Play Nice 45th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 9 - The Shi'ites Hit The Fan (Cont. in Part 10, see OP)

[iBeng]

I cant believe that most Americans dont even have employment agreements. I have people I know in America that have literally no rights when it comes to dismissal. They are employed like disposal paper towels in the bathoom.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

In Australia, since Hawke’s Wages Accord, we talk of the social wage. USA workers rely on tips - how do you measure that???

Wages have been flat since the 80’s in an attempt to keep costs down and improve business investment. In Australia the Unions, Business organisations and the Government have tried to trade off wage rises with; more jobs for our fellow workers, super, tax deductions, family payments, health care etc. Enterprise Agreements are generally considered to be a good way of achieving productivity based salary rates.

No side has got it all their own way.

1) most staff don't get tips. Even most service staff don't any more (gig economy jobs like uber have massively reduced tipping for those roles)

2) Tips are taxed, and the IRS have estimates of what they expect. It's why tipped staff are allowed to be paid less than $3 per hour in some states, because it's expected tips will get them up to the minimum of that state of between $8-10

 

[Mick F]

1) most staff don't get tips. Even most service staff don't any more (gig economy jobs like uber have massively reduced tipping for those roles)

2) Tips are taxed, and the IRS have estimates of what they expect. It's why tipped staff are allowed to be paid less than $3 per hour in some states, because it's expected tips will get them up to the minimum of that state of between $8-10

I’m surprised that they don’t pay the business owner for the privilege of working for them.

 

[Mick F]

I cant believe that most Americans dont even have employment agreements. I have people I know in America that have literally no rights when it comes to dismissal. They are employed like disposal paper towels in the bathoom.

That’s why it’s ridiculous comparing wage rates. Plus the average hours worked per job is higher here, travelling costs for an ‘on call shift’ of 2 hours will be less.

 

[FireKrakouer]

I’m surprised that they don’t pay the business owner for the privilege of working for them.

My old man's American mate told me that this does occur there. Cbf verifying if true right now, but he said at certain elite restaurants/bars the staff pay a "rent" to work there as they earn mega bucks in tips.

Another potentially BS anecdote, but a guy I know who works at Crown Casino in Melb said that he knew a guy who was serving drinks in a "high roller" room where the minimum bet was 50k. Apparently a drunk millionaire tipped said server one of his lowest ($50k) poker chips. Not bad pay for pouring whiskey.

 

[Seeds]

Hildebrand is a dead set turkey. Only repeats what he hears everyone saying and when he gets it wrong is the first to twist himself 180 degrees and boast you heard it here first - I told you so.
A waste of space.

So if he is repeating this then who said it first?

 

[Seeds]

We are talking wages not GDP.

For wages, confirmed it averaged 0.5% pa 2913-2018, and 2019 is still sitting at 0.5%

Thats still positive. It still suggests peoples income in purchasing terms is rising. A far cry from nominal wages have stagnated and inflation is lowerng purchasing power.

 

[Present Not Past]

So if he is repeating this then who said it first?

He's repeating anybody who has said that Trump will win the 2020 election.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Thats still positive. It still suggests peoples income in purchasing terms is rising. A far cry from nominal wages have stagnated and inflation is lowerng purchasing power.

0.5-1.0% isn't "growth", it's barely treading water (agree it's better than negative)

The reality is many workers have received zero pay rises since the gfc (my place has had staff not get anything for about 5 years)

 

[Maggie5]

This is the hallmark of Trump though: Booed at the UFC(And the baseball thing), so now hes going to make sure he shares every and any event he goes to where he DOESNT get booed, to show that he didnt REALLY get booed at all!

The people in Alabama cheered him and they lost. The Washington National fans booed him and won the World Series.

 

[Seeds]

0.5-1.0% isn't "growth", it's barely treading water (agree it's better than negative)

The reality is many workers have received zero pay rises since the gfc (my place has had staff not get anything for about 5 years)

It is growth. Not as much as previously but it is consistent with labour productvity growth which suggests workers are getting their fair share on average. At least relative to the past. If some workers havent been paid a raise since the gfc then it means other workers have been getting a much bigger real wage rise relative to the average.

If average real wages growth was growing slower then productivity then the average worker could feel poorly treated. The problem is productvity is too low. We need to invest more in new technologies and industries with larger potential for growth. This will drive real wages up on average. It will however lead to some creative destruction and some people will lose their jobs. But from societies perspective this is always worth it in the long run.

 

[Mick F]

Thats still positive. It still suggests peoples income in purchasing terms is rising. A far cry from nominal wages have stagnated and inflation is lowerng purchasing power.

You clearly don’t pay rates or power bills or health insurance

 

[Mick F]

It is growth. Not as much as previously but it is consistent with labour productvity growth which suggests workers are getting their fair share on average. At least relative to the past. If some workers havent been paid a raise since the gfc then it means other workers have been getting a much bigger real wage rise relative to the average.

If average real wages growth was growing slower then productivity then the average worker could feel poorly treated. The problem is productvity is too low. We need to invest more in new technologies and industries with larger potential for growth. This will drive real wages up on average. It will however lead to some creative destruction and some people will lose their jobs.

Unfortunately returns from investment in infrastructure (as with education and health) show returns past the current electoral cycle. Whereas middle class welfare and tax handouts.....

 

[Maggie5]

Trump says he might attend Russian military celebration

The president said he appreciated the invitation from Putin to attend the festivities.

www.politico.com

What a photo op for vlad if Trump shows up

 

[Seeds]

You clearly don’t pay rates or power bills or health insurance

All those things are captured in inflation consistent with the average consumers purchasing share. And wages is growing faster than inflation for the average consumer. By 0.5 percent per year for the last 6 years. Before then it was growing even faster.

 

[iBeng]

The people in Alabama cheered him and they lost. The Washington National fans booed him and won the World Series.

Careful, some conservatives will try and link this to a Jewish conspiracy.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It is growth. Not as much as previously but it is consistent with labour productvity growth which suggests workers are getting their fair share on average. At least relative to the past. If some workers havent been paid a raise since the gfc then it means other workers have been getting a much bigger real wage rise relative to the average.

If average real wages growth was growing slower then productivity then the average worker could feel poorly treated. The problem is productvity is too low. We need to invest more in new technologies and industries with larger potential for growth. This will drive real wages up on average. It will however lead to some creative destruction and some people will lose their jobs. But from societies perspective this is always worth it in the long run.

Problem is under employment, it's still an issue from the gfc

Unemployment is low, but the gigs created haven't been great quality. There is still competition for most decent roles, which is why workers aren't getting pay bumps - they don't have the leverage

Agree there are issues with productivity, but that's mostly tied to the fact most gains with current tech have been achieved (we have offloaded most non productive industries, and offshored services to the point some are returning )

This isn't a workers of the world unite speech. It's just acknowledging the reality that labour isn't in an awesome situation, and hasn't been for a decade.

 

[Seeds]

Unfortunately returns from investment in infrastructure (as with education and health) show returns past the current electoral cycle. Whereas middle class welfare and tax handouts.....

Middle class and high income earners pay all the tax and get far less access to public services then those who dont despite the fact they are the ones paying for it. Australia has the highest amount of means testing of public services in the world. Scandanavian countries have a better system. They have virtually no means testing of public services. Those who put in the tax also get back.

Also when those taxes fall its not a handout. Its just a little bit less taking from them. They still pay basically all the tax so the non workers and low income earners benefit.

 

[Seeds]

Problem is under employment, it's still an issue from the gfc

Unemployment is low, but the gigs created haven't been great quality. There is still competition for most decent roles, which is why workers aren't getting pay bumps - they don't have the leverage

Agree there are issues with productivity, but that's mostly tied to the fact most gains with current tech have been achieved (we have offloaded most non productive industries, and offshored services to the point some are returning )

This isn't a workers of the world unite speech. It's just acknowledging the reality that labour isn't in an awesome situation, and hasn't been for a decade.

Agree it isnt a great situation but its not the diabolical everythings getting worse that labour and various populist political parties around the world (such as Trumps republicans) have tried to pretend it is. Poor productivity is the main reason for the weakness. Reduced union power has also had a role although with increased union power comes other issues.

Wages is the wrong place to look in terms of rising inequality. Its asset price inflation thats the main problem. Particularly houses in australia.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Agree it isnt a great situation but its not the diabolical everythings getting worse that labour and various populist political parties around the world (such as Trumps republicans) have tried to pretend it is. Poor productivity is the main reason for the weakness. Reduced union power has also had a role although with increased union power comes other issues.

Wages is the wrong place to look in terms of rising inequality. Its asset price inflation thats the main problem. Particularly houses in australia.

It's a much bigger discussion (and one not for here), but GDP and productivity have been poorly measured under the new economy. Not saying that makes it roses, but underlines it's tough to track accurately

 

[Mick F]

Middle and high income earners pay all the tax and get far less access to public services then those who dont despite the fact they are the ones paying for it. Australia has the highest amount of means testing of public services in the world. Scandanavian countries have a better system. They have virtually no means testing of public services. Those who put in the tax also get back.

Also when those taxes fall its not a handout. Its just a little bit less taking from them. They still pay basically all the tax so the non workers and low income earners benefit.

The means test isn’t too bad for people who correctly declare their income and assets, so their capacity to contribute is fairly assessed - those that can do. Leaders and people of substance accept their responsibilities.

Economic equity has always underpinned our tax system. For example: the cost of bringing up your children was factored in through a tax rebate. People with the responsibility of housing, feeding and educating children didn’t have to contribute as much in other ways (tax liability). It was to an extent a token acknowledgement but it was nevertheless there. Partially employed widows received a bit extra on their pension.

This all changed when the people with creative accountants, who didn’t want to pay their fair share of tax for the community’s needs, had the gall to also ask for a handout (reducing your tax liability to zero effectively made your tax rebates nil and void).

Effective lobbying by the businessmen, who declared no income but got a new car every three years and children in private schools, had the child rebate removed from the tax system to become a fortnightly payment; ie. a cash handout.

This was when churning, effectively commenced. Subsequent to this the spousal rebate also become a cash handout.

So our tax bludgers are quite often also welfare bludgers, aided and assisted by accountants that received a free education in the 80s from the very tax payers they are ripping off. Hence my dislike of people who squib their responsibilities- and then insipidly declare that ‘everyone is doing it’.

See how long you’d last in the pub if when your shout come around you hid in the toilets and then laughed about being so much smarter than the others.

 

[Seeds]

It's a much bigger discussion (and one not for here), but GDP and productivity have been poorly measured under the new economy. Not saying that makes it roses, but underlines it's tough to track accurately

True services are not well measured with a belief that services improvements are much stronger then gdp growth. This is because services are now much higher quality then in the past and we cant properly measure the quality improvement in gdp like we can with manufactured goods. But this underreporting of services growth also means real wages growth is underreported and much stronger then what is actually reported (because the quality of services our wages can buy is improving more than can be measured). Another reason why the wage stagnation theory is overblown and could indeed be completely wrong. I dont beleive it is completely wrong but some advocates of services quality improvements not being captured in gdp or real wages do.

 

[blackcat]

Spoke to some friends in the states, and they are very very happy with where the economy is at.

Seems the only people disappointed in Trump's economic progress are a handful of BF posters, some scrubbers in Portland, and the Democrats/CIA/FBI.

this ^


#quote4posterity

#eaterntiger is obviously a hater, he is probably extinct like an Indonesian baboo cos of all the cane oil deforestation

@EasternTiger

 

[blackcat]

True services are not well measured with a belief that services improvements are much stronger then gdp growth. This is because services are now much higher quality then in the past and we cant properly measure the quality improvement in gdp like we can with manufactured goods. But this underreporting of services growth also means real wages growth is underreported and much stronger then what is actually reported (because the quality of services our wages can buy is improving more than can be measured). Another reason why the wage stagnation theory is overblown and could indeed be completely wrong. I dont beleive it is completely wrong but some advocates of services quality improvements not being captured in gdp or real wages do.

and a material amount of positive externalities, but we hear ad infinitum the negative externalities and environment ravaging...

Seeds Ned_Flanders

 

[blackcat]

So you ignore the rest of the post & just write childish shyte like this.

Pathetic.

well, I did update it with a new good-faith post. I think you jumped to pre-order conclusions by half