Training 2020 Training - pics, reports etc

[Bluella]

I can't wait to watch Weiterbot in action this year.

 

[thylacine60]

back of the queue, bluechick.........

 

[COBALT BLUE]

Disagree, our midfield depth was good enough, and is definitely now good enough. Small forward group is still a mixed bag between Martin's inconsistent play, Betts' age and injury concerns, and Cuningham's ability to stay on the park.

Would we have gotten a reasonable trade from the GC is a better question.


There's a lot of factors involved, including inflammatory response, back strength/stability, surface of joints and their stability, not to mention learning the skills.

I'm working of very limited info with Fisher, but any improvement will make a difference on how they stand up through tackles, how flat they hit their kicks and the consistency of their acceleration off the mark.

Nice work...your Obs are pro...should be working at the club
The small forward group i agree could be a concern....with several who may not be consistent at proving A grade stats every week.
Lets take Fisher as a forward or perhaps Kennedy as well.Fisher could get the ball in the midfield all be it dangerously out sized ....can he step it up and challenge for a midfield spot ?.Kennedy also just didnt get enough of it in the middle and also has been put forward[our supply to small forwards has been dismal and its a sentence once placed there] while we have
Lang,Cunno,Betts,Gibbons,Martin,JSOS...all wanting spots

2020...will we see JSOS in the middle or maybe a determined Fish?....Cunno is excellent now and perhaps could be the pick of this shortlist

 

[Blue__Balls]

Perhaps Dow could play a creative hff/fp this season - fitness issues are covered to an extent and we get the dangerous bursts/movement through the forward half

Would rather see him racking up 30 touches in the VFL on a regular basis and then give him an extended run when the inevitable injury hits someone in the seniors (Murph, Ed, Setters, Cunners etc.) or when someone else's form warrants them having a spell. Parking Dow in a forward pocket won't help him much, getting a heap of the pill will. It's a mindset thing, the boy needs to become the big dog, because he's absolutely going to have the strength, speed and power to do so - still feel like he's playing more reactive footy than proactive.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't mind reading early (negative) feedback.

Jimmae is not a troll. He is a valuable and prolific member of this forum. He is giving his honest opinions. OK, he does go early sometimes and he has some 'dog with a bone' tendencies, but he's basing his opinions off vision (live and recorded) and using his impressive noggin in forming an independent conclusion.

Every kid not called Sam Walsh is going to have weaknesess in his game. Is it mean/unfair to point them out? I don't think so.

It's useful to know at this stage, x player is showing these strengths and weaknesses. Do I have a better understanding of Philp's game, prospect for senior selection and ultimate success as a footballer? I think so.

Pre-draft, kids are always 'the next Bont, the next Cripps, the next Dangerfield'. I think its useful to counter that with the realities of what the player is struggling with (early on). Does the player have years to work on his game, sure.

Will Jim get them all right? No. Will anyone? No. Maybe with development the early call proves to be way off the mark. That's OK, Jim (or other posters) isn't making iron clad guarantees here.

I object to the implication that I get things wrong, even if only occasionally...

 

[Gethelred]

Haven’t seen Fish rag dolled once this summer Jimwa. Core strength through the roof.

How specifically is his tackling? He has gotten shrugged off quite a bit over the past few years, is he getting them to stick and bringing players to ground/pinning the arm?

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Great gosh almighty. Sam Walsh is basically NathaN Buckley with a slightly less penetrating kick and a better ‘time with the ball’ ability.

like we killed the pig people. Who cares what happens to the others. I hope they all end up great. Sam will be a great of the game. How are we even still talking about this stuff?

Not a big fan of the Buckley comparison weirdly. His defensive running is one of the best parts of Walsh's game

 

[Macca43]

Would rather see him racking up 30 touches in the VFL on a regular basis and then give him an extended run when the inevitable injury hits someone in the seniors (Murph, Ed, Setters, Cunners etc.) or when someone else's form warrants them having a spell. Parking Dow in a forward pocket won't help him much, getting a heap of the pill will. It's a mindset thing, the boy needs to become the big dog, because he's absolutely going to have the strength, speed and power to do so - still feel like he's playing more reactive footy than proactive.

You could argue playing in the 2's is detrimental to his mindset and viewing himself as a big dog where knowing he is performing his role at AFL level is a positive.

I was pretty impressed with Dow up forward last year, he is dangerous when the ball hits the ground but also a pretty decent mid sized marking option who knew who to find space and wasn't afraid to stand his ground with the pack bearing down on him. If the rumours his kicking has improved are true and he makes more of his opportunities he would be a great forward mid.

 

[LanceRomance]

Gibbons for AA? Seems to be tracking well.

 

[ferrisb]

Would rather see him racking up 30 touches in the VFL on a regular basis and then give him an extended run when the inevitable injury hits someone in the seniors (Murph, Ed, Setters, Cunners etc.) or when someone else's form warrants them having a spell. Parking Dow in a forward pocket won't help him much, getting a heap of the pill will. It's a mindset thing, the boy needs to become the big dog, because he's absolutely going to have the strength, speed and power to do so - still feel like he's playing more reactive footy than proactive.

Dow is going to be a powerful, burst, inside mid. I hate to say it, but in the Dangerfield mould (I mean style, not output).

Of course, it's hard to be a powerful inside mid when you aren't powerful (yet).

He's still some pre-seasons away from becoming the player we want him to be. I don't mean this as a criticism, just a reality of player development. It's a waiting game. And I am patient.

 

[ferrisb]

I object to the implication that I get things wrong, even if only occasionally...

You have agreed with me in the past. Which means you have been wrong before.

 

[Blue__Balls]

You could argue playing in the 2's is detrimental to his mindset and viewing himself as a big dog where knowing he is performing his role at AFL level is a positive.

I was pretty impressed with Dow up forward last year, he is dangerous when the ball hits the ground but also a pretty decent mid sized marking option who knew who to find space and wasn't afraid to stand his ground with the pack bearing down on him. If the rumours his kicking has improved are true and he makes more of his opportunities he would be a great forward mid.

You could argue anything, Macca.

My view: better for Dow to play as much midfield time as possible. Hunt the ball, clear the contest, deliver forward, kick the odd goal - but also learn to apply some more defensive pressure and build his endurance to a point where he can "go" a handful of times every quarter, rather than blowing up after a few explosive plays.

Floating around the bottom of the pack in the forward line is a poor substitute for full time midfield minutes. He'll still learn some stuff, sure, and he'll be playing against "better opposition", but he'll be seeing a lot less of the ball, won't be utilising the same key skills after winning the ball (slam it through the sticks vs. find a leading forward), and won't be challenging himself on the endurance front.

Let's play your Best 22 game.

Simmo, Weiters, Jones
Doc, Plowman, Newman
Curnow, Setters, O'Brien
Kreuzer, Cripps, Walsh
Cuningham, Curnow, Martin
Betts, McKay, McGovern
I/C: Murphy, SPS, Fisher, Silvagni

Who do you drop to shoehorn Dow into a forward pocket, and does that improve the senior side in any meaningful way? I don't believe so. Opportunity will still come through injury/form. You could shuffle some magnets - Newman out, SPS back, Dow off the bench...? But if he's not playing midfield minutes is it better to replace Newman with Willo/Kennedy/Gibbons/Newnes/Marchy etc. for balance.

We played Dow in a forward role last year - that's fine, not disputing it. But we've added Martin and Betts this off-season, and Cuningham is looking fit and dangerous. No room in there as it stands, and Dow would be better served learning to carve up midfields in the VFL until his next opportunity presents (which, let's face it, probably won't be long anyway).

 

[Macca43]

You could argue anything, Macca.

My view: better for Dow to play as much midfield time as possible. Hunt the ball, clear the contest, deliver forward, kick the odd goal - but also learn to apply some more defensive pressure and build his endurance to a point where he can "go" a handful of times every quarter, rather than blowing up after a few explosive plays.

Floating around the bottom of the pack in the forward line is a poor substitute for full time midfield minutes. He'll still learn some stuff, sure, and he'll be playing against "better opposition", but he'll be seeing a lot less of the ball, won't be utilising the same key skills after winning the ball (slam it through the sticks vs. find a leading forward), and won't be challenging himself on the endurance front.

Let's play your Best 22 game.

Simmo, Weiters, Jones
Doc, Plowman, Newman
Curnow, Setters, O'Brien
Kreuzer, Cripps, Walsh
Cuningham, Curnow, Martin
Betts, McKay, McGovern
I/C: Murphy, SPS, Fisher, Silvagni

Who do you drop to shoehorn Dow into a forward pocket, and does that improve the senior side in any meaningful way? I don't believe so. Opportunity will still come through injury/form. You could shuffle some magnets - Newman out, SPS back, Dow off the bench...? But if he's not playing midfield minutes is it better to replace Newman with Willo/Kennedy/Gibbons/Newnes/Marchy etc. for balance.

We played Dow in a forward role last year - that's fine, not disputing it. But we've added Martin and Betts this off-season, and Cuningham is looking fit and dangerous. No room in there as it stands, and Dow would be better served learning to carve up midfields in the VFL until his next opportunity presents (which, let's face it, probably won't be long anyway).

I can't remember the coach who said if you plays 2's too long you become a 2's footballer - I would prefer to play Dow in the 1's rotating through the middle and forward with Cuningham, Fisher, Murhpy etc than playing 2's.

As for who would go from the best 22 I would have him taking either O'brien's spot with Fisher moving to a wing (first option as I would prefer a Dow who can get their own ball to an O'brien who needs someone to get it for him) or Silvagni's spot (love him but he isn't the best anywhere so is going to be challenged constantly to retain his spot) . As I said the other day the standard needed to make the best 22 has definitely risen from 2019 to 2020 and Dow is certainly in a tough fight for his spot with numerous others (I would really love to get Willo on to a wing as I thin he could be a real weapon in front of SPS, Weitering and Docherty across half back) but I just really value Dow's burst speed and ability to find space from congestion very highly as I think it can turn games and bring others into the game.

 

[ferrisb]

I would have neither Dow nor LO'B* in my best 22 right now

*Unless the pre-season reports on LO'B are accurate and he makes a major step up this year

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

I'm a bit each way on Dow in the 1's for development.
As we know, Bolts threw the kids to the wolves in the name of the long view but, with confidence players like Dow, it killed his confidence right now and impeded his progress.
You don't want him to become just another "great in the magoos" types: he's better than that.
He is clearly a confidence player though, and learning to dominate in the 2's would help with that, as long as he doesn't forget what AFL-level pressure is like.

 

[Arr0w]

If Dow struggles to play his preferred role as a ball hunting contested burst mid, I don't want him in the forward line hoping he regains touch

VFL is the perfect environment to rack up touches and confidence

 

[Macca43]

I'm a bit each way on Dow in the 1's for development.
As we know, Bolts threw the kids to the wolves in the name of the long view but, with confidence players like Dow, it killed his confidence right now and impeded his progress.
You don't want him to become just another "great in the magoos" types: he's better than that.
He is clearly a confidence player though, and learning to dominate in the 2's would help with that, as long as he doesn't forget what AFL-level pressure is like.

To me you lose moré confidence being dropped than you would gain beating up on weak opposition.

This is windows view on Dow from last weeks intra club;
"I think I’ve seen enough now to say his kicking has really cleaned up a lot. He’s using his pace to straighten up. He’s balancing before he kicks. He’s punching his kicks and keeping them low. He’s not being too ambitious with them. His other major weakness (his endurance running) has def improved but I’d still call it ‘below average’ for a mid and in the age of two way running I think is going to hold him back for another year. Today a couple of times I noted he just couldn’t work hard enough defensively. His strengths remain absolutely elite and are regularly on show. His hands (often missed) are top shelf. I almost never see him fumble any ball, even at his toes. His ability to take big steps with power in traffic is sensational. What I mean by that is he can really stretch in one stride and yet not lose power in the process. Quite unique and makes him so gifted at creating space in close. Still a WIP but a wonderful one at that."

To me great hands, great in traffic, ability to find space in close but not a great tank - sounds like the perfect attributes of a small forward to me.

 

[JustaBattler]

Wouldn't surprise me to see both Dow and Fisher not play in round one - there are better options.

 

[Blue__Balls]

To me you lose moré confidence being dropped than you would gain beating up on weak opposition.

This is windows view on Dow from last weeks intra club;
"I think I’ve seen enough now to say his kicking has really cleaned up a lot. He’s using his pace to straighten up. He’s balancing before he kicks. He’s punching his kicks and keeping them low. He’s not being too ambitious with them. His other major weakness (his endurance running) has def improved but I’d still call it ‘below average’ for a mid and in the age of two way running I think is going to hold him back for another year. Today a couple of times I noted he just couldn’t work hard enough defensively. His strengths remain absolutely elite and are regularly on show. His hands (often missed) are top shelf. I almost never see him fumble any ball, even at his toes. His ability to take big steps with power in traffic is sensational. What I mean by that is he can really stretch in one stride and yet not lose power in the process. Quite unique and makes him so gifted at creating space in close. Still a WIP but a wonderful one at that."

To me great hands, great in traffic, ability to find space in close but not a great tank - sounds like the perfect attributes of a small forward to me.

Betts, Martin, Cuningham - those three have clean hands, are great in traffic, can find space in close, and can finish.

You don't cut a quality small forward from the forward line to fit in a developing 20yo mid who hasn't built a tank yet.

You tell Dow spots are more competitive now, but the club has full faith in him being a gun midfielder sooner rather than later. You tell him the best thing for both the team's success and his development, right now, is for him to lead the midfield brigade in the VFL. Give him reponsibility and a target, and provided he works his arse off he'll get opportunities when someone else gets injured or performs poorly. Then when he gets his opportunity, you tell him it's now his spot to lose and he just needs to keep performing.

You don't leave him in the VFL for 2 years. You afford him the opportunity to play a key role in the midfield there, build form, continue to build his tank and develop his game, and then unleash him when selection warrants him playing midfield in the seniors.

 

[Lace_Out]

Wouldn't surprise me to see both Dow and Fisher not play in round one - there are better options.

Would surprise me a lot if both are fit and both do not play.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Robertio]

Gibbons for AA? Seems to be tracking well.

Stranger things have happened.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

To me you lose moré confidence being dropped than you would gain beating up on weak opposition.

This is windows view on Dow from last weeks intra club;
"I think I’ve seen enough now to say his kicking has really cleaned up a lot. He’s using his pace to straighten up. He’s balancing before he kicks. He’s punching his kicks and keeping them low. He’s not being too ambitious with them. His other major weakness (his endurance running) has def improved but I’d still call it ‘below average’ for a mid and in the age of two way running I think is going to hold him back for another year. Today a couple of times I noted he just couldn’t work hard enough defensively. His strengths remain absolutely elite and are regularly on show. His hands (often missed) are top shelf. I almost never see him fumble any ball, even at his toes. His ability to take big steps with power in traffic is sensational. What I mean by that is he can really stretch in one stride and yet not lose power in the process. Quite unique and makes him so gifted at creating space in close. Still a WIP but a wonderful one at that."

To me great hands, great in traffic, ability to find space in close but not a great tank - sounds like the perfect attributes of a small forward to me.

This preseason's Dow in last year's team a la Teague, agreed. He gets time in the middle but with the cover of the experienced mids.
This year's team looks a fair bit harder to get into than last year's.

 

[huddler]

To me you lose moré confidence being dropped than you would gain beating up on weak opposition.

This is windows view on Dow from last weeks intra club;
"I think I’ve seen enough now to say his kicking has really cleaned up a lot. He’s using his pace to straighten up. He’s balancing before he kicks. He’s punching his kicks and keeping them low. He’s not being too ambitious with them. His other major weakness (his endurance running) has def improved but I’d still call it ‘below average’ for a mid and in the age of two way running I think is going to hold him back for another year. Today a couple of times I noted he just couldn’t work hard enough defensively. His strengths remain absolutely elite and are regularly on show. His hands (often missed) are top shelf. I almost never see him fumble any ball, even at his toes. His ability to take big steps with power in traffic is sensational. What I mean by that is he can really stretch in one stride and yet not lose power in the process. Quite unique and makes him so gifted at creating space in close. Still a WIP but a wonderful one at that."

To me great hands, great in traffic, ability to find space in close but not a great tank - sounds like the perfect attributes of a small forward to me.

I don't mind this at all. He'll need to sharpen up his awareness and work on his set shots though. I still get shivers thinking about him marking inside-50 in the closing minutes against Freo, then not wanting to go for goal, inexplicably playing-on, hesitated, tackled, pinged, and they go up the other end and score. He didn't have the faith in his kicking, or the composure to size up the options available.

However, yeah, maybe half a season playing fwd and pinch-hitting in the guts for the 1's, and half in the middle for the 2's could see him develop overall. When this season ends Paddy will still only be 20. Happy to be patient. The upside is clear. I noticed a change in Jack Silvagni and Wietering last year, not just in their bodies, but in their eyes. There's a point where they change from boys eyes to mens eyes. Look for the same with Paddy Dow and hopefully Harry McKay this year.

 

[thylacine60]

I'm a bit each way on Dow in the 1's for development.
As we know, Bolts threw the kids to the wolves in the name of the long view but, with confidence players like Dow, it killed his confidence right now and impeded his progress.
You don't want him to become just another "great in the magoos" types: he's better than that.
He is clearly a confidence player though, and learning to dominate in the 2's would help with that, as long as he doesn't forget what AFL-level pressure is like.

the more I read here the more crucial it seems to get that balance right between vfl and the big time.....

 

[thylacine60]

Stranger things have happened.

no, no they haven't......