A study of accepting mediocrity

[Jumbo]

Rich won that award by a massive margin....and Andy Otten came second....and he goes ok too.
OK ...we'll talk about this season ...who has had their shoulder in a sling for the last 6 weeks....
62 games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 31


..................................................... SHEESH

It's not like you to celebrate injuries

 

[subaru]

It's not like you to celebrate injuries

much as you love throwing that line round...Hartlett had injury issues before you drafted him...Rich didn't , that is a simple fact. Hartlett has contributed to Port half the numbers of games in the same period as Rich.

I'm talking about dubious draft selections....and this is a classic example from Port

 

[Jumbo]

much as you love throwing that line round...Hartlett had injury issues before you drafted him...Rich didn't , that is a simple fact. Hartlett has contributed to Port half the numbers of games in the same period as Rich.

I'm talking about dubious draft selections....and this is a classic example from Port

And they both played 16 games in 2011!!
Good luck to both of them but I personally believe that Hartlett has far more upside then Rich - time will tell.

 

[subaru]

That old "upside" chestnut again.

Rich is proven good player ...you can't compare that to potential.

 

[afc9798]

Camry Crows - the only club that celebrates making the finals.

Gold Coast, the only current team never to have had an opportunity to celebrate one. GWS will kick your arse next year.

 

[Jumbo]

Gold Coast, the only current team never to have had an opportunity to celebrate one. GWS will kick your arse next year.

I hope you are not basing your thoughts on players having 'upsides'

 

[subaru]

What exactly is the "upside" I always hear about Hartlett?

Roughly the same age ...roughly the same draft pick ....and yet he has not peformed as well as Rich...so is it really "improvement" you are talking about.

What has to improve ? His kicking ...his marking ...what exactly ?

 

[Jumbo]

What exactly is the "upside" I always hear about Hartlett?

Roughly the same age ...roughly the same draft pick ....and yet he has not peformed as well as Rich...so is it really "improvement" you are talking about.

What has to improve ? His kicking ...his marking ...what exactly ?

The easiest way to answer this is with a questionD)
Do you expect the GC to perform better next year and why?
I don't need to document why Hartlett hasn't played as many games as others from the same draft and blind freddy can see the kid is all class

 

[subaru]

The easiest way to answer this is with a questionD)
Do you expect the GC to perform better next year and why?
I don't need to document why Hartlett hasn't played as many games as others from the same draft and blind freddy can see the kid is all class

What is Hartlett's "upside"? All class.... really ? He does some "pretty" things on the odd occasion, but I have yet to see him break open a game. Rich I have.
And is it only injuries that have prevented us from all seeing this "upside"?

And yes, sad for you, Gold Coast will improve..... they' re a mega young team that will get better each year ...but that's the TEAM , they are not pinning their hopes on one player.

 

[subaru]

Both of them are proven good players. Both played 16 games in 2011, and both were about as good as each other. You can keep banging on about Rich being better than Hartlett in past years if you want, but again, Danyle Pearce was better than Scott Pendlebury in the past. What matters is now.

Now, both of them are good players on about the same level as each other, and both played the same amount of games in 2011. The difference between them is Hartlett has more potential to grow than Rich. Hartlett is an athletic, strong above his head mid who still hasn't grown into his body, and Rich is a man-child with T-Rex arms.

And yet, no-one would describe this year as anything other than Rich's worst. So where does that leave young Hamish...skinny, and running across half back and after 3 years in the system, managing the same set of stats as someone who has played twice as many games and comparable with an "ordinary" year by Rich's previous standards.

I fear Hartlett will suffer the same fate as Pearce... Pearce has not improved at all.....I'd leave him out of any argument you have.

 

[dav3]

Oh wow, you know your club is in trouble when you call your mascots name in the draft

NICK Joyce will always be the first Crows mascot to have his name called at an AFL national draft.

And it's a pretty sure bet he will be the only one.

Already a member of staff at the Adelaide Football Club, the well-spoken 18-year-old has become accustomed to posing as Claude the Crow in his junior development role.

 

[subaru]

Nobody except Champion Data, who described it as an average 6.7 ranking points better than his 2010

And anyway, if 2011 was Rich's worst year, wouldn't that mean Rich hasn't improved at all and is stagnating?



Do you have any actual basis for your 'fear' that Hartlett won't improve, other than the fact that he plays for a club that you don't like?

It's funny you should mention improving, actually. Let's have a look at Hamish Hartlett's improvement compared to Daniel Rich's since their debut season.

Hamish Hartlett
2009: 61.7 average Champion Data points
2010: 76.6 average Champion Data points
2011: 92.1 average Champion Data points

Daniel Rich
2009: 85.6 average Champion Data points
2010: 78.1 average Champion Data points
2011: 84.8 average Champion Data points

I know you're not great at maths, since you think that 64 equals 56, but can you tell me which set of numbers has constantly improved and which set has stagnated?

How many games did Hamish play in 2010 ?
How many games did Hamish play in 2009 ? Rich won the Rising star in 2009 !!!!

Your stats are shit.
Which young player have you got that over the past , say , three years , has improved.....and I mean overall...not a game here or a game there.



Rich had a foot injury second half of this year plus attracts the attention of the opposition way more now . Hamish has been injured for 3.

I would still take Rich ahead of Hartlett all day every day.

My maths is fine - it;s you that don't get that 3 = 3

 

[Geoffa32]

Nobody except Champion Data, who described it as an average 6.7 ranking points better than his 2010

And anyway, if 2011 was Rich's worst year, wouldn't that mean Rich hasn't improved at all and is stagnating?



Do you have any actual basis for your 'fear' that Hartlett won't improve, other than the fact that he plays for a club that you don't like?

It's funny you should mention improving, actually. Let's have a look at Hamish Hartlett's improvement compared to Daniel Rich's since their debut season.

Hamish Hartlett
2009: 61.7 average Champion Data points
2010: 76.6 average Champion Data points
2011: 92.1 average Champion Data points

Daniel Rich
2009: 85.6 average Champion Data points
2010: 78.1 average Champion Data points
2011: 84.8 average Champion Data points

I know you're not great at maths, since you think that 64 equals 56, but can you tell me which set of numbers has constantly improved and which set has stagnated?

The stats are meaningless in this case as they play different roles.

Pretty easy to rack up stats playing loose across HB to protect a dodgy shoulder.

Rich is in the engine room at Brisbane. And toughed it out playing a key role with a crook foot.


Hamish is a good player, but like Mitchell Johnson everything has to go right for him to perform at his best. Mentally soft.

 

[subaru]

The stats are meaningless in this case as they play different roles.

Pretty easy to rack up stats playing loose across HB to protect a dodgy shoulder.

Rich is in the engine room at Brisbane. And toughed it out playing a key role with a crook foot.


Hamish is a good player, but like Mitchell Johnson everything has to go right for him to perform at his best. Mentally soft.

His inside 50's are worth twice Hamish's kicks from defence....regularly kicks 50 metre passes that travel about ten feet off the ground that all but drills a hole in the forwards chest. He is a great player to watch.

[YOUTUBE]3lvyDHTKBcA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]Kdq3aUGW2eU[/YOUTUBE]

Interesting that after that goal the commentary was that he went pick 7, do that draft again and he would have gone pick one or two after Natanui.

 

[Geoffa32]

You are an expert at missing the point.

Yes, Rich won the Rising Star in 2009. He hasn't improved since, and he probably won't. That's why I prefer Hartlett, who has already surpassed him and still has room to move.



Efa.



Hamish Hartlett. Wow, you really are bad at maths. Does 92 equal 61 too?



That's fine, but you're a terrible judge of talent. Us good judges of talent would take Hartlett over Rich, as he is not only the better player now but has also shown much more improvement.



Oh wow.

Naita, Hill, Hartlett, Hurley (if you want to troll us about the Hartlett draft pick, at least use Hurley to do it since Hurley is the only player taken after Hartlett who I'd consider swapping him for), Sidebottom, Ziebell, Vickery, Shuey, Redden, Shiels, Rockliff > Rich.

RIch would be lucky to go pick one or two out of the players that Brisbane picked (Redden and Rockliff were both much better in 2011), let alone in the whole draft.

What has Hartlett done to surpass Rich? Those highlights Subi put up of Rich are better than anything Hartlett has done.

 

[subaru]

You are an expert at missing the point.

Yes, Rich won the Rising Star in 2009. He hasn't improved since, and he probably won't. That's why I prefer Hartlett, who has already surpassed him and still has room to move.

Surpassed him ! He has not.

Hartlett's best year , according to YOUR stats..is so far off Rich's best year it's not funny.

Hamish Hartlett. Wow, you really are bad at maths. Does 92 equal 61 too?

No - does 61 = 32?

That's fine, but you're a terrible judge of talent. Us good judges of talent would take Hartlett over Rich, as he is not only the better player now but has also shown much more improvement.

And you have NO IDEA how glad I am you did !

Hartlett will plateau also...in fact I think his development will only be stifled because of the team he's in. ...Rich's best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hartlett's best

Oh wow.

Naita, Hill, Hartlett, Hurley (if you want to troll us about the Hartlett draft pick, at least use Hurley to do it since Hurley is the only player taken after Hartlett who I'd consider swapping him for), Sidebottom, Ziebell, Vickery, Shuey, Redden, Shiels, Rockliff > Rich.

You sure ended up with the dud didn't you ..... I didn't say he'd go one or two ...the commentators did.

RIch would be lucky to go pick one or two out of the players that Brisbane picked (Redden and Rockliff were both much better in 2011), let alone in the whole draft.

Well, that's your opinion. And when they start receiving attention from the opposition, they'll have to step up too. At the moment, Hartlett is being let run around in the backlines like an unregistered dog. No opposition seem to rate him at all.
Seems Brissy have a way better record of picking guns than you.

 

[subaru]

What has Hartlett done to surpass Rich? Those highlights Subi put up of Rich are better than anything Hartlett has done.

..and he does it consistently......gun player. Love a raking left footer! Wish we had one.

 

[subaru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPJWvWJuYhU#t=0m57s

That pass is just as good as anything Rich can do, and that was his debut game. There's no footage of his 55 metre goal from the boundary line against Melbourne in Darwin this year that I can find on the Internet, but if there was then that would be as good a goal as Rich has kicked too. Both are brilliant kicks, comparing them on that level is pointless.

Rich does it week in week out. In fact he's done it for 31 more games than Hartlett.

Actually, according to MY stats, Hartlett's best year was a full 7 points ahead of Rich's best year.

Which shows how bad your stats are. Racking up loose possies in the backlines...or getting the contested ball in the middle...mmm...

What the hell does 32 have to do with anything?

Typo ...S/B 62 Rich - 31 games Hartlett has played

I'm sure it's not as glad as I am that we did.

No..I think I'm gladder....

Nah. Hartlett is arguably the most talented midfielder from his draft, why would I be upset that we have him?

Then why, when he does manage to play, isn't he played in the midfeild?

This is really some horribly pointless trolling by you. It's like me trying to have a go at the Crows for having Walker on their list. All you're doing is reminding us of some of the great young talent we have on our list while at the same time exposing your insecurities for us all to laugh at.

No ....I'm pointing out that Hartlett has not lived up to the hype. Rich has.

I wouldn't consider what a couple of commentators said pre-draft to be an accurate representation of someone's ability three years later, funnily enough. Then again, plenty of commentators said the same thing about Port's pick 6 Chad Wingard, so hopefully a couple of commentators liking a player is an accurate representation of ability.

Yeah...like you need another half back flanker. You do know that's where he'll end up playing ....all your players end up on the HBF.

It is, and I value my opinion and the opinion of Port Adelaide's recruiting staff much higher than the opinion of someone who thought we should've been playing Kane Cornes in the later rounds this year

You should have been playing him in his position ..if you don't want him, get rid of him. The Kornes argument still stands...he shits on the likes of O'Shea.

But hey, that's fine...God knows your recruiters have done a fine fine job over the last few years..... assembled one of THE worst lists in the comp. But that's just MY opinion .....and probably fairly spot on ....3 wins for a year isn't exactly setting the world on fire. And I seriously cannot see where any improvement is going to come from.


Look at Sloane V Hartlett here...I'll play your little stats game ..even though I don't really rate stats.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=3110&tid2=2&pid2=3150&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S


40 picks later ...just as good.. And Sloane has spent shitloads of time in the midfield.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Nah. Hartlett is arguably the most talented midfielder from his draft, why would I be upset that we have him?

Yes you have him, and you have had him half as much as Brisbane have had Rich. Overall Brisbane have gotten sooo much more out of Rich than Poort have out of Hartlett. The only thing Poort have had more of in comparison of Rich and Hartlett is medical bills. Unless Hartlett has doubled Rich's output in his 30 odd games, Rich wins.

What good will Hartlett be if Poort make the finals and he is in the medical rooms?

Its funny, around 10 pages back apparently stats meant nothing and were a pointless comparison, and you so maturely called me childish names for using them. Now, you are using stats to try win another losing battle. Theres a word that describes people like this...

 

[subaru]

So does Hartlett.

No ...he doesn't . I have a vested interest in watching Brisbane games...

EFA. Why would we care how many games Rich played compared to Hartlett in '09 and '10? We were hardly premiership chances in those years, were they? Then again, your views on football have shown that you're incapable of looking past the short term at the big picture, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Big picture? Would that be the view from the bottom (sorry equal bottom ) of the ladder then ?

He was playing in the midfield until his shoulder flared up again, and he was then moved back to the HBF.

Yep ...and he'll play in the midfield ..and hurt himself and back he'll go.

In your opinion.

Although the hype around Rich was that he'd enter the AFL as a mature body, play like an experienced player in his first year and then plateau from there. That's what's happened so far. So I guess in that respect, he has lived up to the hype.

The hype around Hartlett was that he was going to be one of the best midfielders in the comp...... he has not lived up to that.

WTF are you on about? Wingard is a midfielder/forward.

Won't matter - you'll still play him on the HBF

We tried that, he was shit at that too. Just ask Sam Mitchell.

Yet the bad days other players had saw them getting gifted games...despite 165 and 138 ....

We tried to. Unfortunately your mob wouldn't take him. I guess they're better judges of football talent than you too.

I'm not saying Kornes is what he was...I'm saying he's better than some you have. Pay him out - AFL gave you a bucketload of cash.

Did you see O'Shea play against Melbourne at AO? His performance in that game was better than anything Kornes has produced all year, and the improvement that he's shown from the crap he was delivering at the start of the year to the excellent game he had at the end of the year is exactly why we were right to play youth with upside and a future ahead of guys like Kane.

One game ... I said over the last three years ...who has "improved"?

They've been fine over the last few years. It was the '03 to '07 drafts (except '06) that they screwed up, and the players taken in those drafts are the ones who are meant to be the senior players at the club right now, but most of them aren't good enough to be.

So let's take out 03/04/05/06/07 ... 08 we've covered ....and to be kind I'll only use your first 3 picks ....09 - Butcher - 4 games Andrew Moore - 13 games Pittard - 13 games ..2010 - Ben Jacobs 12 games Ben Newton and Aaron Young - no games


So out of two years ...the ones you reckon were good.... you have managed to get 42 games out of this "fine" group. These were your first choices ..... that you lucked out with the occasional Trengove, is irrelevant.

And that's why nobody rates your opinion

I don't care. You can have your head in the sand all you like..... you have Lobbe in ruck ..that's all I really need say in the end.

Sloane's a good player. He can't kick, but other than that he's a good player. I'm comfortable with Hartlett getting the same disposals as Sloane, because he'll use them better than Sloane could.

Sloane will get his hands on the hard ball more than Hartlett. It's the kind of ball Hartlett gets compared to Sloane which is what makes even Sloane a marginally better player. But that's just my opinion......

I have a much more fun comparison. Port's most hyped midfielder versus Adelaide's most hyped midfielder:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=3110&tid2=2&pid2=2310&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=847581

What is it with you guys and backing the wrong horse? You have quality young players like Sloane and Walker in your side, but all the hype surrounds spuds like Tippett and Dangerfield.

Tippett's first two seasons were good. Craig is gone now ... he played Tippet all over the shop. Hopefully Sanderson will rectify that. Same with Dangerfield ... one week he's running off half back, then he's one out in the goal square , then he gets thrown in the midfield... I don't even know now what his right position is anymore. But Sanderson will fix that too.

 

[Asgardian]

Ask club officials around the league, except Port or Brisbane, if they could have either Rich or Hartlett, who would they take.

 

[Elite Crow]

So your opinion is based on what club officials might think, thats conclusive

 

[afc9798]

Hamish Hartlett
2009: 61.7 average Champion Data points
2010: 76.6 average Champion Data points
2011: 92.1 average Champion Data points

Daniel Rich
2009: 85.6 average Champion Data points
2010: 78.1 average Champion Data points
2011: 84.8 average Champion Data points

I know you're not great at maths, since you think that 64 equals 56, but can you tell me which set of numbers has constantly improved and which set has stagnated?

ahhh so the stats matter when you want to use them. So shall we post Rory Sloane vs Boak and Talia vs Trengove?

After all obviously the stats are relevant now, or is it only relevant when they suit your argument?

 

[afc9798]

Ask club officials around the league, except Port or Brisbane, if they could have either Rich or Hartlett, who would they take.

Why don't you post the results of your survey then? Oh wait you don't have one to sustain your argument...thought so.

 

[Asgardian]

So your opinion is based on what club officials might think, thats conclusive

Did I say that?