Strategy 2016 Tacs Trailer

[Vagabond0]

One thing that has occurred to me is this: what would this game plan look like with the inclusion of Patrick Ryder and Angus Monfries? Because remember, it was developed with these two in mind.

Janus not sure I understand the intent of your post. Are you saying that the game plan is built with Ryder in mind and we should keep insisting with it as it will pay off once he's back?

Also aren't the heat maps questionable given that Geelong dominated us from the 2nd quarter on and basically had the ball in their forward fifty for the majority of the game? Wouldn't it be more of the case we just couldn't dictate the play rather than us trying to play counter attack?

 

[Janus]

Janus not sure I understand the intent of your post. Are you saying that the game plan is built with Ryder in mind and we should keep insisting with it as it will pay off once he's back?

Also aren't the heat maps questionable given that Geelong dominated us from the 2nd quarter on and basically had the ball in their forward fifty for the majority of the game? Wouldn't it be more of the case we just couldn't dictate the play rather than us trying to play counter attack?

That's exactly right - we were forced into slingshot football by Geelong playing a midfield zone. Never said it was a choice.

 

[Vagabond0]

Midfield zone? Looks like old fashion building a wall and keeping it in there to me.

Personally think we're way over complicating things. Wasn't it Jack that was quoted on the lines of football players being thick and you could only give them one instruction at a time?

Also not convinced in the comparison to soccer. In soccer it's easier to hold a defence line, it's easier to pick your moments to swing between pressing v holding a line. Especially with professional fouls. Not so in Aussie rules.

For me there's a lot of small things that are contributing to our problems atm but the start of it was forgetting where we came from and what got us competing again.

We have become to confident in our own abilities, thinking a small change here or there will win us a flag, which has coincided with us not respecting our opponents enough.

Know yourself, know your enemy sort of stuff.

Do we even have a shut down player anymore?

 

[bluemoon86]

With Lobbe dropped and Gray out, will be interesting to see how our tactics change in the centre square. We'll get a look at a different dynamic at the very least.

 

[Janus]

Midfield zone? Looks like old fashion building a wall and keeping it in there to me.

Personally think we're way over complicating things. Wasn't it Jack that was quoted on the lines of football players being thick and you could only give them one instruction at a time?

Also not convinced in the comparison to soccer. In soccer it's easier to hold a defence line, it's easier to pick your moments to swing between pressing v holding a line. Especially with professional fouls. Not so in Aussie rules.

For me there's a lot of small things that are contributing to our problems atm but the start of it was forgetting where we came from and what got us competing again.

We have become to confident in our own abilities, thinking a small change here or there will win us a flag, which has coincided with us not respecting our opponents enough.

Know yourself, know your enemy sort of stuff.

Do we even have a shut down player anymore?

Who is comparing? For mine, there is no comparison - Australian rules is an infinitely easier game to create a defensive strategy for. One game stops for a free kick every time the ball travels 15m and a player catches it with two hands, with knocking the ball out of play or not being able to work through congestion resulting in a neutral possession situation (throw in/ball up). The other game requires constant circulation of the ball and the players to even create a rare scoring opportunity, with poor possession resulting in a turnover regardless of intent. There's not too many sports in the world that actually have a stat for 'stoppages' like we do in Australian rules. In soccer, they press AND hold a line at the same time, with the location of the ball determining who is doing what.

When these positions were created in the world game, they weren't created out of thin air, but as a reaction to the very problems that Australian rules football is facing right at the moment. Originally, soccer had target men up forward that the ball would be kicked long to and then they would try to score goals...but you hardly see them anymore because of the increases in athleticism. We like to think this is the best game in the world, but tactically it is still in its infancy, with things like zoning being seen as some sort of revolution. "Oooh, look at how Hawthorn possesses the ball! Aren't they great!" As if ball retention is some sort of quantum leap in tactical knowledge.

Now, if someone had already been through all the shit you had been through and had come up with ways to counter it - someone you could learn from - then why wouldn't you listen to the experiences they had and try to apply them to your own situation?

 

[Contested Marx]

You had me up until Toumpas.

Maybe Hartlett is a better candidate in that spot?

 

[Vagabond0]

Who is comparing? For mine, there is no comparison - Australian rules is an infinitely easier game to create a defensive strategy for. One game stops for a free kick every time the ball travels 15m and a player catches it with two hands, with knocking the ball out of play or not being able to work through congestion resulting in a neutral possession situation (throw in/ball up). The other game requires constant circulation of the ball and the players to even create a rare scoring opportunity, with poor possession resulting in a turnover regardless of intent. There's not too many sports in the world that actually have a stat for 'stoppages' like we do in Australian rules. In soccer, they press AND hold a line at the same time, with the location of the ball determining who is doing what.

Reads like a contradiction to me.

Personally the other game is infinitely easier to create a defensive strategy and is why you see sides like Leicester, Atletico Madrid, South Korea in 2002 etc. have a chance. Those stories don't exist in our game. You don't always need to have the best players on the field in the other game, you just need to know the strengthens and weaknesses of yourself and the opposition.

There's no one tactic in the other game, your formation can change week to week depending on the strengthens and weaknesses of yourself and the opposition. Once the game starts, it's played like Chess with moves made constantly as the game evolves e.g. when someone scores, yellow or red card, injury, etc.

We like to think this is the best game in the world, but tactically it is still in its infancy, with things like zoning being seen as some sort of revolution. "Oooh, look at how Hawthorn possesses the ball! Aren't they great!" As if ball retention is some sort of quantum leap in tactical knowledge.

Now, if someone had already been through all the shit you had been through and had come up with ways to counter it - someone you could learn from - then why wouldn't you listen to the experiences they had and try to apply them to your own situation?

When Kenny came on board he wasn't talking Hawthorn's game, it was predominately Sydney and the Bloods culture. He had to because it's all he had to work with, he's got excited by how quickly the turnaround came about and appears to me that he's taking the legs away from underneath us in an attempt to imitate a style that doesn't suit our list.

What makes AFL indefinitely harder is you can have the best tactics in the world but it's useless if you don't have the attributes within your playing list to support the way you want to play.

No point trying to force stoppages if you can't win a clearance.

No point trying to turn the ball over if you don't have players smart and strong enough to cover their opposition player while still being able to read the play and take an intercepting mark as a 3rd man in.

No point applying forward pressure when you don't have a forward line that is willing to repeatedly compete and will themselves to not lose a contest (look it up in a dictionary there's a photo of Puopolo)

No point trying to dictate a game plan when we're struggling to execute basic skills (particularly when under pressure), take a mark or even force a marking contest.

What's my point. Well basically we've got a lot going wrong at the moment, some of it out of our control but many of the issues are well listed throughout this topic and board. However I don't want us to keep rolling out week in week out taking 8, 10 & 15 goal losses in an attempt to play a game style that we think some day might win us a flag, which is what I think is happening now and is why our players are taking 2 seconds to think about what they need to do.

For me, we've over estimated where we are currently at and disrespecting our opposition. We need to get back to basics, and get back into the mindset of we're not going to lose, not a single contest. Get back some respect by holding our own and playing as a team. Back to 2013 for at least a month and then reassess where we are at.

 

[nadsee]

Voss coached it to guard space on the torrens footbridge.

Now that is funny!

 

[rogerjames]

This is great example of how easily a press can break down. My main concern with our press early on was that it was too high, which I think we have largely rectified and there have been far less Joe the Goose goals recently.

However, looking at this breakdown, which seems to be a recurring issue in our games (i.e. players misreading the play and ending up out of position in no man's land), you have to question if we have enough player's with the mental fortitude and/or ability to read the play to implement this style of game. I think we have too many players prone to lapses in concentration to implement this style and doubt that bringing in kids will fix it.

The press can be an effective strategy but you need players capable of executing it because as you note if one person fails in their role the whole thing can fall apart quickly and dramatically. I personally don't think we have the players for it and if anything it emphasises the weaknesses in our list, which is why I think we need to reassess it.

Re first para - agree they have modified the GP to limit those simple goals over the back after several weeks of unsuccessful implementation. However, my faith is shaken coz it was so obvious this high press wasn't going to work, it's a horrible GP.

The Saints game was terrible. There is no way what happened that game was acceptable then to follow up with the Crows debacle. The players didn't even turn up to play. Can't think of a Showdown where that has happened. And this one had extra significance after the previous Walsh tribute showdown where many on here believed the team fell into a sentimental trap.

IMO it was clear after the Showdown that players do not believe in the game plan. There's no other explanation for the performances. This should have been sorted out in pre-season. I think he GP has become too complicated.

Watching Port is no longer fun. I hate watching teams where players play for themselves. Weve regressed back to Cornes (by 2) and Chappy days.

 

[Janus]

Reads like a contradiction to me.

Personally the other game is infinitely easier to create a defensive strategy and is why you see sides like Leicester, Atletico Madrid, South Korea in 2002 etc. have a chance. Those stories don't exist in our game. You don't always need to have the best players on the field in the other game, you just need to know the strengthens and weaknesses of yourself and the opposition.

There's no one tactic in the other game, your formation can change week to week depending on the strengthens and weaknesses of yourself and the opposition. Once the game starts, it's played like Chess with moves made constantly as the game evolves e.g. when someone scores, yellow or red card, injury, etc.

There is a difference between a defensive strategy and actual defending. You're right that formations change depending on opponent or even due to events in the game - but we do the same on a basic level already. When Westhoff drops back into defence, what is that if not a change in formation? And while you're right that it's easier to get a result in soccer, that is due to the mechanics of the game making it easier to defend - a goalkeeper, a crossbar, smaller pitch area, offside rule etc. The actual strategy though is exactly the same. Chess played super fast is still chess.

When Kenny came on board he wasn't talking Hawthorn's game, it was predominately Sydney and the Bloods culture. He had to because it's all he had to work with, he's got excited by how quickly the turnaround came about and appears to me that he's taking the legs away from underneath us in an attempt to imitate a style that doesn't suit our list.

What makes AFL indefinitely harder is you can have the best tactics in the world but it's useless if you don't have the attributes within your playing list to support the way you want to play.

Do you really think that isn't the case in any sport in the world? Do you think that if the Chicago Bulls had 7' O'Neal as a centre instead of Bill Cartwright they would have ran their offence through Jordan all the time? And I would postulate that he is moving us from milk to solid food. It's easy to say it doesn't suit the list right now, but like a baby that cries when it is being weened, we will be bette in the long run.

No point trying to force stoppages if you can't win a clearance.

No point trying to turn the ball over if you don't have players smart and strong enough to cover their opposition player while still being able to read the play and take an intercepting mark as a 3rd man in.

No point applying forward pressure when you don't have a forward line that is willing to repeatedly compete and will themselves to not lose a contest (look it up in a dictionary there's a photo of Puopolo)

No point trying to dictate a game plan when we're struggling to execute basic skills (particularly when under pressure), take a mark or even force a marking contest.

All this doesn't sound like anything that would improve with any other gameplan other than making it a contested scrap that won't win us shit in the modern game. If we can't do these basic things, then what's the point of the players on our list? They're never going to win us a premiership...so we turn over our list and find those that can.

What's my point. Well basically we've got a lot going wrong at the moment, some of it out of our control but many of the issues are well listed throughout this topic and board. However I don't want us to keep rolling out week in week out taking 8, 10 & 15 goal losses in an attempt to play a game style that we think some day might win us a flag, which is what I think is happening now and is why our players are taking 2 seconds to think about what they need to do.

For me, we've over estimated where we are currently at and disrespecting our opposition. We need to get back to basics, and get back into the mindset of we're not going to lose, not a single contest. Get back some respect by holding our own and playing as a team. Back to 2013 for at least a month and then reassess where we are at.

You think we're miles away. I think we're much much closer than that. Teams are smashing us right now because they know that if they give us a sniff and take their foot off the gas they could still lose. But I promise you - you'll improve far better as a defensive unit if you start the way you want to finish.

 

[rogerjames]

Do we even have a shut down player anymore?

Not that I'm aware of and that's a mistake

 

[Powerade 08]

Pressing and zoning are nothing new. Our supporters need to get their head around this.

Jenkins, Ben Brown, etc. are making a decent career out of running into open goal every week. The Hawks v Adelaide game was all over the back goals.

If you win the ball, take risks and play fast you'll get those goals. If you get dominated in the middle every week and nobody runs or does anything you'll concede plenty. The press worked fine in the first qtr last week.

 

[OneGreatClub]

When Walsh left our club he took with him his cutting edge software program with which he analyzed oppo teams and he used it at the Crows. I read somewhere about it last year. My question is, I wonder if the Crows held on to Walsh's IP and are still utilizing it? Prob not but wonder where it ended up?

 

[Vagabond0]

You think we're miles away. I think we're much much closer than that. Teams are smashing us right now because they know that if they give us a sniff and take their foot off the gas they could still lose. But I promise you - you'll improve far better as a defensive unit if you start the way you want to finish.

I wouldn't say we're miles away however losing 3 out of 5 by an average of 11 goals doesn't sound like we're close either.

All I'm saying is we've got issues and we're not currently confronting them head on.

Throwing Hoff behind the ball when we're six goals down is hardly addressing our concerns. Given our current form I'd start him lose at the back, would even try to convert him to a defender like Chad. Why? because we can't stop sides from scoring at the moment and without Bobby or Trengrove we've got to try something.

Impey as a defender within our forward 50, something, anything. All I'm asking is that we don't keep serving up the same crap expecting a different result.

We've been measured and found to be lacking for many reasons but given the current challenges we're facing, start from the back first. Stop the bleeding.

 

[Contested Marx]

You think we're miles away. I think we're much much closer than that. Teams are smashing us right now because they know that if they give us a sniff and take their foot off the gas they could still lose. But I promise you - you'll improve far better as a defensive unit if you start the way you want to finish.

I've regained my faith in Kern Krinkley

 

[malph]

Do you really think that isn't the case in any sport in the world? Do you think that if the Chicago Bulls had 7' O'Neal as a centre instead of Bill Cartwright they would have ran their offence through Jordan all the time?

That is possibly the worst example you could have used to support your point.

 

[Janus]

That is possibly the worst example you could have used to support your point.

Like I give a ****.

 

[malph]

Like I give a ****.

Okay.

 

[Janus]

What this allows is the ability for a side to create turnovers in midfield and break up the play with aggressive attack into zonal coverage because the forward press now becomes a full-court press - instead of defense being just being orbital (dedicated to one player), it is now spatial as well, with many overloads being able to be created through rapid closing down of attacks from one wing or another.

Last week, we were let down by Tom Jonas not being fast enough to push over to cover an outlet kick to Tom Hawkins. This week, we are putting faster players into that role. Faster players with better endurance.

The first quarter against Geelong wasn't an outlier. You saw a glimpse of the future. Yes, there is no structure, because the structure comes from creativity and quick thinking. Rapid ball movement is the key - from defense to attack in the blink of an eye. Defend when you attack, and attack when you defend, remember?

That's what we're going for.

Quoted because I might actually, you know, know what I'm talking about.

 

[Contested Marx]

Janus, I had faith.

Was good to see theory in action.

Would love heat maps as evidence when you got time yo

 

[bluemoon86]

Did we execute our plan in defense better this week? Or did Richmond make it look better because they are terrible? Possibly a bit of both?

 

[Janus]

Today I'm going to start talking practical and not theory for a change. Let's do an analysis of the Richmond game - there was a lot to like, but there were also a lot of mistakes made.

1st Quarter

Mistake One - Brad Ebert/Paul Stewart/Cameron O'Shea/Matthew Broadbent aka "He who hesitates, masturbates."

This is actually a whole number of little mistakes, but since they are the same one (hesitation) I've lumped them all in together. Firstly, Brad Ebert could have easily faked the handball and switched back to a leading Darcy Byrne-Jones in the center of the ground had he not been so focused on going down the wing. Secondly, why did he delay the handball to Stewart so long that the only possible disposal Stewart could make to O'Shea was another handball - if he had given off a lot earlier and applied the shepherd on his man Stewart could have also cut inboard to Byrne-Jones.

But that's not the worst bit - the worst bit is Cameron O'Shea not giving to the free player down the line - who was free because his opponent had come down to cover O'Shea, and Matthew Broadbent not providing pressure on that player but instead moving to a position to receive the handball.

This play is indicative of what has been going wrong so far this season.

Mistake 2 - Justin Westhoff aka "Sometimes it's ok to kick long."

This would have been a pinpoint pass from the Hoff - if only there wasn't a defender in the way. The thing is...look at all that space around Impey. He could have put it anywhere else and Jarman would have been able to go over the top to the player in front of goal. But this was a signal of intent for the rest of the game. And it also shows what happens when you're down on confidence.

Great 1 - Lessons in Trigonometry

Remember when I was talking about triangles and how they cut off passing lanes? Notice where the defenders are standing - each player creates a triangle with two other players. This defense was great, and if Stewart had actually held on to an easy mark instead of fumbling and taking it over the boundary, it would have been counter-pressing at it's finest.

 

[Vagabond0]

Any stats on the amount of inside defensive 50 we gave up last Saturday night compared to the first 5 rounds?

Did notice we managed to consistently get numbers back in defence so we were able to spoil the contest and use the extra numbers to run it out of defence.

Plenty of upside still to be had another positive.

Hopefully more of the same this week, would like to see a lift in the skills department and another making option, (thought we relied on Young as a marking target far too often) but unlikely given the forecast.

Is it worth starting every centre bounce with a flood for the rest of the season?

 

[b0ydman]

Yeah. Um, my head hurts

 

[Jim Dixon]

Chess played super fast is still chess.

Thanks for these posts Janus. Being unable to get to games, and being at the mercy of broadcasters who spend too much time on closeups and not enough on wide-screen shots, I have no real chance to observe these tactical changes in operation.

I'm glad you are optimistic about it all 'clicking' soon. Me, I'm a bit worried that our neglect of skills coaching and player development will prevent us from getting the full benefits of these tactical innovations. But I'd be glad to be wrong!