Training 2024 Preseason Training Thread

[ghostdog]

A few more random things.

I want to be clear on the black v red sides. Yes the black team is generally stronger due to the fact that nearly all the under 21 players line up on the red side but you can not read too much into it as it looks like their is a squad of around 30 or so that will be in line right now for round 1 and there has been up to 10 players swap sides at various stages of the match sim I have seen.

Another thing to consider is Hobbs has played virtually 100% red side in the last 4 weeks but he would be consistently in the best 4 midfielders across both sides. Same with Hind playing high half forward.

Menzie was very good today for the black jumpers and then the red jumpers.

I like the fact there seems to be a lot more voice in the drill's across both teams.

The skill level was generally really good but there was a few messy patches.

Ridley did some of the early drills but no match sim. Same with Draper. Shiel still building up the running.

Weideman now in full match sim.

2MP had Baldwins number a few times in the sim. Personally I would have liked to see Reid swap sides for a half to see how he matched up. I know they are working him in with McKay but it would be good to see him on Wright or Langford.

Jones played on both sides. Not a lot to say other than he played back for some time when he was on the red side.

Tsatas was on the wing for the black jumpers and then midfield on the red side.

Looks like they will use Durham in the center bounces and then let him slide out to his wing.

Cheers for the detail, ant.

How does Duz go in the CBs? Defensive side?

And how has Tsatas's kicking been?

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

Cheers for the detail, ant.

How does Duz go in the CBs? Defensive side?

And how has Tsatas's kicking been?

Duz going body on body with the best opposition mid and using his size.

Tsatas will have an issue for a while. Short low speed kicks are very good. Kicks at speed average and it is because he has a slight issue with his kicking style when he tries for distance. If you compare it to how a golf swing works it is not smooth and one motion when he goes for power. Best way to describe it is like a golfer who halts the swing at the top of the back lift for a fraction of a second before trying to launch through the ball with as much power as possible. Tsatas does the same in his kicking action. It is like he is trying to kick the footy too hard. Today was the same. Short stuff very good. A couple of the longer attempts average.

 

[ant555]

Going to say did not totally agree with the report that Stringer was carving up Cox. A few times Cox did give Stringer too much space and paid the price but there was several times where Cox either spoiled him in the marking contest or tackled him to the ground. It was pretty much 50/50 from what I saw.

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[JT_the_Man]

There is no more probables side. They mix and match over the sim. Caddy / Stringer/ Jones all played on both sides.

About 80% of the likely 1s is what I read, of course they mix and match but that side had more probables.

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

About 80% of the likely 1s is what I read, of course they mix and match but that side had more probables.

Well like I said it is not the case. There are 30 odd players in the mix and the coaches are certainly not referring to the sides as probable. There has been several blokes who have played red side exclusively that will be in front of some that have been on the black jumper side. There has been maybe 10 or so that have played all black jumper across the last 4 weeks. I have read the Blitz reports . the use of probable is not right.

 

[ant555]

.



We barely fired a shot from r18.

Belted by the Cats. Not in the game against the Dogs. Did run the Swans to within a few points. Fell across the line against Eagles and Roos (2 of the worst teams in a very long time) and then the beltings to finish the season.

It wasn't just 2 games. And we were supposed to be playing the Giants for our spot in the finals.

That's the context for the end of season.

The Port loss put a dent in the spirit and Geelong beating us up finished things off.

 

[ghostdog]

Duz going body on body with the best opposition mid and using his size.

Tsatas will have an issue for a while. Short low speed kicks are very good. Kicks at speed average and it is because he has a slight issue with his kicking style when he tries for distance. If you compare it to how a golf swing works it is not smooth and one motion when he goes for power. Best way to describe it is like a golfer who halts the swing at the top of the back lift for a fraction of a second before trying to launch through the ball with as much power as possible. Tsatas does the same in his kicking action. It is like he is trying to kick the footy too hard. Today was the same. Short stuff very good. A couple of the longer attempts average.

I'll take average to good for Tsatas in that context every day. If we're a front half team as Jacobs has described us, that might work for the Tsatas dodgy long kicks anyway as they still give us time to set up behind the ball and lock it in, so I'm okay with that. Could say the same for the McGrath dumpies, though it's not ideal. They can make it work.

Durham in the middle is a bit exciting. Did he have any wins? Was he any good?

 

[ant555]

Durham in the middle is a bit exciting. Did he have any wins? Was he any good?

Yes and yes

 

[bombreys]

They had a chance to respond to that loss against the eventual premiers gearing up for a finals campaign?

I think looking back on it we can accept that was a cooked side that wanted the season to be over. Aside from vindictive I told you so’s there’s not much to take away from that.

Collingwood is a good side and with Ridley in 3 quarters Essendon was up 30 points

Without Ridley they lost 5 quarters by close to 150 points. That’s a fact.

Ridley was a very important piece because he was the only reliable ball user off HB and they were a very different side with him because of that.

As far as natural progression goes that’s based on the list age profile. Essendon has a lot of younger players and is still on an upward curve. Other teams are older and aren’t. It’s not that complicated

Yes, they did have a chance. After a 20+ goal loss where they flat out gave up, they came out and let the Pies kick 8 goals to our nil. Across 5 quarters we were down 29 goals.

It’s not an ‘I told you so’, that’s just what happened. Saying there’s ‘not much to take away from’ it is crazy - it was a damn worrying sign for a footy club.

Again, you’re just picking things out to suit your argument. Of course we missed Ridley - but he’s one player. Collingwood didn’t have Daicos, who is probably best/top 5 in the league. Every single team his injuries.

You are saying ‘it’s not that complicated’ yet you aren’t able to understand simple facts. We are closer in age to Geelong than we are to North. As we look to progress naturally, so too do the teams around us.

 

[bombreys]

If we where 90% fit for the whole year then we would absolutely been a chance to win a couple more games. The reason we ended up where we did was 100% because we have an average list but that is the issue with an average list. You lose your best players and you can not cover the loss. Stringer won us games by himself in the back end of 2022. Draper is a better ruck than Phillips. Ridley was our best defender. Shiel was well above average at the start of the season. Wright played the back end but was showing the effect of missing half a season and not close to his 2022 form. If Peter Wright plays to even 3/4 of his 2022 level we beat Port and not lose after the siren. But like I said being an average side we can not cover that stuff.

As for not improving. Well we added a FB that will improve that spot. We added a small forward who is better than what we where playing in Snelling and Geulfi. Duursma gives us options to use Martin to massively improve one of the half back slots. They add some extra depth to the the squad. Now I am not saying they will all be super stars or win us into the top 4 but they will improve 3 areas of the ground baring injury. Goldstein is certainly a better ruck than Phillips as well.

Then we are in the same boat as other sides. We hope that Reid can get on the park and he is on song so far. Harry Jones has not missed any pre season yet. Jake Stringer has a new program that seems to be working. Nate Caddy is showing he could possibly break into the side at some stage . Tsatas is going 200% better than last year. Nick Cox is also in much better shape and is probably in the depth list right now. Durham is actually in better shape than he was last season and there is 100% a better attitude to their training and preparation. Now this is the speculation paragraph for sure. It is not 100% fact that it can or will happen but it is the same sort of stuff that sees "the sides around us " progressing as well. They are the things that need to happen but may not.

Like I said I think we are still out of the top 4 window . I think the list still needs work. We lack leadership depth and some marking power in front of the footy. There is still improvement needed in the team defense that I want to see before I believe . I think we are an 11 win side (plus or minus 1) if the list stays at 80% across the board.

The last two games do not worry me a lot. Yes they gave up against GWS which was one of the worst performances we have put up in 20 years and yes the Pies blew us away early but there where circumstances that did factor and being an average side with a lack of depth and leadership was one. Another was getting games into a few young players that where off the pace or in new positions. Then there was the coaching * up in brining back unfit players in the GWS game. If you look at the form across the whole season they did 100% improve in some areas before they crashed of the cliff. Anyone who has had any exposure to any level coaching for a period of time will know that sometimes the really bad has reasons behind it. I would be more worried if those results came at various stages during the year.

You can be as negative as you want but you have not said we are going backwards and we have as many young guys as the next club who may or may not take a step up.

A lot to look at here - I do actually agree with most.

I don’t think I’m being negative - I just don’t think we’re guaranteed to jump up the ladder. I agree with your estimate in 11-ish wins. 13 wouldn’t be a huge shock to me, nor would 9.

With the injury stuff, I just don’t think that’s a valid argument, as every team goes through it. With the Port example, does them missing Rioli even it out?

I think we are mostly in agreement - those two losses concern me more than they do you though, especially the response (or lack there of) from the coaching team.

The original post I responded to was that we had ‘too much depth’. I stand by my original response of that being nonsense.

Anyway, back onto the pre-season…

 

[ghostdog]

A lot to look at here - I do actually agree with most.

I don’t think I’m being negative - I just don’t think we’re guaranteed to jump up the ladder. I agree with your estimate in 11-ish wins. 13 wouldn’t be a huge shock to me, nor would 9.

With the injury stuff, I just don’t think that’s a valid argument, as every team goes through it. With the Port example, does them missing Rioli even it out?

I think we are mostly in agreement - those two losses concern me more than they do you though, especially the response (or lack there of) from the coaching team.

The original post I responded to was that we had ‘too much depth’. I stand by my original response of that being nonsense.

Anyway, back onto the pre-season…

Wow. Injury is always a valid argument. It's one of the most influential factors on your team's ability to execute its gameplan, especially when the depth is shallow, as it was for good parts of last season.

 

[bombreys]

Wow. Injury is always a valid argument. It's one of the most influential factors on your team's ability to execute its gameplan, especially when the depth is shallow, as it was for good parts of last season.

It absolutely isn’t “always a valid argument” - if we had twice as many injuries as other sides, then it could be valid.

Of every top 8 side in 2023, Collingwood were the only team with less injuries than us.

Injuries aren’t why we finished 11th. Being the 11th best side is why we finished 11th.

 

[jdstorm]

Yes, they did have a chance. After a 20+ goal loss where they flat out gave up, they came out and let the Pies kick 8 goals to our nil. Across 5 quarters we were down 29 goals.

It’s not an ‘I told you so’, that’s just what happened. Saying there’s ‘not much to take away from’ it is crazy - it was a damn worrying sign for a footy club.

Again, you’re just picking things out to suit your argument. Of course we missed Ridley - but he’s one player. Collingwood didn’t have Daicos, who is probably best/top 5 in the league. Every single team his injuries.

You are saying ‘it’s not that complicated’ yet you aren’t able to understand simple facts. We are closer in age to Geelong than we are to North. As we look to progress naturally, so too do the teams around us.

I think the tone of this conversation has gotten really hostile and I don’t like that.

Like you said the original conversation was about depth. Specifically if we were so deep why were we loosing by so many points at the end of last season.

My answer is that in a sense those players weren’t on the roster last season. The conversation about natural progression was referring to players like Cox, Reid, Tsatas, Daveyx2, progressing into useful AFL level players which they weren’t last year but have a reasonable expectation of being.

Add Gresham and McKay who are AFL level players who’s list spots last year were AMT/Stuart (who weren’t) and all of a sudden that’s to me 7/8* (including Caddy if he’s AFL ready this year) more AFL capable players on the list then were on it last season. (Which is about 20% of the list)

A team can have both a deep list and a flawed list or have other issues that prevent them from wining. (See GWS 2 years ago before they fired their old coach)

As far as that run at the end of the season. I’m not worried about it. Things were learned and it helped us get Nate Caddy. Some players gave up but many others didn’t and those players standing up in those conditions is a pretty big thing.

* Note me not counting Dursma and Goldy because they replaced Philips and BZT both of whom i considered AFL standard last season.

Edit: Re injuries. Value above replacement player is a thing. The list last year had some significant flaws and some clear roster holes or and some positions with no depth that allowed for opposing teams to take advantage of.

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]