A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[Johnny Bananas]

You know multiple transgender as in a feeling of being the opposite sex or true physical hermaphrodites?

I know several people who were assigned one gender at birth based on what genitalia they had but now identify with another gender and live that way. Many of them are on hormone therapy, and most those who are not intend to do so when they can afford it.

I know one person who is openly intersex (this is the term they prefer to be called rather than hermaphrodite). But chances are I probably know other people who also have both male and female bodily characteristics, whether internal or external. They either don't broadcast it (and who could blame them, given how unaccepting or disrespectful parts of society are), or perhaps even they are not aware, as can happen according to the biologist who I linked in the Twitter thread above.

Would you say the same about a left leaning advocacy groups?

Could you please explain what you mean by mean by "the same"? I just want to clear up any confusion before answering.

 

[M Malice]

If they're known for having an inbuilt bias against an entire community, that does factor into pronouncements they make against affirming the identity of a subset of that community.


You're entitled to your opinion, but not to force it upon others.


Why is it abhorrent if the child genuinely wants it? As I said above I know people who realised from a very young age they were transgender, just as most gay people I've met knew or at least suspected they were gay by the time they hit puberty, unless they were so repressed by the homophobic influences around them that they were in denial.


Do you think this is being applied on children who aren't asking for it over a long period of time or something? Who are you to tell a child their feelings are not real? They are as human as any other and their feelings do matter if they continue for long enough.

Where am I forcing my opinion on others? I am just stating it aren't I? I fully support your right to say I am wrong.

What if a child genuinely wants to drink alcohol, get a face tattoo, have sex with an adult etc? Societies in the vast majority of regions around the world ban minors from many things/activities that adults participate in because they are considered not mature enough to make a rational decision.

The feeling does not make you the opposite sex... hell yes it should be treated but as a psychological condition eg. gender dysphoria NOT with puberty blockers, surgery.

To be clear I am for surgery if true hermaphroditism. eg I do not think Lia Thomas is a hermaphrodite and Lia should not be allowed to compete in women's specific sporting competitions or access women's only services.

 

[M Malice]

Could you please explain what you mean by mean by "the same"? I just want to clear up any confusion before answering.

I do not remember or care to look up your posting history so not commenting on you specifically.

A lot seem to put anyone with a different political opinion to them in the RWNJ bucket. eg. I listen to Joe Rogan Podcasts so yes I am a RWNJ.

 

[M Malice]

And political discussions have always been this way just prior to social media there were less opportunities to do it publicly in a way where others can follow.

Anyway, I just wanted to provide some context about that group, I'll leave you all to it.

I totally agree with you on this.

At least you're keeping your transphobia to this forum this time rather than clogging up threads on the main board.

You think I am transphobic, I can live with that slur although it could not be further from the truth.

For the record I might be "typically right wing" when it comes to the whole transgender discussion, borders as an example but I am most definitely seen as "typically left wing" when it comes to guns, gay marriage, abortion. Oh and I am not religious which is typically seen as a RWNJ trait, I am in fact an Atheist when it comes to Institutionalised Religious beliefs ie. Biblical/Koranic beliefs.
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Anyway I am going to leave it there as well, I will try to use Big Footy as a pure footy forum from now on.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Where am I forcing my opinion on others? I am just stating it aren't I? I fully support your right to say I am wrong.

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word "you". I was meaning collectively those who see the transition of children as morally wrong, as if they wish for the practice to be outlawed then they are forcing their beliefs on others.

What if a child genuinely wants to drink alcohol, get a face tattoo, have sex with an adult etc?

Alcohol and child sexual behaviour with adults cause them significant objective harm. I don't believe transitioning or puberty blockers does if that's genuinely what they want and have wanted for a significant period of time. And I don't think face tattoos should be outlawed for children unless there is some major health risk I don't know of. Tattooing is not significantly objectively harmful.

Societies in the vast majority of regions around the world ban minors from many things/activities that adults participate in because they are considered not mature enough to make a rational decision.

Those are external things. Gender identity is internal. Who is anyone else to declare they know what someone else feels inside and the strength of their feelings, be they child or adult?

The feeling does not make you the opposite sex... hell yes it should be treated but as a psychological condition eg. gender dysphoria NOT with puberty blockers, surgery.

What if it wasn't a psychological condition, but simply who they felt themselves to be? Why should they be forced to go through a potentially traumatic puberty just because some adults think they can't possibly know themselves well enough? I think the lasting harm that causes them is far greater than the opposite, where they are allowed to transition and later decide they don't want to. At least they made their decision rather than being put through something they did not want to go through.

To be clear I am for surgery if true hermaphroditism. eg I do not think Lia Thomas is a hermaphrodite

Might be best not to use that word and use "intersex" instead. This is what I have been told by my intersex friend to be the term conveying respect and dignity.

and Lia should not be allowed to compete in women's specific sporting competitions

I can see why people don't necessarily want MTF transgender individuals to play women's sport at the professional level. I prefer to go by whatever the consensus of sports scientists is on the matter, and as far as I know there is no consensus yet, so I don't take a position on the matter.

or access women's only services.

This is where I think it crosses the line from a genuine concern around fairness to giving a punishment to MTF transgender individuals. What difference does it make if they access women's only services? Transgender individuals are several times more likely to be the victims of violence and sexual violence, not the perpetrators.

You know something that really made it sink into my mind that trans women are women? I've had both trans and cis women talk to me about their palpable fear of unfamiliar men. How in bars, they sit at the seat nearest the door in case they need to run away quickly from a man who feels entitled to whatever he wants from them. How they hold onto their keys in case they need to use them as a weapon. These are things I've never heard a cis man express.

A lot seem to put anyone with a different political opinion to them in the RWNJ bucket. eg. I listen to Joe Rogan Podcasts so yes I am a RWNJ.

You think I am transphobic, I can live with that slur although it could not be further from the truth.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a RWNJ or transphobic. Though I also say that with the comfort of being a cis man who doesn't face transphobia myself, so it's possible my judgement doesn't count for all that much. But I think we could at least have a discussion on the subject, which I can't do with the people I regard as transphobes, because they seem to regard transgender people as almost subhuman. I think you'd be more respectful to them than that.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I don't see democracy in strife.

There have been many hurdles since the advent of Western Democratic Governments. Despite doom and gloom everywhere it still provides the most prosperity overall for its citizens.

Trump and Biden is a sideshow of grotesque proportions. There are still millions of people queuing up to get into the US . Democracy will survive this election like it has everything else. And the dire predictions and fear of what might happen will not eventuate.

I actually think we're entering a new golden age well within the next decade or two.

This is just the start...

 

[Crimso]

This is just the start...

This is more scary than it seems and is far from a laughing matter. I don’t think anyone should be rejoicing about this.

 

[western royboy]

This is more scary than it seems and is far from a laughing matter. I don’t think anyone should be rejoicing about this.

So much for democracy - Game of Thrones looks more democratic

 

[M Malice]

I have no desire to get into too much of a back and forth on this as rarely do people change someone else's mind on strongly held views.. but in saying that here is my no doubt unpopular 2 bobs worth.

Sorry I just don't see Trump as the next Hitler/Genghis Khan/Mao ready to drone strike domestic political opponents and turn the USA into a dictatorship.

He has already had 4 years as President and the wheels of government seemed to turn as per usual, gee we have a vegetable as the POTUS now and everything still rolls along. The embedded bureaucracy(think Yes Minister) and the lettered agencies eg. DOD, CIA, NSA, DHS etc really run the show anyway.

The best indicator of future behaviour is previous behaviour, Trump no doubt is a bombastic buffoon and a raging narcissist but a mass murdering genocidal dictator ready to rip up the constitution in the making? I don't see it, Armageddon is not incoming if he wins the election.

IMO.

 

[McIvor]

I have no desire to get into too much of a back and forth on this as rarely do people change someone else's mind on strongly held views.. but in saying that here is my no doubt unpopular 2 bobs worth.

Sorry I just don't see Trump as the next Hitler/Genghis Khan/Mao ready to drone strike domestic political opponents and turn the USA into a dictatorship.

He has already had 4 years as President and the wheels of government seemed to turn as per usual, gee we have a vegetable as the POTUS now and everything still rolls along. The embedded bureaucracy(think Yes Minister) and the lettered agencies eg. DOD, CIA, NSA, DHS etc really run the show anyway.

The best indicator of future behaviour is previous behaviour, Trump no doubt is a bombastic buffoon and a raging narcissist but a mass murdering genocidal dictator ready to rip up the constitution in the making? I don't see it, Armageddon is not incoming if he wins the election.

IMO.

I don’t do politics generally but this is pretty sound reasoning

 

[M Malice]

I don’t do politics generally but this is pretty sound reasoning

Yep, I don't do politics at all really, largely 2 sides of the same coin particularly on a National and Global level, I would add to the above on who I think really runs the show > Benefactors and Mega business conglomerates eg Military Industrial Complex/Weapons manufacturers.... follow the money to see where the power really lies.

 

[McIvor]

Yep, I don't do politics at all really, largely 2 sides of the same coin particularly on a National and Global level, I would add to the above on who I think really runs the show > Benefactors and Mega business conglomerates eg Military Industrial Complex/Weapons manufacturers.... follow the money to see where the power really lies.

What has always got me about politics is the low quality of people in positions of authority. As professionals; there’s really only been a few (irrespective of their party) that to me screams leader with leadership qualities. I mean the likes of Biden, Trump, Boris Johnston, Albanese, Abbott, Morrison, Andrews, Miles Palazsu (I can never spell her name ex QLD Premier) and countless others are just really poor examples of what a leader is and it’s actually quite scary that these are the types of people that millions look to in many varying times. Staggering really and it’s probably why I’ve never taken an interest because there’s obviously reasons beyond my understanding of how such clowns even get close to holding office.

When I think of leaders (limited to western society because I have even less knowledge of global politics) that carry themselves as leaders and look half way intelligent I think of Obama, Turnbull, Jacinta Allan, Angela Merkel, Mark McGowan etc. or would be successful running a major company unlike many in the previous paragraph.

 

[M Malice]

What has always got me about politics is the low quality of people in positions of authority. As professionals; there’s really only been a few (irrespective of their party) that to me screams leader with leadership qualities. I mean the likes of Biden, Trump, Boris Johnston, Albanese, Abbott, Morrison, Andrews, Miles Palazsu (I can never spell her name ex QLD Premier) and countless others are just really poor examples of what a leader is and it’s actually quite scary that these are the types of people that millions look to in many varying times. Staggering really and it’s probably why I’ve never taken an interest because there’s obviously reasons beyond my understanding of how such clowns even get close to holding office.

When I think of leaders (limited to western society because I have even less knowledge of global politics) that carry themselves as leaders and look half way intelligent I think of Obama, Turnbull, Jacinta Allan, Angela Merkel, Mark McGowan etc. or would be successful running a major company unlike many in the previous paragraph.

I used to follow Politics very closely, gave up decades ago.

By its very nature Politics will draw in narcissistic megalomaniacal personality types and the higher up the power structure they progress the more these types dominate.

 

[western royboy]

I have no desire to get into too much of a back and forth on this as rarely do people change someone else's mind on strongly held views.. but in saying that here is my no doubt unpopular 2 bobs worth.

Sorry I just don't see Trump as the next Hitler/Genghis Khan/Mao ready to drone strike domestic political opponents and turn the USA into a dictatorship.

He has already had 4 years as President and the wheels of government seemed to turn as per usual, gee we have a vegetable as the POTUS now and everything still rolls along. The embedded bureaucracy(think Yes Minister) and the lettered agencies eg. DOD, CIA, NSA, DHS etc really run the show anyway.

The best indicator of future behaviour is previous behaviour, Trump no doubt is a bombastic buffoon and a raging narcissist but a mass murdering genocidal dictator ready to rip up the constitution in the making? I don't see it, Armageddon is not incoming if he wins the election.

IMO.

So the Jan 6 riots on the Capital and the ensuing circus were just a sideshow?

 

[M Malice]

So the Jan 6 riots on the Capital and the ensuing circus were just a sideshow?

Jan 6 was a disgrace however >

IMO there was never a chance in hell of overturning the election result, the very thought is laughable, you really think a few thousand clowns storming a building was going to lead to Trump remaining President for 4 more years.

Trump actually left office when he was supposed to, he is no longer President.

 

[western royboy]

Jan 6 was a disgrace however >

IMO there was never a chance in hell of overturning the election result, the very thought is laughable, you really think a few thousand clowns storming a building was going to lead to Trump remaining President for 4 more years.

Trump actually left office when he was supposed to, he is no longer President.

Mmm - google Beer Hall Putsch - far too many similarities - apathy and cult generally have bad outcomes

 

[SizeMatters]

I have no desire to get into too much of a back and forth on this as rarely do people change someone else's mind on strongly held views.. but in saying that here is my no doubt unpopular 2 bobs worth.

Sorry I just don't see Trump as the next Hitler/Genghis Khan/Mao ready to drone strike domestic political opponents and turn the USA into a dictatorship.

He has already had 4 years as President and the wheels of government seemed to turn as per usual, gee we have a vegetable as the POTUS now and everything still rolls along. The embedded bureaucracy(think Yes Minister) and the lettered agencies eg. DOD, CIA, NSA, DHS etc really run the show anyway.

The best indicator of future behaviour is previous behaviour, Trump no doubt is a bombastic buffoon and a raging narcissist but a mass murdering genocidal dictator ready to rip up the constitution in the making? I don't see it, Armageddon is not incoming if he wins the election.

IMO.

Think this is bigger than Trump. Sets a precedent for current and future POTUS’s and as the post dictates is a huge blow for democracy in the US and more broadly the “free world”. Yes, the corporate dollar in the background run America but the POTUS is the figurehead and the most influential individual on the planet. Though Xi is arguably toppled the POTUS depending on who and what you read.

 

[M Malice]

Think this is bigger than Trump. Sets a precedent for current and future POTUS’s and as the post dictates is a huge blow for democracy in the US and more broadly the “free world”. Yes, the corporate dollar in the background run America but the POTUS is the figurehead and the most influential individual on the planet. Though Xi is arguably toppled the POTUS depending on who and what you read.

The USA currently has a vegetable as it's figurehead, surely nobody thinks Joe is actually running the show let alone the most influential individual on the planet.

 

[martinson]

The USA currently has a vegetable as it's figurehead, surely nobody thinks Joe is actually running the show let alone the most influential individual on the planet.

In Western democracies there's a scare campaign every election since whenever about the unthinkable outcomes if whoever gets elected . Seen the same diatribe more often than I've had hot dinners.

Trump ended up being more moderate than Obama when he was Pres. but badly misjudged the public reaction to covid where over time he'll be proven right, so lost an unlosable election and had a brain fade at the end .

I think the dems will pull themselves together and realise Biden is a complete no goer but were Trump to get in we'll see the Russians did it thing on steroids and another 4 years of court cases piled upon court cases with the US muddling along as it always does.

If anyone can point out to me what difference any Pres has to any other in the management of the US socially and economically I'm all ears.

The last one to make any discernable difference was Lincoln . And even that's debatable.

The way people get riled up about these things is the reason politicians have to go the lowest common denominator and vilify their political enemies to get anywhere.

 

[western royboy]

 

[Grasshopper17]

This is exactly where we are right now.

 

[western royboy]

This is exactly where we are right now.

The show is eight years old…we’ve been here before

 

[martinson]

This is exactly where we are right now.

Sometimes you get a Kennedy or Reagan or Obama that comes along where the time is right and they just have that superior moral high ground over their opponent.

But honestly if none of those guys had been Pres. the USA would still be exactly where it is right now.

Whatever, I'm not going the turd sandwich ,whichever of them one that is.

 

[M Malice]

In Western democracies there's a scare campaign every election since whenever about the unthinkable outcomes if whoever gets elected . Seen the same diatribe more often than I've had hot dinners.

Trump ended up being more moderate than Obama when he was Pres. but badly misjudged the public reaction to covid where over time he'll be proven right, so lost an unlosable election and had a brain fade at the end .

I think the dems will pull themselves together and realise Biden is a complete no goer but were Trump to get in we'll see the Russians did it thing on steroids and another 4 years of court cases piled upon court cases with the US muddling along as it always does.

If anyone can point out to me what difference any Pres has to any other in the management of the US socially and economically I'm all ears.

The last one to make any discernable difference was Lincoln . And even that's debatable.

The way people get riled up about these things is the reason politicians have to go the lowest common denominator and vilify their political enemies to get anywhere.

The embedded power structure love to divide us serfs into warring tribes, I socialize with a myriad of people on both sides of the same political coin, we have far more in common than not.

Some can not seem to get their head around the fact that Trump has already had 4 years and it was business as per usual, he is not going to become a tyrannical dictator, the US system will not allow it even if he wanted to.

 

[Whatamark]

The embedded power structure love to divide us serfs into warring tribes, I socialize with a myriad of people on both sides of the same political coin, we have far more in common than not.

Some can not seem to get their head around the fact that Trump has already had 4 years and it was business as per usual, he is not going to become a tyrannical dictator, the US system will not allow it even if he wanted to.

IMHO if he wins it will be a bit of both. However a bit naive to think that Trump would run anything - he is equally under the thrall of his handlers who are far more odious - such as Stephen Miller. The recent developments (SCOTUS etc) would allow such to abuse the system and use Trump as their figurehead to pursue their far right Christo-Facist Project 25 dreams. Plus Putin to pursue his.