A club divided.

[PieNSauce]

His job is to win flags, not turn rockNroll stars into choirboys, our so called ''bad culture'' won a flag in 2010 and possibly had the best HaA season of all the time in 2011, yet Bucks comes in the very next year with his leading teams-completely different game plan and he's somehow trying to blame the players mindsets? come on.

If it aint broke don't fix it, and if you try and you break it don't blame anyone but yourself.

Of course that would be to totally ignore that at the time the change was made it was utterly broken and only the chance addition of a couple of key players along with a serious kick up the ass managed to turn it around albeit momentarily. Anyone who has been around for more than 5 minutes and has both eyes wide open knows that a change at the top brings the inevitable cleanout of those who fail to adapt. You're entitled to your opinion of course but no amount of distortion will ever convince me that the decision taken at the end of 2009 was incorrect, only that someone dishonestly accepted the deal and later reneged to suit his own agenda and satisfy his burgeoning ego.

 

[wmvaux]

We need the best coach money can buy, there's no room for sentiment if you want flags, end of next year we go after the best if Bucks doesn't improve IMO.

So who exactly do you think the best coach out there is and what's the chances of him going to Collingwood? Out of the current coaches Chris Scott has the best winning percentage, followed by John Longmire, Ross Lyon and then Nathan Buckley. Can't see Scott, Longmire or Lyon coming to Collingwood, so maybe we already have the best we can get. It took Malthouse 11 years at Collingwood. Hawthorn went backwards after 2008 and have turned their list over to get back up at the top, Collingwood are no different. Geelong have been an exception, but they have been able to keep a strong attacking defence that has served them well. Ours has gradually gotten weaker with less attack. Obviously an area that needs building.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

The Cats have lost Hawkins-Menzal-Mcintosh-Chapman-Varcoe-Taylor Hunt-Rivers for long periods this season, don't use injuries as an excuse.

Injuries aren't an excuse they are a reason. The cats had better kids to bring in and play. They have been the best recruiters over the past 5-10 years so I don't see how your argument has much merit. They also have a much more even list than us and have multiple options at just about every position. Our depth is good but not as good as theirs.

 

[DaVe86]

I am a strong supporter of the current regime and think Buckley is the right man to lead up into the future.

However, I'd be lying to say I am not a bit concerned. We've lost a lot of good men that were pivotal to our 2010 success.

I suppose it will all come to a head at some point. Either this current regime has success, or it will go down as one of the bigger mistakes.

That's ok though, I think the club needed to evolve at some point. This club has been stable for a long time, but you need fresh blood to keep rolling through to keep things moving forward.

In terms of the players retiring, it is not too dissimilar to when Malthouse chopped O'Bree, Licuria, Fraser, Lockyer and Medhurst. All much loved players but they were not going to lead us to a flag. I think Bucks has identified the same with Jolly, Krakouer, Didak and Johnson. Player movement is healthy.

In terms of the administration and coaching panel...well Buckley has the right to have his stamp on the football department. To succeed, Buckley needs to get things on his terms. That is going to mean shaking up the coaching panel and getting players that meet his vision and desired game-plan. We also need to excuse some rookie mistakes.

In terms of Buttifant...well I think he has done an ordinary job since late 2011. Clearly we went into the finals limp that year and did well to get as close to a flag as we did. Since then we have suffered major injuries which is not his fault...but we have also lost a real edge in fitness to clubs like Port Adelaide, Sydney and Hawthorn.

What has happened in the past is behind us now. We have to focus on the future. Buckley is the man at the helm at the moment. He is a champion of the club and bleeds black and white. No one wants success more than him. We need to back him now. We can't turn back time.

FWIW, I believe he has done a fine job to date at developing younger players. He just hasn't got the most out of the existing players yet, which in hindsight was always going to be his biggest challenge. It is also why he needs to put a stamp on the club, even if that means losing a few favourite sons.

 

[Mobbsy]

The Cats have lost Hawkins-Menzal-Mcintosh-Chapman-Varcoe-Taylor Hunt-Rivers for long periods this season, don't use injuries as an excuse.

I do recall we beat the Cats

 

[GETSOMENUTS]

when the last vestiges of MM boys are gone and Bucks boys are playing for club and coach, everyone will be singing his praises. People relax.

 

[glasseye]

I'm in the terrible mistake camp. I was the day the succession plan was announced. The idea a great player would be a great coach is extremely short sighted - They tried that with Wally Lewis up here.
I believe bucks is an aggressive domineering personality which is great for a player but is an impediment when you need to rally freelance people around you. This isn't the army as much as you might like to think it is - these players and coaches can walk and will go to better environments if they're feeling unappreciated or underutilized. Bucks job is to challenge and inspire just as much as strategize and deliver instruction.
We won't know if buckley will be a good coach for another 3 years in which time we will find out if he is drawing good people to him and allowing them to do the job. The fact we are losing good people is the writing on the wall, the fact the board is behind him as they are indicates this isn't going to go away soon.
I am a collingwood supporter, always have been and I'll be happy to be wrong but this looks like we're in for a lot of very lean years to me.

 

[jmac70]

I think the majority of members will be supportive of the cultural change being driven by Bucks. There will certainly be those that strongly disagree and their voice will get louder the longer we go without success. An extension of Buck's contract will diminish their objections for a time but if the club is seen as going backward for too long it could lead to a massive bust up. Eddie will be a key player in placating any dissent. Interesting times.

 

[Markfs]

These types of threads that supposedly want to sort out supposed divisions and discuss why they have come about ....are basically full of shit.

The board was voted in. It is there to make decisions. If you dont like it, support an alternative when that option comes along. Most of our screwups in the last 50 years have been with too many people knowing how things should be run. So we've ended up with divided boards, with 2 or 3 cheersquads, with players leaving the club disaffected and the inability of coaches to attracted the players they needed to win premierships because some people within the club had some other vision.

If you elect people to represent the club, then let them run the club. IF you dont like what they're doing then vote them out next time. In the meantime, either support them or shut the **** up. Stop the whining and other spineless behaviour. I get sick of it.

A part of the culture that the board wants to change is "side by side". You dont see much of it at the moment. We're about half a step away from that spineless rabble that call themselves Richmond.

Now having said that, you boys can go back to your whining and other discussion about the divisions that you're busily creating

 

[cleomenes]

Football clubs suffer from all the vagaries of any organization of human beings. Ours is no exception. The arrogance and sense of a right to beat certain clubs that permeated our team this year is the only cultural problem that needs addressing. You have to recognize that you have a problem before you can deal with it. I don't know if this has happened. Anything else is just the normal pettiness of any large group of people, and needn't concern us.

 

[RobbyTMagpies]

The best cure for a thread like this is simple, Go out and get some FRESH AIR.
Remember at the end of the day its just a game of Football.
People try to take decisions into their own hands yet arent even employed by Collingwood.
You either go for the Pies or you don't.
Let the department make the decisions.

 

[PieNSauce]

These types of threads that supposedly want to sort out supposed divisions and discuss why they have come about ....are basically full of shit.

The board was voted in. It is there to make decisions. If you dont like it, support an alternative when that option comes along. Most of our screwups in the last 50 years have been with too many people knowing how things should be run. So we've ended up with divided boards, with 2 or 3 cheersquads, with players leaving the club disaffected and the inability of coaches to attracted the players they needed to win premierships because some people within the club had some other vision.

If you elect people to represent the club, then let them run the club. IF you dont like what they're doing then vote them out next time. In the meantime, either support them or shut the **** up. Stop the whining and other spineless behaviour. I get sick of it.

A part of the culture that the board wants to change is "side by side". You dont see much of it at the moment. We're about half a step away from that spineless rabble that call themselves Richmond.

Now having said that, you boys can go back to your whining and other discussion about the divisions that you're busily creating

Sorry but the first part of your post confuses me because the rest of it pretty much agrees with the theme of my OP. The thread is really just about drawing attention to the damage that can be done by all the whining and carry on rather than supporting the men vested with the task of making the club competitive and successful. The theme here is precisely about either getting on board or providing a solution if you think it's broken. Whining and moaning never solved anything.

 

[RuFiO]

The best cure for a thread like this is simple, Go out and get some FRESH AIR.
Remember at the end of the day its just a game of Football.
People try to take decisions into their own hands yet arent even employed by Collingwood.
You either go for the Pies or you don't.
Let the department make the decisions.

I don't think we have a choice really to be honest.

 

[Bay Pie]

I support the club, not any individual. While they are part of the club they get my support. I supported MM during his tenure and now support Bucks during his.

I'm all for different personalities at the club but I hated continually reading about players on the nose candy, sauce or whatever other trouble they'd get inot.

Bucks demands absolute professionalism. I have no problem at all with that. It doesn't mean you ahve to live footy, just follow the club protocols at all times.

Lastly, our list and other clubs lists, styles of play etc have changed significantly in 2 years. People are in fairy land if they think otherwise. AFL in 2013 is very different to that of 2010/2011. Our best chance to win a flag since 2010 was 2011. We blew it. That's the coach, players etc. The succession plan was in place in 2009 and landed us a premiership. That's a tick for me.

Now we'll have some that say we could have won more then one flag without the succession plan. I'm more a bird in the hand guy then 2 in the bush. Definitely take the one we got, then risk it for the chance at 2.

 

[loki04]

Buckley is 3rd out of all coaches for winning %, combine that with an injury riddled dissenting list and I think he's doing well to make a PF then EF.

He does have issues with game structures, ball movement and running patterns/systems so not all is rosy.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

One inescapable fact for me is that whatever route we choose, we are going to spend several years in the wilderness, and in the meantime we will be passed by Gold Coast and GWS. I am resigned to Daisy going and believe that O'Brien must leave the club to seek success elsewhere. We are hamstrung by players who cannot kick and others who are at the end of their career or simply not good enough to be part of a premiership team.

This is a problem that will not be sorted overnight. O'Brien, Russell, Maxwell, Krakouer, Goldsack, Clarke, Blair, Lynch, Hudson, Johnson, Sinclair, Paine, Gault, Jolly and Didak all need to be moved on and replaced with younger, skilled players. If we then add to that list Thomas and Shaw, that makes in total 17 players that need to be replaced. A sizeable hole will be punched through our list while we set about improving it, and moving this group of players on will take two years. In 2 years time, Swan will be finished, as will Ball. There is no guarantee that Clinton Young will spend any more time on the park than he did in any other season except 2012.

We lack pace in the midfield and losing Thomas will only add to our deficiency. We lack class in defence, so Heath Shaw will be a big loss in this area. We will have to recruit for need over the next few seasons. Our premiership window has disappeared and looks unlikely to open again until we rectify our list problems. This is why so many supporters are angry or disappointed with our performance over the past 2 years. It has been suggested that Buckley hastened our demise by introducing a game plan that exposed our weaknesses and minimised our strengths. There also appears to be growing evidence that he has alienated older players with his personality and methods.

Given this situation, there is a lot to be said for allowing it to play itself out. Let the team play on its merits and bottom out if necessary, collecting a couple of high draft picks to inject much needed class and size into the side. Supporters will have to adjust their expectations for several years while this process occurs. Our assistant coaching panel looks fragile and uninspiring and its members should also be assessed and replaced. If we are going to have to change in order to evolve, then let's not do it halfheartedly, but rather go for broke.

There is no use any longer blaming the succession plan for what has occurred. The past is behind us and the future looks a bit daunting, but we must move forward. Do what has to be done to make us a better skilled, classier and unified side. I am not sure Buckley is the right person for the job, but he too may be able to change his approach and become a better coach than he currently appears to be. We have no choice but to stick with Buckley.

 

[magpie140873]

I am a strong supporter of the current regime and think Buckley is the right man to lead up into the future.

However, I'd be lying to say I am not a bit concerned. We've lost a lot of good men that were pivotal to our 2010 success.

I suppose it will all come to a head at some point. Either this current regime has success, or it will go down as one of the bigger mistakes.

That's ok though, I think the club needed to evolve at some point. This club has been stable for a long time, but you need fresh blood to keep rolling through to keep things moving forward.

In terms of the players retiring, it is not too dissimilar to when Malthouse chopped O'Bree, Licuria, Fraser, Lockyer and Medhurst. All much loved players but they were not going to lead us to a flag. I think Bucks has identified the same with Jolly, Krakouer, Didak and Johnson. Player movement is healthy.

In terms of the administration and coaching panel...well Buckley has the right to have his stamp on the football department. To succeed, Buckley needs to get things on his terms. That is going to mean shaking up the coaching panel and getting players that meet his vision and desired game-plan. We also need to excuse some rookie mistakes.

In terms of Buttifant...well I think he has done an ordinary job since late 2011. Clearly we went into the finals limp that year and did well to get as close to a flag as we did. Since then we have suffered major injuries which is not his fault...but we have also lost a real edge in fitness to clubs like Port Adelaide, Sydney and Hawthorn.

What has happened in the past is behind us now. We have to focus on the future. Buckley is the man at the helm at the moment. He is a champion of the club and bleeds black and white. No one wants success more than him. We need to back him now. We can't turn back time.

FWIW, I believe he has done a fine job to date at developing younger players. He just hasn't got the most out of the existing players yet, which in hindsight was always going to be his biggest challenge. It is also why he needs to put a stamp on the club, even if that means losing a few favourite sons.

Well said DaVe86, I couldn'f of put it any better myself.

 

[Markfs]

Sorry but the first part of your post confuses me because the rest of it pretty much agrees with the theme of my OP. The thread is really just about drawing attention to the damage that can be done by all the whining and carry on rather than supporting the men vested with the task of making the club competitive and successful. The theme here is precisely about either getting on board or providing a solution if you think it's broken. Whining and moaning never solved anything.

I read your post again... I cant see how a post discussing division - which basically promotes it - has anything in common with my post.

But dont worry....continue on discussing division and all the players that are upset and all the people who want mick back and all the other stuff ... we will have a hundred threads like it before the summer is through... endless discussion about all the things that the club is doing wrong....so much fun!

 

[MyManLynch]

Maybe we need a 'love in' at Victoria Park.
A weekend camp on the hallowed turf to thrash out our differences, ending with a massive group hug.
Then on Monday BigFooty releases a statement to the press...we are all on the same page....side by side.

 

[Dynamics]

Meh. It's simple for me.

Nathan Buckley is the coach of Collingwood. He has a plan in motion and clearly has different expectations to those of his predecessor. It's been pretty plain to me for a long time now that we wouldn't win a flag for a while and that we would have to endure some short-to-medium term pain for long term gain. I don't have a crystal ball so I can't pretend to know if Bucks' plan will bear premiership fruit, but I have some faith and realise that sooking about the past and calling for change NOW is nothing but destabilising and counterproductive.

Watching footy for a while now has taught me that what I want to see means nothing - I hated Mick's game style with a passion but that meant bugger all. He was our coach so it was OUR game style and we won a flag - go figure. He was right and I was grateful. Now that he's gone I can enjoy not trying to defend the ugly boundary hugging crap and the churlish, pathetic bullying and petty point scoring Mick indulges in.

If players won't buy in, they can go and this creates a real opportunity to bring in class and talent in the form of youth, without the baggage of the past. No more crashing cars, no more dodgy associations, no more questionable recreational practices. There's always an upside if you look hard enough

I'm looking forward to seeing who stays and who goes, and who we will bring in with the trades and draft picks we're clearly going to be involved with this off-season.

Such is footy.

 

[TradeDraft]

Storm in a teacup imo. The decision has been made and there's nothing that can be done about it now. Anyone constructively undermining Buckley as coach on this basis is a disgrace imo. Decisions are made, professionals accept them and get on with life.

Agree there might be a bit of UnRest but no where as much as the Media makes it out to be

 

[PieNSauce]

I read your post again... I cant see how a post discussing division - which basically promotes it - has anything in common with my post.

But dont worry....continue on discussing division and all the players that are upset and all the people who want mick back and all the other stuff ... we will have a hundred threads like it before the summer is through... endless discussion about all the things that the club is doing wrong....so much fun!

The post discusses the dangers of division. Hardly promoting it. But don't worry, continue ignoring it and hope that it goes away. Personally, I'd rather people have an opportunity to see the potential damage that it causes rather than stick my head in the sand. Deluded? Maybe but forums are about opinions and this one is no different.

 

[davywap]

His job is to win flags, not turn rockNroll stars into choirboys, our so called ''bad culture'' won a flag in 2010 and possibly had the best HaA season of all the time in 2011, yet Bucks comes in the very next year with his leading teams-completely different game plan and he's somehow trying to blame the players mindsets? come on.

If it aint broke don't fix it, and if you try and you break it don't blame anyone but yourself.

Another "if it ain't broke" knob. Malthouse is the one who broke it on his way out, and Buckley has been trying to fix that ever since.

 

[dansa]

I will always support the club over the individual.

If players want more money than offered by the club - move them on.
If they can't submit 100% to the coaching team and the game plan - move them on.
If they can't cope with the discipline and standards required of them - move them on.

Our President and board are clearly the best we have had in 50+ years and I have great confidence in their decision making process. Buckley is the best man for the job and I support giving him time to build his own team.

I can only assume many of the dissenting supporters are young enough not to realise how lucky they are to be following such a well run and successful club both on and off the field. It hasn't always been this way

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

My only agenda is making Bucks earn his extension, compared to others who want him to get an extension in the name of stability, and stability is one of the things he's had a hand in destroying IMO, this has Voss written all over it.

It's all about perspective.

Mine is well documented on this board. Too many people have had their judgement clouded by 2010. I'm far more objective than that. A lucky bounce and Milne not grabbing that ball like he grabs women don't take away from the filthy, infectious, disgraceful culture Mick allowed to the club to wallow in.

Playing favourites, developing players to are mindless robots on field that can't think on their feet and must only do what daddy tells them, players who need daddy to motivate them and "get them up". Yep, I agree, Mick hanging around a couple more years more than likely would have kept us in the Top 4 a bit longer (maybe), but you know what? The inevitable crash would have been brutal and one the club may have taken over a decade to recover from.

Under Bucks, as I said almost 2 seasons ago, there WILL be pain while he shapes this list and this club, but it will be short term and minimal. But the return to glory will be professional and long lasting.

Many of the Buckley haters, while they do have some fair points, need to have a far longer term view of the club's situation.

I beg you, don't let 2010 cloud your judgement of just how badly Mick had eroded the club beneath the shiny surface.

When your best player writes an article flat out ADMITTING that most of the list had slacked off in 2011 due to premiership hangover, you have SERIOUS issues. It took him 10 years to win a flag and they slack off straight away? You couldn't see 1990 written all over that?

Do you REALLY want 1990 again? One good year followed by a decade of nothing? Really? Because that's what we were about to enter before Bucks came in.