Administration - The AFL v NRL *Moderator Approved* - Rules in OP

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The_Wookie

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Since we are in a section more or less dedicated to the administrative side of things, it becomes relevant at the end of the season to compare the successes and shortcomings of the leagues administration with its competitors. The AFL figures mean little by themselves in isolation.

IMPORTANT NOTES: This has been approved by the boards designated Moderator, and Bigfooty Admins. IT should not be interpreted as a, AFL v NRL free for all, nor taken as permission to start numerous AFL v NRL threads. The prohibition on AFL v NRL threads remains outside of this specific thread. Trolls will be penalised with threadbans and board bans as needed. AFL Board posting rules apply at all times.

What may be posted here: Suitable discussion consists of things with a direct comparison between the two codes - crowds, ratings, articles where both codes are mentioned, and general NRL administration stuff that is relative to the AFL. Please note Bigfooty prohibits the wholesale reproduction of entire articles.

Added: April 28th, 2014

Due to a number of unproven, unsourced allegations that have lead this thread into darker discussions, we now require all information to be sourced - links and media MUST be cited to support assertions or disagreements.

TV Ratings

The rapid approach of the seasons end means we have begun seeing the articles discussing ratings performances in various media outlets.

Josh Massaud writing in the Daily Telegraph (NRL encourages Television broadcasters to think differently for 2014 after big ratings drop) says that the NRL FTA figures are down 3.8% on the Nine Network - a loss of about 900,000 viewers for the season. Massud says that the NRLs Foxtel ratings are also down 8.5% - a big drop off given the league was down by only 2.6% mid season. Massaud appears to blame a lack of success on the part of traditional high drawing teams like Brisbane, St George Illawarra, Paramatta and Wests Tigers.

The NRL 5 city rating is up 6% despite the a 9% drop in Sydney/Brisbane ratings, whilst for the AFL the 5 city rating is up 7%, despite poor performances from headline clubs in Adelaide and Perth.

Micheal Bodey writing in The Australian (AFL Supreme in TV Battle of the Codes) on September 16th tells us that Foxfootys average rating is up 8% while the channel was the number 1 subscription channel 14 weeks straight, and 18 weeks over all.

The AFLs Free to Air Reach figures dropped from 8.27 to 8.24 million, a statistic that Bodey blames on the move from the main channel to 7 mate in Perth, and borne out by the match figures for that state.

More detailed ratings discussion can be found in the TV Ratings Thread and on the Footybusiness wiki page.

Grand Final Ratings

Colin Vickery, writing for News Limited reports that the AFL has bragging rights after outrating the NRL Grand Final. The article refers only to metro ratings, but mediaweek confirms that the AFL won on the National side of the ratings equation.

It should be noted that the AFL still came out ahead when the New Zealand ratings are added for the NRL Grand Final (192,210 on Sky Sports 2)

Metro

Mediaweek ‏@MediaweekAUS 2h
Sun TV #NRLGF 2,179,000 (Syd 1.04m Mel 411k Bri 581k Ade 38k Per 100k) (Nine Sydney share 58%) @SydneyRoosters @ManlySeaEagles (2012 2.55m)

Sun TV #NRLGF updated time corrected Nine Metro 2.237m

Sat TV #AFLGF Match metro 2,717,000 (Syd 344k Mel 1.279m Bri 243k Ade 348k Per 503k) @HawthornFC @Fremantle_FC

National

Mediaweek ‏@MediaweekAUS 28 Sep
Sat TV ratings #AFLGF national (metro+reg) Seven 3,631,000 (national FTA share 80% Perth share 91%)

Mediaweek ‏@MediaweekAUS 38m
Sun TV #NRLGF updated time corrected Nine Metro 2.237m Regional 1.078m Total 3.315m

Crowds

The AFL is 4th in the world for average crowds, the NRL currently sits 19th. Of the nations top 25 games with over 50,000 attendees, the AFL has 23, the NRL has 2.

Where average AFL Crowds rose more than 2% in 2013 (after dropping 9% last year), after dropping last year, the NRL crowds down by nearly 3% (after rising by almost 1% last year) despite some hefty attendances at a few matches.

Finals crowds have been interesting to say the least, with the NRL moving to hold all finals at major stadiums this season, a bet that doesnt seem to be paying off at present as NRL media condemns the league for putting it in the odd postition of having a better selling match in Melbourne than in Sydney, despite there only being one game.

Phil Rothfield, writing in the Telegraph (NRL a laughing stock after weekend of embarassment) on September 14th noted that ANZ Stadium had 60,000 empty seats for South Sydney v Storm (out of an 88,000 seat stadium) while Canterbury v Newcastle had about 50,000 empty seats at the same venue.

Not that the AFL would be overly pleased with relatively low turnouts in Sydney (despite being the top selling final of any code in Sydney that weekend) and Melbourne last weekend, and finals attendances that have been bookended by the blockbuster Richmond-Carlton and Hawthorn-Geelong matches.

It was noted at the start of the season that the AFL attracted 2.83 million unique specators per season, where the NRL pulled in about 1.56 million.

Rebecca Wilson, writing for News Limited on September 28th said poor crowds at finals at not just one offs, and that even games featuring two Sydney teams cant draw more than 20,000 to a final.

Actual 2013 Crowd Differences
Source: stats.rleague.com

Season:
  • NRL - 192 Games - 3,060,531 total - 15,940 ave - Down 2.9%
  • AFL - 198 Games - 6,368,346 total - 32,163 ave - Up 2.1%
Finals
  • NRL - 9 games - 284,717 total - 31,635 ave - Down 14.6%
  • AFL - 9 games - 558,534 total - 62,004 ave - Up 3.3%
Finances

In May, Glenda Kwek, writing in the Sydney Morning Herald (AFL Leaves other codes in the dust) noted that the AFL was way ahead of the other codes financially. Not only does it pull in twice as much as cricket ($205 million), but three times the revenue of the NRL, four times the revenue of the A-league, and 6 times the revenue of ARU.

While the AFL Commission will expect revenue to rise to around $430 million this year, the NRL Commission anticipates a rise to $284 million.

Matthew Kidman, writing in the Sydney Morning Herald (Moneyball: How is your club placed?) on August 30th noted that the performance of NRL clubs to AFL clubs was not really desirable, witgh only two clubs capable of sustaining themselves without requiring topping up from leagues clubs and the like - the Broncos and Cowboys.

Compared to the AFL, the financial performance of the NRL clubs is underwhelming. Even the Broncos ($32 million) generate less than half the revenue of Collingwood ($75 million) despite having a city of 2 million people to themselves.
Click to expand...

Kidman says that even under the new broadcast deal the NRL grant will account for up to 45% of the total revenue of some NRL clubs. In comparison the AFL distributions account for about 33% of the income for the lower clubs of the AFL. (In 2013 the NRL grant was $7 million, where the AFL distributions to clubs averaged just over the $10 million mark)

Kidman has apparently ignored - as have many - that the NRL clubs are closely aligned with their leagues clubs, as explained by Andrew Heathcote in BRW last August (Footy means Business) which details the advantages NRL clubs have when it comes to income - their affiliated leagues clubs.

Cash grants from leagues clubs (hospitality and poker machine venues that historically have links with rugby league clubs but are separately managed) remain common in rugby league; the Bulldogs got $4 million (about one-quarter of total revenue) from its co-branded leagues club last year. When combined with the Bulldogs League Club, the Bulldogs’ revenue for 2011 jumps to $101 million from $16 million
Click to expand...

On September 17th, The Australian Financial Review posted an article stating that while the AFL was heading for a multimillion dollar loss on its finals series, the NRL was set to make a profit based on the respective popularity of their teams and the subsequent attendances. This is somewhat reinforced by Andrew Demetrious comments that the AFL was heading for a 7 figure loss due to Collingwood and Richmond being eliminated in the first week of the finals.

Club Finance Woes

Both leagues are experiencing some financial issues at club level.

Josh Massaud writing in the Telegraph states that St George Illawarra have asked the NRL for urgent financial assistance in the vicinity of $1 million, after the Leagues club contributed just $500,000. Massaud also mentions that Wests Tigers will be given $1 million for finance issues arising from the Balmain side of their merger. This is in addition to the issues faced by Cronulla, particularly if the NRL whacks them with a large fine, according to Rebecca Wilson.

The AFL is also beset with clubs requesting financial assistance, the AFL has already agreed to supply $1.45 million in emergency assistance to Melbourne, and another $1.8 million has been requested by Brisbane.

More to come when this years financial results are released.

Other

Worth noting that former AFL Commissioner Graeme Samuel was appointed to the Australian Rugby League Commission last Friday. Samuel served on the AFL Commission from its inception in 1993 until 2002.

References:
If you have anything you think Ive missed or that should be here and isnt, please let me know.
 
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A very interesting summary

A tale of two cities two games: last night some AFL fans are whingeing that 86,000 was a poor crowd for the Gee x Hawk game at the G (Im not one of them considering the high ticket prices, cold weather and live telecast) and over at LU they are saying that a crowd of 23,000 for two Sydney based teams is almost OK.(Not all are saying that)

Graeme Samuel will be a massive asset to RL as he was to the AFL commision = if they listen to a Victorian that has little interest in RL or sport in general (his passion is Opera) but is one smart cookie when it comes to the business side of things.
He will no doubt push for the rationalization of grounds just as he did at the AFL wether the NRL commission and esp the clubs will listen is another thing. I think RL has far more deep seated problems the just the grounds its played on.
 
Bizarre situation in the nRL this weekend, with prices for a heartland derby final cheaper than an expansion market final. The latter is also predicted to have the larger crowd. Doesn't make a lick of sense.
 

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The_Wookie said:
On September 17th, The Australian Financial Review posted an article stating that while the AFL was heading for a multimillion dollar loss on its finals series, the NRL was set to make a profit based on the respective popularity of their teams and the subsequent attendances. This is somewhat reinforced by Andrew Demetrious comments that the AFL was heading for a 7 figure loss due to Collingwood and Richmond being eliminated in the first week of the finals.
Click to expand...

I don't understand how the AFL can lose $1m+ on the finals series?? I assume they mean $1M+ below budget expectations but even then I find that difficult to believe. Richmond out in week 1 meant that Carlton played week 2 and really there shouldn't be that much difference between them especially as the week 2 game was in Sydney. Port beating Collingwood would have had an effect but only on the one week 2 game v Geelong. They should have also made a fair bit out of the Geel/Freo game you'd assume (unless it all went to the Cats?) so how can they lose $1m+??
 
Demonic Ascent said:
I don't understand how the AFL can lose $1m+ on the finals series?? I assume they mean $1M+ below budget expectations but even then I find that difficult to believe. Richmond out in week 1 meant that Carlton played week 2 and really there shouldn't be that much difference between them especially as the week 2 game was in Sydney. Port beating Collingwood would have had an effect but only on the one week 2 game v Geelong. They should have also made a fair bit out of the Geel/Freo game you'd assume (unless it all went to the Cats?) so how can they lose $1m+??
Click to expand...

The 1 Million loss is on "projected takings" when they can never be 100% relied on to happen

What about the 6 million bonus the AFL got for the drawn GF replay?
 
The club finances comparison is apple and oranges really.

I know that a good chunk of that $75 Million from Collingwood is gaming revenue. When they analyse NRL clubs, they generally do not take into consideration revenue from the associated leagues clubs.

Speaking for my club (Canberra), one of the smallest teams in the comp, we take in about $50 million p.a and that's not including money from others investments such as property. We've now also got another $80 million property development project lined up and awaiting approval in the city centre.

Canterbury-Bankstown takes in about $100 million p.a on top of the $25 odd million from football operations.

The Penrith Panthers Group are the biggest of all, taking in about $150 million p.a.
 
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R_Premiers said:
The club finances comparison is apple and oranges really.

I know that a good chunk of that $75 Million from Collingwood is gaming revenue. When they analyse NRL clubs, they generally do not take into consideration revenue from the associated leagues clubs.

Speaking for my club (Canberra), one of the smallest teams in the comp, we take in about $50 million p.a and that's not including money from others investments such as property. We've now also got another $80 million property development project lined up and awaiting approval in the city centre.

Canterbury-Bankstown takes in about $100 million p.a on top of the $25 odd million from football operations.

The Penrith Panthers Group are the biggest of all, taking in about $150 million p.a.
Click to expand...

The problem is that even if you take out the 21 million in gaming revenue, the $50+ million the Pies make from football revenue - $16 million from membership alone - still obliterates any club in the country on pure football terms. It would be interesting to see how it would shape up if we took gaming revenue from the clubs to compare though. Might do that if i get the time.

The second problem is that for whatever reason, the leagues clubs and the clubs themselves separated operations and are legally separate entities. AFL clubs are not.

The third problem is that its Rugby league media - Telegraph, SMH - that go on about NRL clubs requiring leagues club grants. If they are as intertwined as you imply then surely this couldnt be a problem.
 
The_Wookie said:
The problem is that even if you take out the 21 million in gaming revenue, the $50+ million the Pies make from football revenue - $16 million from membership alone - still obliterates any club in the country on pure football terms. It would be interesting to see how it would shape up if we took gaming revenue from the clubs to compare though. Might do that if i get the time.

The second problem is that for whatever reason, the leagues clubs and the clubs themselves separated operations and are legally separate entities. AFL clubs are not.

The third problem is that its Rugby league media - Telegraph, SMH - that go on about NRL clubs requiring leagues club grants. If they are as intertwined as you imply then surely this couldnt be a problem.
Click to expand...

Many leagues clubs are actually not entwined with the rugby league club/team that runs out of the club.

Over the years, primarily because of poker machines particuarly in NSW, leagues clubs amongst other clubs such as Golf, Bowling, RSL clubs etc began to make obscene profits from pokies.

The make up of the boards running these clubs began to change to reflect different things, no longer was the board of a leagues club all RL fans, with ideas of sinking all the profits back into a RL team, they began to put the money into upgrading the club, and facilities for the members, buying property, buying other clubs and creating a chain, such as Panthers group , which springs to mind, they have clubs all over NSW. ( Penrith leagues club )

Many members of leagues clubs have no interest at all in RL, and consider sinking money into RL teams a bad investment and a waste of members money.

Some RL teams find it quite difficult to get grants/funds from the actual leagues club that was started in their name.

It is a weird setup, but in NSW, clubs are a very powerful and vocal lobby, QLD is pretty much the same.
 
First of all, why aren't Super Rugby and International Rugby also discussed if your going to make comparisons with other codes?

Secondly, whether your a moderator or not, stick to rules about posting about other codes. Making "exceptions" is just ridiculous. Makes a mockery of the posting guidelines.
 

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Cmarsh said:
First of all, why aren't Super Rugby and International Rugby also discussed if your going to make comparisons with other codes?

Secondly, whether your a moderator or not, stick to rules about posting about other codes. Making "exceptions" is just ridiculous. Makes a mockery of the posting guidelines.
Click to expand...

First, the topic at hand deals specifically with the AFls major competitor in the industry.
Second, theres not enough data on Super rugby to write anything worthwhile about, the same goes with soccer for that matter.There is a wealth of material being published recently concerning both the AFL and NRL finances, ratings and crowds.

As for the rest, I talked it over with admins and we agreed to make this exception, or it wouldnt be here. We do however thank you for your concerns. If you'd like to take it further, please contact a member of the admin staff.
 
The_Wookie said:
First, the topic at hand deals specifically with the AFls major competitor in the industry.
Second, theres not enough data on Super rugby to write anything worthwhile about, the same goes with soccer for that matter.There is a wealth of material being published recently concerning both the AFL and NRL finances, ratings and crowds.

As for the rest, I talked it over with admins and we agreed to make this exception, or it wouldnt be here. We do however thank you for your concerns. If you'd like to take it further, please contact a member of the admin staff.
Click to expand...
Generally I think it's a little unfair to the NRL making comparisons with AFL based on crowds, TV ratings, revenue etc. After all, in NSW and QLD, they have a whole other code (Rugby Union) that is major competition. AFL just doesn't have this to worry about, basically got the Southern states to themselves.
 
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Cmarsh said:
Generally I think it's a little unfair to the NRL making comparisons with AFL based on crowds, TV ratings, revenue etc. After all, in NSW and QLD, they have a whole other code (Rugby Union) that is major competition. AFL just doesn't have this to worry about, basically got the Southern states to themselves.
Click to expand...

your feedback is noted, but since they are currently shown on the same number of network, and pride themselves on their ratings, then Im comfortable in making the comparison. Neither is it the AFLs fault that the NRL shows no inclination to expand its horizons south beyond Melbourne. The fact is when it comes to the TV broadcast dollar, and sponsorship, memberships and crowds, the NRL is the only real competitor at present to the AFL, and its the only way to put AFL figures in any sort of context.
 
Here is another interesting comparison,

If you look at Website visits (page 6) the AFL more than doubles the NRL. But when it comes to the Mobile Apps (page 3) they are very much even. Just like crowds v TV viewers:confused:

WEBSITE - UA (Unique Addresses) - PI (Page impressions)
AFL - 1,704,000 - 86,368,000
NRL - 839,000 - 38,776,000

MOBILE/APP - UA - PI
AFL - 1,394,000 - 12,080,000
NRL - 1,389,000 - 12,362,000
 
Hoops said:
Here is another interesting comparison,

If you look at Website visits (page 6) the AFL more than doubles the NRL. But when it comes to the Mobile Apps (page 3) they are very much even. Just like crowds v TV viewers:confused:

WEBSITE - UA (Unique Addresses) - PI (Page impressions)
AFL - 1,704,000 - 86,368,000
NRL - 839,000 - 38,776,000

MOBILE/APP - UA - PI
AFL - 1,394,000 - 12,080,000
NRL - 1,389,000 - 12,362,000
Click to expand...

Just had a look at why the NRL app is so popular relative to their website V the AFL and it turns out that you can watch 6 games live on it, that might also explain why the NRL TV atings are down
 
The Greuan Transfer on ABC TV had a good summary of both organizations last Wed night

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/42895

The only thing they got wrong was that they said both got about the same crowds which we know is not true the AFL gets aprox double the NRL crowds over the season.
 
The_Wookie said:
The problem is that even if you take out the 21 million in gaming revenue, the $50+ million the Pies make from football revenue - $16 million from membership alone - still obliterates any club in the country on pure football terms. It would be interesting to see how it would shape up if we took gaming revenue from the clubs to compare though. Might do that if i get the time.

The second problem is that for whatever reason, the leagues clubs and the clubs themselves separated operations and are legally separate entities. AFL clubs are not.

The third problem is that its Rugby league media - Telegraph, SMH - that go on about NRL clubs requiring leagues club grants. If they are as intertwined as you imply then surely this couldnt be a problem.
Click to expand...

Notably, the differences between football department revenue bears out the financial differences.

The problem with including a Leagues Club directly into the equation is that they are not primarily concerned with funding the football club, they are firstly concerned with running a venue. None of the Leagues Clubs are actually worth much more than $5m/yr for practical funding. As a practical matter, they mostly serve as a safety net.
 
I dont think the statement that the AFL would lose on their finals series is correct

The would make millions every year I think what AD was saying is that they wouldnt make as much because Collingwood and Richmond didnt go further into the finals.To give a clue the replay GF had a profit of 6 million for the AFL and the prices were not as high as they are now.

The AFL finals alone would take millions more than the NRL finals do.
 
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finders said:
I dont think the statement that the AFL would lose on their finals series is correct

The would make millions every year I think what AD was saying is that they wouldnt make as much because Collingwood and Richmond didnt go further into the finals.To give a clue the replay GF had a profit of 6 million for the AFL and the prices were not as high as they are now.

The AFL finals alone would take millions more than the NRL finals do.
Click to expand...

My understanding isnt that that they would lose mone on it, its that they wouldnt get as much as they were hoping and budgeted for.
 
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http://www.watoday.com.au/afl/afl-n...llion-on-northern-markets-20140224-33d3w.html

Citing participation numbers around the country, Smith said: ''Wind the clock forward five years and we will be the biggest sporting community in the country.

''By that point we will hopefully have gone through the current rights deal and see a big uptake in the number of people playing the game and the number of people watching the game, and that will add more value to our rights.

''Our results show that rugby league is investing more in the game than ever before and now [it] is truly positioned to enter a period of growth that will make it the strongest and healthiest it has ever been.''

This includes a $120 million growth fund to help develop grassroots competitions, NRL clubs and stadium infrastructure, while former AFL commissioner Graeme Samuel, now an ARL commissioner, will head a sub-committee charged with overseeing what has been termed as an $80 million war chest.

With match attendances slipping about 3per cent and television ratings dropping by 2per cent last year, Smith signalled the NRL's intent at its annual meeting in Sydney.

The ARLC revealed a record $45.3 million surplus from revenue of $314 million for 2013, while the grants to the 16 NRL clubs increased from $76 million to almost $120 million. Funding for state leagues and affiliates increased 18 per cent to about $17million.
Click to expand...


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ern-markets-20140224-33d3w.html#ixzz2uEciKc9P
 
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