Ben Reid (Coll)
35) Heath Shaw (Coll)
36) Shane Mumford (Syd)
37) Andrew Swallow (Roos)
38) Jack Riewoldt (Rich)
39) David Mundy (Frem)
40) Andrew Walker (Carl)
41) Ryan Griffen (Bull)
42) Corey Enright (Geel)
43) Tom Rockliff (Bris)
44) Josh Kennedy (Eagles)
45) Drew Petrie (Roos)
46) Daniel Wells (Roos)
47) Alex Rance (Rich)
48) Jack Trengove (Melb)
49) Jack Redden (Bris)
50) Ben McEvoy (Saints)
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Interesting.
I won't comment on the other players, but purely from a Richmond perspective. You have Cotchin well below Martin and Deledio. I reckon he's been a bit better than Deledio and quite a bit better than Martin. Out of those players I'd move Cotchin up to around 25, Deledio down to about 30 and Martin down to the 40s.
 
juss said:
Interesting.
I won't comment on the other players, but purely from a Richmond perspective. You have Cotchin well below Martin and Deledio. I reckon he's been a bit better than Deledio and quite a bit better than Martin. Out of those players I'd move Cotchin up to around 25, Deledio down to about 30 and Martin down to the 40s.
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I had a think about this but I have no regrets in the order in which they were placed. Deledio has performed solidly throughout the entire season and has always locked down his man or broken his tag. Cotchin is going to be the better player, but this year, his form has been worse than Deledio. The reason why I have rated Martin over both of them is because he has the unique quality to take a game by the scruff of the neck and make it his. Which we have rarely seen from Cotchin and Deledio. In his second year, he is averaging 22 possessions and has kicked more than 30 goals.
 
I wouldn't have thought that Martin has had a better year than Cox, Fyfe or Thomas
 
robertg22 said:
I wouldn't have thought that Martin has had a better year than Cox, Fyfe or Thomas
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I wouldn't have thought Martin would be anywhere near the Top 50 to be completely honest. Only have two Richmond players in the Top 50. Deledio in the mids to late 30s and Cotchin in the 40s.
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I wouldn't have thought Martin would be anywhere near the Top 50 to be completely honest.
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He's definitely near. 22 disposals a game and 31 goals. You can make a case that is superior to many in the 50. I'd have him on the fringe or just in. Saying he shouldn't be anyone near is rubbish exaggeration. I mean look at Goodes, nearly identical stats. 20.8 disposals a game, 32 goals. Both play mid/fwd or fwd/mid. People just hold Martin to superstar standards already though, obviously.
 
Barnzy said:
He's definitely near. 22 disposals a game and 31 goals. You can make a case that is superior to many in the 50. I'd have him on the fringe or just in. Saying he shouldn't be anyone near is rubbish exaggeration. I mean look at Goodes, nearly identical stats. 20.8 disposals a game, 32 goals. Both play mid/fwd or fwd/mid. People just hold Martin to superstar standards already though, obviously.
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And they don't with Goodes?

Stats can prove things are within reason and I'd say it proves Martin is good enough to be considered for the top 50. It's watching games that makes the difference as to where to actually place him. I haven't seen enough of him but probably late 50's/early 60's as a pure guess.
 
AUSSIE GUN said:
And they don't with Goodes?

Stats can prove things are within reason and I'd say it proves Martin is good enough to be considered for the top 50. It's watching games that makes the difference as to where to actually place him. I haven't seen enough of him but probably late 50's/early 60's as a pure guess.
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I would say in the 60s. Has faded bad in the last half of the season. Sure his numbers might stack up okay with Goodes, but Goodes has willed/tried to will his side of the line so many times this season. Martin has not and has had very little influence on matches, particuarly in the back half of the season.

There's only a handful players in the comp who only need to get a bit of the ball to turn a match. Goodes is one of them. He can have limited possessions and maximum influence on a game. Rare breed.
 

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HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I would say in the 60s. Has faded bad in the last half of the season. Sure his numbers might stack up okay with Goodes, but Goodes has willed/tried to will his side of the line so many times this season. Martin has not and has had very little influence on matches, particuarly in the back half of the season.

There's only a handful players in the comp who only need to get a bit of the ball to turn a match. Goodes is one of them. He can have limited possessions and maximum influence on a game. Rare breed.
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Did you not watch Martin vs Brisbane in rd 13 where he picked up 22 possessions and kicked 5? 3 in the last quarter I may add, to help us snag the victory. He had single-handedly taken the game by the scruff of the neck and won it. Or against North melbourne in round 5 where he kicked 4.2, picked up 33 possessions? This 20 year old is unique.

Dustin Martin's First half of the season statistics:
24.1 possessions 1.5 goals 3.3 tackles 3.6 clearances
Dustin Martin's Second half of the season statistics:
20 possessions 1.5 goals 3.5 tackles 3.5 clearances

So as you see, he did not have a massive fade out in the second half of the season.
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I would say in the 60s. Has faded bad in the last half of the season. Sure his numbers might stack up okay with Goodes, but Goodes has willed/tried to will his side of the line so many times this season. Martin has not and has had very little influence on matches, particuarly in the back half of the season.

There's only a handful players in the comp who only need to get a bit of the ball to turn a match. Goodes is one of them. He can have limited possessions and maximum influence on a game. Rare breed.
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Wow that's a misinformed statement. I'l accept that not everyone would have him in the top 50 and that's fair enough, but in terms of influence on matches Martin has been huge.

You have to go all the way back to... last week v Crows. Where he kicked 2 second half goals and was instrumental in the third quarter. Also had a lazy 9 tackles for the match...

And before that you have to go all the way back to... the week before v Melbourne, where he kicked 3 goals, including one that will feature in goal of the year and the sealer late in the game. When we were up by 1 point.
 
Martin_Riewoldt said:
My opinion of top 50: As OP, I'm not too fussed about order from 30+, some may say I am a bit biased to put Rance in the mix but the people who doubt his skill have probably not watched him play.

1) Dane Swan (Coll)
2) Gary Ablett (GCFC)
3) Scott Pendlebury (Coll)
4) Chris Judd (Carl)
5) Scott Thompson (Adel)
6) Lance Franklin (Haw)
7) Matthew Boyd (Bull)
8) Aaron Sandilands (Frem)
9) Nick Dal Santo (Saints)
10) Joel Selwood (Geel)
11) Sam Mitchell (Haw)
12) Adam Goodes (Syd)
13) Travis Cloke (Coll)
14) Matthew Pavlich (Frem)
15) Marc Murphy (Carl)
16) Dustin Martin (Rich)
17) Matthew Priddis (Eagles)
18) Jobe Watson (Ess)
19) James Bartel (Geel)
20) Brendan Goddard (Saints)
21) Dean Cox (Eagles)
22) Nathan Fyfe (Frem)
23) Luke McPharlin (Frem)
24) Dale Thomas (Coll)
25) Nathan Bock (GCFC)
26) Brett Deledio (Rich)
27) Steve Johnson (Geel)
28) Matthew Scarlett (Geel)
29) Todd Goldstein (Roos)
30) Trent Cotchin (Rich)
31) Bryce Gibbs (Carl)
32) Josh Gibson (Haw)
33) Paul Chapman (Geel)
34) Ben Reid (Coll)
35) Heath Shaw (Coll)
36) Shane Mumford (Syd)
37) Andrew Swallow (Roos)
38) Jack Riewoldt (Rich)
39) David Mundy (Frem)
40) Andrew Walker (Carl)
41) Ryan Griffen (Bull)
42) Corey Enright (Geel)
43) Tom Rockliff (Bris)
44) Josh Kennedy (Eagles)
45) Drew Petrie (Roos)
46) Daniel Wells (Roos)
47) Alex Rance (Rich)
48) Jack Trengove (Melb)
49) Jack Redden (Bris)
50) Ben McEvoy (Saints)
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No offense, but that is a pretty bad list. Griffen and Wells are WAY too low.
They have both been better than the bolded players, some significantly better.
Both have slowed down towards the end, but their early and mid season form was close to top 10 in the league.

Cox is also too low, as is Thomas and Marc Murphy.
 
I would have Stanton & Ryder pretty even with Watson this year. Ryder's being massively under-valued off 4-5 shit weeks - and similar story with Stanton. Starred early & starred since Geelong.

Statistically; Ryder finishes the year top 30-40 for marks and goals, and top 20 for goal assists, and hitouts.
Simply put there are very few players who do what he does and his impact has been great for 3/4 of the year.

Not quite sure where any of them would sit; I'd probably have them all 35-60 odd.

Certainly all 3 have had better years than Rance, Shaw, Gibbs & Boyd.
 
Barnzy said:
Stanton & Ryder has been better years than Boyd? Say what.
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I don't find Boyd to be an effective footballer, that's all. I know he racks up a zillion stats.

mdc said:
Stanton isn't fit to tie their shoelaces. He isn't fit to tie Boyd's shoelaces either, but at least with Boyd they're completely different players so it's not like-for-like.
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Missed 8 games though. I rate him very highly.

I might be being a bit harsh on Gibbs.
 
Slattery_20 said:
I don't find Boyd to be an effective footballer, that's all. I know he racks up a zillion stats.
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And Stanton is? There's a reasonable quick measure you can do of effectiveness by looking at Champion Data score (which accounts for effectiveness) minus Dream Team score (which does not).

Stanton's consistently one of the worst in the league by this measure, this year clocking in at -7.4. Boyd, for comparison, is -0.7.

edit: It seems to me Stanton's following the Shane O'Bree trajectory of being maligned (rightly) by some fans, and then the rest of the club's fans take offense and begin to defend and praise them almost militantly. Both were/are mediocre footballers with far too many flaws to ever get near a top 50 list.
 
Ryder isn't even on the radar tbh. I wouldn't have Stanton in either but he seems a much more reasonable suggestion.

Watson, Heppell and Hurley are the top 3 imo but I've watched sfa of Essendon in the second half of the season.
 
AUSSIE GUN said:
Ryder isn't even on the radar tbh. I wouldn't have Stanton in either but he seems a much more reasonable suggestion.

Watson, Heppell and Hurley are the top 3 imo but I've watched sfa of Essendon in the second half of the season.
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I've watched a lot of Essendon and Ryder would be lucky to be around the hundred mark in the competition. He has been ok, but not great. Played a few really good games surrounded by a lot of average games. Had quite a few really, really poor games at the start of the year. Very meh.

Stanton has been pretty good recently, but nowhere near good enough to crack the Top 50. Probably around 75 to 90 in the comp.
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I've watched a lot of Essendon and Ryder would be lucky to be around the hundred mark in the competition. He has been ok, but not great. Played a few really good games surrounded by a lot of average games. Had quite a few really, really poor games at the start of the year. Very meh.
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Pretty off the mark, Ryder was awesome at the start of the year, in combination with Hurley up forward was a huge reason why we got off to a flyer, then his form dropped from about round 8 onwards to about round 14 compiled with the fact we copped heaps of injuries and the whole sides form dropped made it look worse, especially the Hawthorn game, has mostly had a very good year.

Heppell is by far one of the most overrated players on big footy, he is very good for a 18-19 year old but in the big scheme of things isn't close to the top 50, Zaharakis, Hocking, Hurley, Fletcher, Stanton and Crameri are much closer to the 50.
 
Forgot Hocking and Zaharakis. From what I've seen I don't have an issue with rating those two plus Watson, Hurley and Stanton ahead of Heppell. Not sold on Ryder's and Crameri's seasons but you're in a better position to rate them.
 

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