Recruiting AFL Draft Watch 2022 - Tsatas, Hayes, Davey x2, Munkara & Montgomerie

[eDPS]

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[BrunoV]

I'm a bit over this obsession about needing a big midfielder. If we don't rate one then why add them to the list? He'd have to leapfrog Parish, Merrett, Caldwell, Stringer, Hobbs and Perkins as a starting point. You've then got McGrath, Shiel, Langford, Durham and Martin floating through there in various capacities. We've addressed some key weaknesses of ball use, small defensive stocks and a gaping hole in our forward line with these two picks.

I agree in one sense.

No doubt we needed a quick small defender, one with a great kick is a real plus, and a small forward (and we still need another 2 or 3).

But the constant theme is that no big midfielder ever seems to be good enough, other than Stringer who is not a midfielder. If it's not Stinger it's stumping up the equivalent of Dyson and a third round pick for Josh Dunkley with 2 years to run on his contract.

Since 2015 we have paid lip service to the qualities in midfields that good teams in these last 7 years have had in their midfields in abundance. These are the qualities that stand up in finals in which we are obliterated.

When you throw in a review run by people who think we are within 2 to 3 years of premiership contention, without even 1 of the midfield pieces every other good team builds from it speaks to a level of delusion that will almost inevitably consign us to another 5 to 7 years of mediocrity.

We've seen this in one form or another for 10 years, being unable to move on from a midfield that doesn't work.

Honestly part of me wonders whether they are afraid that the midfield they pinned their hopes or childish affection to will be exposed for the pack of duds it is.

 

[Zach Package]

Can Durham become that? We need a Langdon type winger to.

Durham is definitely one who is tracking very well for 20 given wingers develop quite late as they learn to stay away from the footy and hold width.

Another would help a great deal, I don’t think Cox develops into a primary winger and Langford is nice there but better elsewhere imo.

The good news I reckon we can get one at draft time, for everyone saying there aren’t a lot of big bodied mids in this draft, I think there are a fair few at that 186-192 type height that can run and take a mark that may appeal.

 

[Seb78]

That would imply that I think Carmichael would make a difference. Good to know all the amateur list managers on BigFooty know more than the people who get paid to do it for a living though...

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that they know more than the people employed to do the job, however when the people employed to do the job haven't delivered success of any kind for the better part of 20 years, I mean, you can see why we have our opinions.

 

[TheGrizz]

Not a huge fan of the D'Ambrosia pick but Menzie makes sense. No big midfielders in the draft at the end of the year makes it even more bizarre.

Matteus Phillipou a chance for SA, 192cm mid who is good overhead.

eDPS has him at 18 whilst I think Smythe mocked him to us at 4

 

[Mikevk123]

Missed the melts.. heck

 

[eth-dog]

Matteus Phillipou a chance for SA, 192cm mid who is good overhead.

eDPS has him at 18 whilst I think Smythe mocked him to us at 4

Apparently more of a Half forward/wing type ala Martin/Langford

 

[eDPS]

Apparently more of a Half forward/wing type ala Martin/Langford

That’s where I see him long term but he is currently playing in the guts with some rotations forward.

 

[Mikevk123]

Bunch of inside midfielders, watch us completley waste our pick on D'Ambrosio, a player we have a dozen of and don't need.

Elite foresight

 

[Harlequin Dream]

eDPS What do you make of the Gippsland Power squad this year? Undefeated yet they don't have any consensus first round talents this year.

What makes them a good team?

 

[eDPS]

eDPS What do you make of the Gippsland Power squad this year? Undefeated yet they don't have any consensus first round talents this year.

What makes them a good team?

They have been playing a lot of the Country teams so far, have to wait to see them play a full strength Oakleigh/Sandringham to get a good read.

 

[FlyingV]

In Dodoros defence, in the last 18 or so months we have lost: McKenna, Saad, Fantasia and Tippa. All for circumstances Dodo can’t control.
We have literally lost the 4 players that made our run and gun style of footy work, that differentiated us from other clubs. None of those players were high draft picks btw, all were savvy draft selections/pickups.

For those questioning why we picked up D’Ambrosio, it’s becuase the 4 players above have left a gaping hole in our list, and have decimated our ability to provide run off half back, and pressure the ball carrier on both sides of the ground/ kick easier goals. All that and we have been without Snelling (another astute pickup from nothing) who’s importance was identified when he came 3rd in our BnF.

In order to resolve this, we are seeing the selections of DAmbrosio, Snelling, Lord, Jye and Hind.

I know we all want the big bodied mid, myself included just to end all the speculation but it’s not the only desperate need on our list. And there’s no point in getting to the footy first if there is bugger all pressure being applied around the ground.

The trades are where I think Dodo has miss-calculated our list maturity. But again, can he be expected to predict the exodus of players we have had, lack of development of players, changing of coaches? It’s not as simple as ‘Dodo has had 20 years to get this right’.

 

[faible]

it's stumping up the equivalent of Dyson and a third round pick for Josh Dunkley

Try again.

 

[faible]

In Dodoros defence, in the last 18 or so months we have lost: McKenna, Saad, Fantasia and Tippa. All for circumstances Dodo can’t control.
We have literally lost the 4 players that made our run and gun style of footy work, that differentiated us from other clubs. None of those players were high draft picks btw, all were savvy draft selections/pickups.

For those questioning why we picked up D’Ambrosio, it’s becuase the 4 players above have left a gaping hole in our list, and have decimated our ability to provide run off half back, and pressure the ball carrier on both sides of the ground/ kick easier goals. All that and we have been without Snelling (another astute pickup from nothing) who’s importance was identified when he came 3rd in our BnF.

In order to resolve this, we are seeing the selections of DAmbrosio, Snelling, Lord, Jye and Hind.

I know we all want the big bodied mid, myself included just to end all the speculation but it’s not the only desperate need on our list. And there’s no point in getting to the footy first if there is bugger all pressure being applied around the ground.

The trades are where I think Dodo has miss-calculated our list maturity. But again, can he be expected to predict the exodus of players we have had, lack of development of players, changing of coaches? It’s not as simple as ‘Dodo has had 20 years to get this right’.

We've picked up two players noted for their work-rate, competitiveness, and in D'Ambrosio's case we've got a guy who can be a good user off the backline. Think how many times we've been torn apart by a Daniel Rich, Jayden Short or Caleb f-ing Daniel at 3'6" kicking straight through our zone. Meanwhile our pack of mostly average kicks down back are kicking long down the line every time.

 

[yodellinhank]

eDPS What do you make of the Gippsland Power squad this year? Undefeated yet they don't have any consensus first round talents this year.

All slipping down the order due to the go-home factor

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Bunch of inside midfielders, watch us completley waste our pick on D'Ambrosio, a player we have a dozen of and don't need.

 

[JayJ20]

For list strategy I'd say we actually need to get some great ball users coming out of the backline. At we have a mix of horrible users (Heppell/Kelly), okay users that can hit a simple target (Hind, McGrath and Laverde) and good users that struggle with agility and cutting angles on the man on the mark (Reid, Ridley, Redman).

Unfortunately Lord looks a mile off it (though was the youngest in his draft so has time) and McDonagh not much better. There would need to be a stack of growth for either to get an extension. It's clearly an area of need they recognize and unfortunately covid has hampered the ability to see the talent pool clearly.

I'm less concerned with how the ball is moved out of the defence at this stage of the list build because the core of the side is completely out of balance. We've already seen how useless good ball use from defence (under Woosha) is if that's the main avenue to goal. Surely there comes a time where the midfield is finally prioritised? The midfield ultimately makes or breaks a side.

My comments about Lord and McDonagh are less to do with how they're tracking and more to do with how one dimensional the list strategy really is. Throw a bunch of picks at HB flankers hoping one of them sticks. I wish they did the same for the most important part of the ground.

Collingwood are brimming with midfield depth and they selected Carmichael. Fremantle don't have enough space for the level of midfield talent coming through. Meanwhile over at Essendon, the VFL side has no developing mids. When do they stop delaying the midfield and start prioritising it?

 

[Harlequin Dream]

One of the few strengths going forward is the two towers at either end. Adding a competitive small at either end actually makes sense.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I'm less concerned with how the ball is moved out of the defence at this stage of the list build because the core of the side is completely out of balance. We've already seen how useless good ball use from defence (under Woosha) is if that's the main avenue to goal. Surely there comes a time where the midfield is finally prioritised? The midfield ultimately makes or breaks a side.

My comments about Lord and McDonagh are less to do with how they're tracking and more to do with how one dimensional the list strategy really is. Throw a bunch of picks at HB flankers hoping one of them sticks. I wish they did the same for the most important part of the ground.

Collingwood are brimming with midfield depth and they selected Carmichael. Fremantle don't have enough space for the level of midfield talent coming through. Meanwhile over at Essendon, the VFL side has no developing mids. When do they stop delaying the midfield and start prioritising it?

If you view this as an actual rebuild; the core of the midfield is heading into a good direction. We are currently looking at a midfield in 3+ years of Martin (190), Perkins (188), Durham (185), Caldwell/Hobbs (183).

Forget nearly everyone before McGrath, they mostly have horrible ingrained attributes. Look at who we have brought in since Truck: nearly every one of them bar the two half backs last year (who we didn't really seem that excited to draft per trying to trade up the draft order) are ultra competitive. Perkins, Durham, Hobbs, Voss, Caldwell, Massimo, Tex, Menzie.

For mine this reads as Rutten isn't critical of size, after all Richmond three flagged with a small midfield. He's critical of our lack of competitiveness. That is his number one draftable attribute.

Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised if we went after 181cm George Wardlaw in the draft at the end of the year.

 

[Vindicater]

One Davey twin clearly looks amazing and a bid will come somewhere likely in the 15-25 range.

How is the other one tracking and will a bid likely come?

 

[JayJ20]

If you view this as an actual rebuild; the core of the midfield is heading into a good direction. We are currently looking at a midfield in 3+ years of Martin (190), Perkins (188), Durham (185), Caldwell/Hobbs (183).

Forget nearly everyone before McGrath, they mostly have horrible ingrained attributes. Look at who we have brought in since Truck: nearly every one of them bar the two half backs last year (who we didn't really seem that excited to draft per trying to trade up the draft order) are ultra competitive. Perkins, Durham, Hobbs, Voss, Caldwell, Massimo, Tex, Menzie.

For mine this reads as Rutten isn't critical of size, after all Richmond three flagged with a small midfield. He's critical of our lack of competitiveness. That is his number one draftable attribute.

Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised if we went after 181cm George Wardlaw in the draft at the end of the year.

It's a good plan to target competitive players, but I'd be cautious about trying to copy Richmond.
Yes they had a small midfield, but they were also losing clearances and contested possessions quite regularly because of it. In fact, they were bottom 3 for clearances in almost every year from 2017 and 2021. That's not usual for a premiership side because they didn't have a usual list. Most of their dominance was also prior to two significant rule changes that impacted their defensive set up (6-6-6 and stand rule). Those two rule changes nerfed their defensive dominance.

It's also important to remember that they had the best midfielder over the last 10 years. He'll go down as probably one of the best finals player of all time. Despite how good they were, Richmond don't win those premierships without Dusty. Richmond's entire game was based on losing clearances, waiting for the turnover by implementing a good defensive system, destroying teams after forcing a turnover and then locking the ball inside 50 through manic pressure and a sound defensive wall outside 50. They didn't need good skills or a dominant midfield because they had the best back 6 in the competition and probably the best full ground defensive system I've ever seen. They ran sides down through pressure and superior fitness over 4 quarters.

I don't think it's wise to build a small midfield because there's no evidence that there is a Dusty-like player on the list, nor is there a guarantee that the list will be as fit, defensive and competitive as Richmond were. Out of the midfielders you listed, only Perkins is a potential tall inside mid and that's still speculative. I'd be more comfortable if there was a JHF or Tom Green on the list, but there isn't any (yet). What's more than that, the current best team (Melbourne) is basically Richmond but with a bigger midfield that makes them even more defensively sound.

Looking at the teams on the up, there are some dominant midfields coming through, especially Fremantle. There's no way the current young midfielders on the list will be able to compete with Fremantle's young mids in a few years. Collingwood and North also have big young mids. I don't want to see another list build where giant mids are dominating both the air and the ground because of the size difference. It's counterproductive to selecting competitive players when they're physically disadvantaged. Coaches need to be able to anticipate where the game is heading and clearances are becoming more and more important.

I'd rather go for a more reliable system of dominating clearances and contested possessions because that's where the game is won. Let's hope Rutten finally addresses what has been the single biggest reason for the 18-year finals drought. Midfield balance.

 

[The Prosecutor]

One Davey twin clearly looks amazing and a bid will come somewhere likely in the 15-25 range.

How is the other one tracking and will a bid likely come?

Good and bad news.

Good: According to eDPS, some around Oakleigh think Jayden might be the more talented of the two.

Bad: He’s not playing this year after his second ACL (believe they were different knees).

The upshot to the bad is that hopefully a bid will come late or not at all.

 

[Lore]

Review of mid-season draftees

National recruiting manager Rob Forster-Knight reviews the Bombers' two selections from the 2022 NAB AFL Mid-Season Rookie Draft.

www.essendonfc.com.au

Profiles of both draftees from RFK.

Menzie “has a good balance between attack and defence, which we really value” — now where have I heard this phrase before

Ah yes, every VFL player update all year in reference to the draftees we got last year and previous years who are “working on it”. Good to see the feedback loop from coach to recruiting has been accelerated.

 

[Keystone agony]

If a Davey isnt nominated then can they be a cat B rookie?

 

[Call Me Cake]

I've only seen one video of the Daveys playing. Are we basing most of our excitement on name only?

 

[faible]

It's a good plan to target competitive players, but I'd be cautious about trying to copy Richmond.
Yes they had a small midfield, but they were also losing clearances and contested possessions quite regularly because of it. In fact, they were bottom 3 for clearances in almost every year from 2017 and 2021. That's not usual for a premiership side because they didn't have a usual list. Most of their dominance was also prior to two significant rule changes that impacted their defensive set up (6-6-6 and stand rule). Those two rule changes nerfed their defensive dominance.

It's also important to remember that they had the best midfielder over the last 10 years. He'll go down as probably one of the best finals player of all time. Despite how good they were, Richmond don't win those premierships without Dusty. Richmond's entire game was based on losing clearances, waiting for the turnover by implementing a good defensive system, destroying teams after forcing a turnover and then locking the ball inside 50 through manic pressure and a sound defensive wall outside 50. They didn't need good skills or a dominant midfield because they had the best back 6 in the competition and probably the best full ground defensive system I've ever seen. They ran sides down through pressure and superior fitness over 4 quarters.

I don't think it's wise to build a small midfield because there's no evidence that there is a Dusty-like player on the list, nor is there a guarantee that the list will be as fit, defensive and competitive as Richmond were. Out of the midfielders you listed, only Perkins is a potential tall inside mid and that's still speculative. I'd be more comfortable if there was a JHF or Tom Green on the list, but there isn't any (yet). What's more than that, the current best team (Melbourne) is basically Richmond but with a bigger midfield that makes them even more defensively sound.

Looking at the teams on the up, there are some dominant midfields coming through, especially Fremantle. There's no way the current young midfielders on the list will be able to compete with Fremantle's young mids in a few years. Collingwood and North also have big young mids. I don't want to see another list build where giant mids are dominating both the air and the ground because of the size difference. It's counterproductive to selecting competitive players when they're physically disadvantaged. Coaches need to be able to anticipate where the game is heading and clearances are becoming more and more important.

I'd rather go for a more reliable system of dominating clearances and contested possessions because that's where the game is won. Let's hope Rutten finally addresses what has been the single biggest reason for the 18-year finals drought. Midfield balance.

FWIW Horne-Francis is only 184cm, he's not a ultra-tall clearance beast like Green.

Our midfield isn't that far out of balance, it seems worse than it is right now because we're missing Langford on a wing, Durham is still young, Shiel has gone AWOL, Hobbs isn't ready for full-time minutes yet, and Caldwell is TBC as to what he ends up being.

Another Hobbs type personality in the midfield, Perkins looks like being a dynamic inside-outside stoppage player, and some decent marking power on the wings and from the half-forwards will start to turn things.

Parish & Merrett are a solid midfield pairing to build around IMO, they need someone else at stoppages that can support how they play though. Neale regularly has guys like Lyons and and McCluggage starting in the middle with him. Parish is our Neale type, Merrett is our McCluggage type, we don't really have a Lyons type to support them. And yes, they both need to run defensively because neither is that good they can get away without doing it.

Stringer is a out and out stoppage brute, but in a way that doesn't support the Parish + Merrett pair and kind of just sits in his own category.
Shiel is OK as a depth player, but again, doesn't complement Parish + Merrett.
Hobbs should grow to be complementary, in the same way Viney complements Oliver & Petracca.

You mention Fremantle, their most common CBA attendees this season are Brayshaw (184cm), Serong (178cm) & Brodie (190cm). Which isn't that far off a stoppage setup of Parish + Merrett + <someone>.

If we manage to actually draft a Jack Graham / Hewett type midfielder later in the draft and do some good FA shopping like we've done the last couple of years, the dynamic should start to turn. Shiel is the one that really stands out to me as not fitting with our stoppage setup moving forward; too similar to Parish and of an age where he'll be tailing off when the 2020 onwards draftees are hitting their straps.

Most of the high end midfielders this draft are mid-sized guys unfortunately.