A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[Jivlain]

I inferred that he thought he could solve it ,which was more a comment on his ego and the significant political capital he had at the time.

No one's had a stronger political backdrop since , Not Reagan, Clinton ,Obama ,both Bushes ,any of them. As for anyone after that no comment.

Israel's a democratic country surrounded by despots and terrorists whose major lot in life is to kill all Jews. The last time someone wanted to do that no one helped them.

So here we are.

On the sort of peace Kissinger was looking for, a book I would recommend is Vincent Bevin's exemplary The Jakarta Method.

 

[martinson]

On the sort of peace Kissinger was looking for, a book I would recommend is Vincent Bevin's exemplary The Jakarta Method.

I've read it. It's a perspective of complex geopolitical situations that has merit and a narrative. It is a perspective however and there hasn't been an Empire in the history of the world that hasn't looked upon its own needs first and foremost. Or still do.

Kissinger's major problem with the Middle East was that there was extreme pressure to look upon the economic outcomes as a priority and that was what overrode everything he could do. So all this time later we're back behind where we started.

 

[martinson]

But Kissinger aside how many 'peace processes' have we had since then. Literally dozens.

Every US Pres and even the Russians have for the most part genuinely tried.

They're now further apart than they've ever been.

 

[briztoon]

But Kissinger aside how many 'peace processes' have we had since then. Literally dozens.

Every US Pres and even the Russians have for the most part genuinely tried.

They're now further apart than they've ever been.

That’s what happens when they don’t listen to every US Pres and keep stealing more and more land from the Palestinians.

 

[Hollow Knight]

But Kissinger aside how many 'peace processes' have we had since then. Literally dozens.

Every US Pres and even the Russians have for the most part genuinely tried.

They're now further apart than they've ever been.

Just how Bibi likes it.

 

[martinson]

Just how Bibi likes it.

It's just too complex. Hamas is embedded in Palestine. Neighbouring countries on the other side run their own terror organisations in concert.

Netanyahu is tying to buy them another 20 years before he goes. I think the endgame for Israel is likely catastrophic without significant US support. Which could potentially be tenuous if China becomes a much bigger priority.

What happens between Israel and Palestine is just one part of the puzzle.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Israel's a democratic country surrounded by despots and terrorists whose major lot in life is to kill all Jews. The last time someone wanted to do that no one helped them.

So here we are.

Is this genuinely the full context with which you examine the situation… do you really not consider any of the following things relevant?

• the impact of European colonialism in the region
• the fact the Israel project was born out of western anti-semitism and a refusal to accept Jewish migrants before and after WW2
• the world not only standing by and allowing Israel to break agreement after agreement and continuing to expand illegal settlements, but then also arming the IDF to prevent the predictable Palestinian resistance
• Netanyahu’s continual and deliberate efforts to undermine every attempt from the world to push for a two state solution
• Netanyahu achieving the previous agenda by undermining a moderate and comparatively diplomatic Palestinian Authority, and deliberately radicalising the Palestinian people, particularly Gazans, into the arms of Hamas…
• The marriage of convenience between Zionism and American Christian fundamentalism

None of this is relevant? Or did Israel just magically appear out of thin air one day, surrounded by anti-Semitic hordes who want to unilaterally kill them “just because”?

 

[martinson]

Is this genuinely the full context with which you examine the situation… do you really not consider any of the following things relevant?

• the impact of European colonialism in the region
• the fact the Israel project was born out of western anti-semitism and a refusal to accept Jewish migrants after WW2
• the world not only standing by and allowing Israel to break agreement after agreement and continuing to expand illegal settlements, but then also arming the IDF to prevent the predictable Palestinian resistance
• Netanyahu’s continual and deliberate efforts to undermine every attempt from the world to push for a two state solution
• Netanyahu achieving the previous agenda by undermining a moderate and comparatively diplomatic Palestinian Authority, and deliberately radicalising the Palestinian people into the arms of Hamas…
• The marriage of convenience between Zionism and American Christian fundamentalism

None of this is relevant? Or did Israel just magically appear out of thin air one day, surrounded by anti-Semitic hordes who want to unilaterally kill them “just because”?

Yes it is for the most part the context of which I examine the situation because that's where we are now.

Likewise the failure of the Jewish state would be a complete disaster for the West.

As far as why anyone did anything is something historians can debate and I'm sure there are competing perspectives.

If you think colonialism and all the other failures are the overriding evil in all then it's not something I'm interested in arguing about.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yes it is for the most part the context of which I examine the situation because that's where we are now.

Likewise the failure of the Jewish state would be a complete disaster for the West.

As far as why anyone did anything is something historians can debate and I'm sure there are competing perspectives.

If you think colonialism and all the other failures are the overriding evil in all then it's not something I'm interested in arguing about.

I mean… you’re the one that said “it’s incredibly complex” and then in the same breath seemed to condense “where we are” down to a “Democratic country” surrounded by people who want them dead purely because of their religion.

Then you seem to largely dismiss all the other points I raised as mere matters of “historical debate” and that none of them are worth arguing… it’s all coming across as a bit disingenuous. It gives the impression that you have a very set position and that the “complexity” you refer to is convenient shorthand for not having to justify your position.

Do you honestly think Bibi scuttling attempts for a two state solution by undermining Palestinian moderates and empowering unsympathetic extremists like Hamas is just a “matter of perspectives”? Again, feels like a shrug of the shoulder and holding up the “it’s complicated” sign again. Meanwhile, children are dying.

 

[McIvor]

Is this genuinely the full context with which you examine the situation… do you really not consider any of the following things relevant?

• the impact of European colonialism in the region
• the fact the Israel project was born out of western anti-semitism and a refusal to accept Jewish migrants before and after WW2
• the world not only standing by and allowing Israel to break agreement after agreement and continuing to expand illegal settlements, but then also arming the IDF to prevent the predictable Palestinian resistance
• Netanyahu’s continual and deliberate efforts to undermine every attempt from the world to push for a two state solution
• Netanyahu achieving the previous agenda by undermining a moderate and comparatively diplomatic Palestinian Authority, and deliberately radicalising the Palestinian people, particularly Gazans, into the arms of Hamas…
• The marriage of convenience between Zionism and American Christian fundamentalism

None of this is relevant? Or did Israel just magically appear out of thin air one day, surrounded by anti-Semitic hordes who want to unilaterally kill them “just because”?

Great points.

Best people half way around the world then protest and aggressively stop some families looking at a free Xmas exhibit then.

I’ll be sure to make a similar video as this goose and the countless others in support because all of these antics will make a difference particularly stopping the kiddies seeing a Xmas exhibit.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Great points.

Best people half way around the world then protest and aggressively stop some families looking at a free Xmas exhibit then.

Adults are talking mate.

In case you didn’t realise, I staunchly remain a non-participant in discussions about your Quixotic crusade about Myer windows. I responded to a very different and specific point you made. A point that is rapidly appearing to be a throwaway one that you aren’t capable of backing up.

 

[martinson]

I mean… you’re the one that said “it’s incredibly complex” and then in the same breath seemed to condense “where we are” down to a “Democratic country” surrounded by people who want them dead purely because of their religion.

Then you seem to largely dismiss all the other points I raised as mere matters of “historical debate” and that none of them are worth arguing… it’s all coming across as a bit disingenuous. It gives the impression that you have a very set position and that the “complexity” you refer to is convenient shorthand for not having to justify your position.

Do you honestly think Bibi scuttling attempts for a two state solution by undermining Palestinian moderates and empowering unsympathetic extremists like Hamas is just a “matter of perspectives”? Again, feels like a shrug of the shoulder and holding up the “it’s complicated” sign again. Meanwhile, children are dying.

6 million Jews were fried in the ovens and millions more displaced ,homeless or starved to death . So they were given a plot of land in their traditional homeland and from 800000 people and nothing built a beautiful, powerful independent democratic state with cosmopilitan cities ,free thought for people to conduct business and have good lives.

In your world everything they've done since is wrong so much so that Arabs ,mainly, were forced to develop terror organisations that they transport around the world and that October 7 was a mere blip in an ongoing battle in which you paint Jews as basically the culprits.

In Melbourne I'm the only gentile in my street . One of the few in my neighbourhood. I observe and interract with Jews all the time.

I could make many observations but one I will make is that Melbourne is very much an anti semitic city. My kids are anti semitic because it's all they've heard in schools , higher learning places only allow one narrative , anarchist politicians spewforth on it every day , Councils whose job it is to pick up our rubbish fly Palestinian flags and hold rallies in chambers.

Jews have a lot more first hand experience of persecution than any race in the history of the world. What we're seeing now is just an extension of what transpired through most of the 20th century and before, but given impetus in this century by the rebirth of extreme anti semitism from high minded people in other independent countries whose take is nothing if not predictable.

And that's all I have to say.

 

[Some_guy]

Jews are not a monolith. It is not anti Semitic to be anti zionist, Nor is it anti semitic to be against the actions of Israel.

Jewish people have had horrific things done against them in the past, that does not mean they don't have the capacity to do horrific things to others.

Apartheid is truly heinous, no matter who is doing it. South Africa have experienced it first hand, which is why they are one of the countries leading the case against Israel

 

[western royboy]

Yes it is for the most part the context of which I examine the situation because that's where we are now.

Likewise the failure of the Jewish state would be a complete disaster for the West.

As far as why anyone did anything is something historians can debate and I'm sure there are competing perspectives.

If you think colonialism and all the other failures are the overriding evil in all then it's not something I'm interested in

Personally I’m struggling with the pro zionist media and the air brushing of what is actually happening

 

[Hollow Knight]

In your world everything they've done since is wrong so much so that Arabs ,mainly, were forced to develop terror organisations that they transport around the world and that October 7 was a mere blip in an ongoing battle in which you paint Jews as basically the culprits.

Me pointing out context/perspectives that you seemed to intentionally discount, doesn't mean I 100 percent endorse those perspectives only.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Personally I’m struggling with the pro zionist media and the air brushing of what is actually happening

The global gaslighting of Palestinians is insidious. And we wonder why some of them see no alternative but to support an extremist group like Hamas who at least has provided them with food, healthcare and education. It could have been a much more moderate Fatah dominated Palestinian Authority playing this role, but Israel deliberately undermined it. Bibi doesn't want a moderate partner in peace, because that begins the road to a two-state solution. He much prefers a militant and unsympathetic Hamas.

Hamas is the Zionist's best friend. It's an insidious symbiotic relationship. Until we have the intellectual and moral courage to call that spade a spade, then people will just keep playing the "It's so complex!" card. And children will keep dying.

It's really not that complex. Ceasefire, ceasefire, ceasefire. Stop arming and investing in Israel until they stop the illegal settlements and start honoring the 1948 agreement.

Instead of creating a whole new generation of Hamas sympathisers by murdering innocent civilians, undermine Hamas by making them and their ideology irrelevant. How? By ending the blockade of Gaza. Allow NGOs and peacekeepers into Gaza, open the area up to investment, allow moderate Palestinian groups to start playing a role again in delivering education, healthcare, welfare. Give Gazans a taste of life beyond that of an open-air prison, then move towards new elections and make it utterly clear that re-election of a Hamas that continues to promote violent methods and refuses to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, will result in a return to blockades and international sanctions.

No more support for populist ultra-Nationalist/Zionist Israeli politicians who keep getting elected by creating the sickness so they can sell people the cure. Actively support moderate two-state advocates on both sides.

No more seats at the adults table for extremists and terrorists, regardless of whether they are rabid, murderous ultra-Zionists or rabid, murderous anti-Semites.

 

[Lion Jack]

Jewish hatred quite evident in this thread.

 

[briztoon]

Jewish hatred quite evident in this thread.

WTF!

There’s been bugger all anti Jewish sentiment here.

Just anti Palestinian genocide.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Jewish hatred quite evident in this thread.

Lol what a pathetic little low-altitude drive-by.