Training 2020 Preseason

[Mighty Lions]

This year he has become probably the most premium small forward in the game I reckon. Was the only one to kick 50+ goals this year. And at his age should continue to get better, he went through a Dan McStay type period in the early to mid stages of this year missing easy set shots, without that period he would have given the Coleman a nudge.
You would ask for 2 first rounders as a minimum starting point I would think.

2 First Rounders definitely overs in my opinion. As good as his season was, an early first rounder would be fair considering what he has achieved thus far in his career.

 

[spotthedog1]

Someone wants to be at your club, just get the deal done
Pick 12 has ended up being an absolute steal.
Well done to Nobes and Co.

Problem is, we've also been the club a fair few times who have operated on "someone wants to be at your club, just get the deal done" and it hasn't worked out. Guys like Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac, where we were so set on showing ourselves to still be an attractive destination that we accepted players we shouldn't have, and overpaid.

 

[Dalions]

Problem is, we've also been the club a fair few times who have operated on "someone wants to be at your club, just get the deal done" and it hasn't worked out. Guys like Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac, where we were so set on showing ourselves to still be an attractive destination that we accepted players we shouldn't have, and overpaid.

I mean, someone of note!
Which with Charlie at the time, he had a massive amount of upside.
Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac in my mind, did not.
Thankfully we have the big boys running the club now.

 

[Nunez]

2 First Rounders definitely overs in my opinion. As good as his season was, an early first rounder would be fair considering what he has achieved thus far in his career.

Personally I think one early first and a second top 25 pick for a contracted AA is fair.

 

[Dalions]

2 First Rounders definitely overs in my opinion. As good as his season was, an early first rounder would be fair considering what he has achieved thus far in his career.

Nah!
2 mid to late first rounders is not too much to ask.
I wouldn’t imagine there would be too many clubs who would not be interested in taking Charlie off our hands.

 

[briztoon]

If we’re going to explore CC’s worth, I have a few questions.

Who are the similar players in the competition to CC?

Has CC’s defensive impact lessened as he’s transitioned to a focal scoring option?

What is the typical trade cost of an elite small forward? Can we look at past examples, i.e Eddie Betts from Carlton to Adelaide.

Where are players similar to CC, or top end U18’s small forwards, typically drafted?

How long does it take for a small forward, once drafted, to reach elite status?

 

[Judge]

But I also come from a sporting background where trading a contracted player doesn’t cost a premium.

Out of interest, what sport would that be?

 

[briztoon]

Out of interest, what sport would that be?

Sorry I meant I come from following a sport (NBA) background where trading....

Definitely haven’t played sport beyond school.

I’m just a joe average fan, and don’t pretend to be anything else.

 

[spotthedog1]

I mean, someone of note!
Which with Charlie at the time, he had a massive amount of upside.
Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac in my mind, did not.
Thankfully we have the big boys running the club now.

I disagree with you there.

I thought Charlie had risk. Yes, upside, but also downside. Had never been a focal point, focus on Eddie, poor historical accuracy, poor historical consistency. One good finals series, but otherwise had been fairly low on the team sheets.
I thought Basti had risk as well. He'd been in and out of North's team that year, and they weren't a top team. If he reverted back to top form of previous years, he'd be OK. If not, we'd lose out.
I think most thought Bell a worthy B grader.
Perhaps the best comparison for Charlie is Bundy Christensen. I thought that at time of their individual trades, Bundy had more runs on the board, and would've valued him higher than Charlie. With what we know now, that's obviously not the case, but that's what happens with risks. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't. Thankfully, Geelong were easier to deal with, and a reasonable price was worked out fairly quickly and easily.

It's a tricky one. The average punter loves the risk/reward pick, and sometimes they pay off. Stephenson comes to mind (excluding his punting shenanigans), but so does someone like Menzel or Cockatoo.

 

[Fatcat08]

Who was viciously critical of us trading for Cameron?

Genuinely want names.

Because, to me, this post is just as hyperbolic.

Well you for one. But your one i am referencing in particular, like most of the really bad posts in that thread, got deleted by me as they were way over the top and included multiple instances of people trying to spell out swear words with spacing to evade the swear filter. At one stage I had to delete two whole pages of them in a row with people going back and forward bickering like children.

So yes if I was to screenshot the posts in question i'd imagine there would be a fair few people who might be a bit embarrassed by the way they carried on.

 

[BuntonRules]

People keep on about Bastinac. IIRC, if we had not used that pick on him, it would have been lost on an academy player (Hippy). Trade wise, he was basicallly free.

 

[briztoon]

Well you for one. But your one i am referencing in particular, like most of the really bad posts in that thread, got deleted by me as they were way over the top and included multiple instances of people trying to spell out swear words with spacing to evade the swear filter. At one stage I had to delete two whole pages of them in a row with people going back and forward bickering like children.

So yes if I was to screenshot the posts in question i'd imagine there would be a fair few people who might be a bit embarrassed by the way they carried on.

Really, I was vicious towards the club or Noble, or Cameron?

I know I didn’t agree with the price at the time, but don’t recall being vicious about it.

I do know I can get carried away if I believe another member is being unfairly treated or targeted on here, but that’s about members. Not the club or players.

 

[Tassie4ever]

Don't bother to go back over the crap that was written around here when we picked up that great Tassie product, Mitch Robinson. It would be way too embarrassing.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

 

[Happy_Neale]

Easy enough to go hard at trade time, all you have to do is either

• Backpedal when the trade goes well and concede you maybe don’t know as much as the list manager or if it goes well -
• Bring it up constantly in the future like you’re some sort of oracle, quoting yourself for many offseasons to come.

It’s a win-win really, if what you are seeking is imaginary internet likes.

 

[dlanod]

Don't bother to go back over the crap that was written around here when we picked up that great Tassie product, Mitch Robinson. It would be way too embarrassing.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

OTOH go back to when we passed over him for Redden... Classic melts, Robbo was a forum favourite at the time.

 

[Gadzorks]

Bigfooty experts might think we paid overs for Charlie, but the professionals trained and experienced in such things valued him as pick 12.

Who’d have thunk they’d be right???

Next thing they’ll be making correct calls on old guys like hodge. Or midfielders like Neale.

 

[Scubaveg]

In terms of bad trades though. Luke McGuane has to be one of
the worst of all time for the club.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[ZoBlitz]

In terms of bad trades though. Luke McGuane has to be one of
the worst of all time for the club.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Wasn't a trade, picked up as a delisted free agent.

 

[charles202]

Easy enough to go hard at trade time, all you have to do is either

• Backpedal when the trade goes well and concede you maybe don’t know as much as the list manager or if it goes well -
• Bring it up constantly in the future like you’re some sort of oracle, quoting yourself for many offseasons to come.

It’s a win-win really, if what you are seeking is imaginary internet likes.

I was about to Like this but then realised it would be in an imaginary like and then I would be stuck in some perpetual loop muttering something about Pavlov and his dogs...someone please hurry up with draft night already

 

[chopperduck]

Problems come from people having over the top outbursts on things. Cameron trade is a great example. At the time, it is fine to not like, to discuss why you dont agree, but too many simply rant with no actual discussion. Old man yelling at clouds type thing. Often this is followed up with attacks on anyone who doesn't agree, despite most people just looking to discuss the logic used to arrive at that opinion.

I still find it amusing how much people overrate draft picks. Complaints at the time because pick 12 was too much for Cameron who wasn't proven, yet happy to use pick 12 on an 18yo who is even more u proven.

Club doesnt value things the same as some posters here, and to them they will never agree with the prices we pay and/or get. Perhaps the Cameron trade is a good learning lesson, despite now saying oh yeah, in hindsight im happy with what we paid, remember that next time we complete a trade that maybe, just maybe you need to wait to see how it pans out instead of flooding the forums with chicken little posting.

 

[Maroon Monsoon]

Easy enough to go hard at trade time, all you have to do is either

• Backpedal when the trade goes well and concede you maybe don’t know as much as the list manager or if it goes well -
• Bring it up constantly in the future like you’re some sort of oracle, quoting yourself for many offseasons to come.

It’s a win-win really, if what you are seeking is imaginary internet likes.

Well said. Here, have an imaginary internet like

 

[Tassie4ever]

CC always, always had the cutting edge. And there aren't many who do. Watching him cut loose in a few Sunday afternoon Crows games when he alone was the difference between them and whoever demonstrated this.

Lets hope we can provide a bit of basic physical grunt to support him this year and hereon to prevent him being monstered by the neanderthals. Same with Neale. Knuckledraggers are a dime a dozen- talent is rare.

 

[Dalions]

One of CC reasons for coming was because in a talent riddled Crows forward line he was always 5 or 6 in line and never really given the opportunity he desired.
Now, given that opportunity, he has thrived.
Nobes Nobes best!

 

[spotthedog1]

Bigfooty experts might think we paid overs for Charlie, but the professionals trained and experienced in such things valued him as pick 12.

Who’d have thunk they’d be right???

Next thing they’ll be making correct calls on old guys like hodge. Or midfielders like Neale.

Confirmation bias.

Trained professionals also valued Basti at pick 17. Valued Bell at pick 21. Valued Lisle at pick 29. I can go on. List management involves a lot of guesswork. Funnily enough, if you asked 16 other list managers at the time what Charlie Cameron was worth, you would've got about 16 different opinions. It's not like there is a correct answer.

I disagreed with the club at the time. I thought we overpaid for Charlie. In hindsight, we didn't, but I still maintain that given the unknowns at the time, we paid overs. Other experts (and non experts... cough... Terry Wallace) thought that our pick in the 30s was about right in the first few days of trade period. Then that our pick in the 20s might be a bit overs, but you could just pay it to get the deal done. Then that our pick 18 was maybe in play, and you might agree to that. Then that pick 12 was overs, but maybe if you got something back. I specifically remember both Twomey and Barrett holding opinions of our pick in the 20s being overs. I know neither are list managers, but I'd think that several other list managers likely agreed with them.

Even then, in hindsight, Charlie's delivered more than pick 12 value to the club. That's excellent, and I think everyone on this board agrees with that. But funnily enough, that still doesn't answer all of the questions. If we'd walked away, we might have got him for nothing last off-season. Then we'd have Darcy Fogarty and Charlie Cameron. At the same time, we might not have. Charlie might've re-signed with the Crows, or been pissed at us for not getting the deal done and gone elsewhere.

What if, in a freak accident, Charlie broke his leg in his first offseason with the Lions, and never regained form? Would BigFooty experts then be smarter than the club recruiters? Saying "the club got this right, so you should never disagree with them" is a bit short-sighted.

 

[Dalions]

Confirmation bias.

Trained professionals also valued Basti at pick 17. Valued Bell at pick 21. Valued Lisle at pick 29. I can go on. List management involves a lot of guesswork. Funnily enough, if you asked 16 other list managers at the time what Charlie Cameron was worth, you would've got about 16 different opinions. It's not like there is a correct answer.

I disagreed with the club at the time. I thought we overpaid for Charlie. In hindsight, we didn't, but I still maintain that given the unknowns at the time, we paid overs. Other experts (and non experts... cough... Terry Wallace) thought that our pick in the 30s was about right in the first few days of trade period. Then that our pick in the 20s might be a bit overs, but you could just pay it to get the deal done. Then that our pick 18 was maybe in play, and you might agree to that. Then that pick 12 was overs, but maybe if you got something back. I specifically remember both Twomey and Barrett holding opinions of our pick in the 20s being overs. I know neither are list managers, but I'd think that several other list managers likely agreed with them.

Even then, in hindsight, Charlie's delivered more than pick 12 value to the club. That's excellent, and I think everyone on this board agrees with that. But funnily enough, that still doesn't answer all of the questions. If we'd walked away, we might have got him for nothing last off-season. Then we'd have Darcy Fogarty and Charlie Cameron. At the same time, we might not have. Charlie might've re-signed with the Crows, or been pissed at us for not getting the deal done and gone elsewhere.

What if, in a freak accident, Charlie broke his leg in his first offseason with the Lions, and never regained form? Would BigFooty experts then be smarter than the club recruiters? Saying "the club got this right, so you should never disagree with them" is a bit short-sighted.

My impression at the time was that Adelaide really didn’t want to let him go.
There was a reason for that. And it wasn’t just because he was contracted.