When did Dixon and Cameron start playing for the bulldogs?
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AFL forward line rankings
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When did Dixon and Cameron start playing for the bulldogs?
Bulldogs obviously outscored their opponent's in every game they played in September, so it is not a surprise the had the number one ranked offense. The two highest scores of the finals series were for teams other than the Bulldogs. Dogs scored 100+ only once, and the most impressive aspect of their wins was restricting the scoring of their opposition rather than blowing them away on the scoreboard. Their best offensive effort was the flurry of goals that put Hawthorn away, but apart from that, I don't think their forward line was largely where they were winning the games.
I think their midfield deserves a lot more of the credit, even when it comes to their scoring opportunities. Not only were their mids very good at moving the ball quickly into the forward line to maximise their return on inside 50s, they were also excellent at keeping it there once it arrived. I recall in the Hawthorn final it seemed impossible for us to get it out of the Dogs forward line due to the way their mids setup for stoppages.
Cats, particularly in 07-09 had a terrific offense but the forwards were makeshift. Nablett Young Hawkins Mooney Pods
so you can have a great offense but not have the best fwd six on paper
so you can have a great offense but not have the best fwd six on paper
WallyStringhaus
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You make some great points here but its no different to how most other elite teams operate.
Most seem to rate Sydneys forward line above the Dogs but just look at the GF. 7 of sydneys 10 goals came from non forwards. Their midfield was amazing and were able to push forward and score from stoppages. Dogs on the other hand got 3 from Boyd, 3 from Dickson, 2 from Picken, 1 from Stringer, Cordy Smith and McLean...all forwards.
Similar story throughout the finals, including the Hawks game where Stringer, Picken, Smith, Dickson and McLean all hit the scoreboard.
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Can only guess he meant meant Dickson and Campbell.
All he had to say was Stringer!
billy fragos
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Why did we kick the most points last season if our forward line is so bog average?...
Apparently our key forwards are bog average and defence is terrible. But our midfield is good. If he knew anything about the crows then it is our forward line is great, backline is very good but we lack in the midfield. 18 years is a long time to have a sore anus
Port to a degree yeah, fair enough in fact I agree that your forward line is better than theirs. St Kilda I'd take over yours only just but again, that's just me.
I'd agree, but in general Sydney are a team that do score a reasonable number of goals from the midfield, without seeing stats, I'm sure their mids score a lot more goals than say Hawthorn's do. Also buddy was injured that day, so their main forward was less effective, and they had to rely on their mids even more than usual. I don't think I'd rate Sydney's forward line a long way ahead of Dogs. They have one very good forward, a second tall forward that has proven to be be more useful in the ruck than the forward line, and average small forwards (if you exclude the guys who are really mids). If you want to score the dog's forward line on how well it meshes with their midfielders, then I'd rate them higher, but ignoring their mids, and focusing only on their individual performances as forwards, I don't think they deserve to be rated third in the competition. They just don't have the depth of talent in that area of the ground to warrant it (IMO of course). While you can say the finals are a better test of how good your forward line is, I'm not sure a sample of four games is more reliable than the full H&A season where you finished 12th for points scored for. Sure , you clicked at the right time, but even your finals series wasn't a massive score fest.
My main point was that players like Boyd, Dickson, Picken etc did well in large part due to the job their mids did at keeping the ball in there. Dog's mids were not always kicking the goals, but the reason it was still in the forward line when their forward scored had a lot to do with their midfield. Yes, lots of teams setup like that, but it doesn't mean the forwards get the kudos for all that defensive work from the mids. As a comparison, I don't rate the Geelong 2007-2011 forward line very highly, but they had one of the best midfields ever and that allowed them to score very heavily (yes, with big contributions from their mids, but their forwards were productive during that time too). Their forward line don't deserve the main credit for that scoring.
This isn't an attempt to belittle the dog's premiership team. They were very easily the best team in the competition at the pointy end of the season, but all teams have strengths and weaknesses, and I just don't think their forward line was a big reason they were so good, and certainly not the third best going around. To be fair , the ranking list posted is based on expected form next year, and Boyd will likely continue to improve, but the same can be said of a number of other teams - many who showed they could score more highly than dogs did in 2016 - even with their great midfield helping out.
WallyStringhaus
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Which of the following teams would you select as having a better forward line;
Team A:
Scored 100+ ten times, all against sides that missed the finals.
Scored 85+ one time against teams that made the finals
Had scores of 29, 36 and 45 (all 10 goal losses) against sides that made the finals.
Team B:
Scored 100+ seven times, twice against sides that made the finals.
Scored 85+ six times against sides that made the finals.
Score of 43 (10 goal loss) against a side that made the finals.
Team A or B?
EFA - the Bulldogs played 26 games in 2016, St Kilda only played 22 therefore there is an unbalanced comparison.
I'd take Team A because that's St Kilda and I think their forward line is better
Jhye Clark 13
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Think back to Tom Hawkins in the 2011 grand final. Like Boyd last year, I think Hawkins was stiff not to walk away with the Norm Smith Medal.
The next year he kicked 62 goals. It'll be interesting to see how Boyd fares.
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You guys are all just jealous.
Michael Apeness, Harley Bennell, Cameron McCarthy and Danyle Pearce... there's like 7 goals from 2016 right there
Michael Apeness, Harley Bennell, Cameron McCarthy and Danyle Pearce... there's like 7 goals from 2016 right there
If it's any consolation, I think your forward line is worse than Carlton's...we just missed out on the 3peat- 18th defense, 18th midfield and 17th forwards, oh what could have been.
WallyStringhaus
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Thanks for your thoughtful response. Kudos...and once again some great points made. The one thing that stands out for me is the point you made about us clicking at the right time and this is the basis for my opinion as to why i think that we are appropriately ranked.
Clay Smith is a midfielder. He was bought in 2/3 of the way through the season and given the job as a small defensive forward. This guy was coming off 3 knee reco's so needed time to find his feet. Like i pointed out earlier he kicked 8 and laid 37 tackles in 4 games across the finals. Watch the Prelim and tell me this guy is not a natural forward.
Liam Picken has proven to be a brilliant footballer wherever he is placed on the ground. Yes midfielders need to supply the ball but forwards still need to do the job. Watch his first quarter in the final against WCE...the contested marking, the goal from a tight angle in the third. Listen to the MMM commentary of the GF in the last quarter and listen to the boys marvel at how he does not get beat one on one. His hanger in the last has nothing to do with midfield supply and everything to do with individual brilliance.
Watch Tory Dickson's forward craft against Heath Shaw in the PF and tell me he is not a brilliant forward line player. He has kicked 90 goals in the last two seasons and 15 in five finals.
I think the Dogs have been massively underrated in this thread...particularly by some of our own, but we're all entitled to our opinions.
F: Smith/Dunkley, Cloke/Boyd/Redpath/Roughead, Dickson/McLean
HF: Stringer/Crameri, Cloke/Boyd, Picken/Bontempelli
I'm quite happy with where we are at and honestly think we uncorked the genie in September. There's quality and depth at every position. If we stay fit and aren't hungover and hopefully have some premiership swagger then i think you will see some massive scores from us next year.
WallyStringhaus
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How about i average it out for you;
St.Kilda vs Top 8 teams in 2016
10 games, 2 wins, average of 65.4 points, Highest Score 93,
WB vs Top 8 teams in 2016
13 games, 8 wins, average of 81.76 points, Highest Score 123
FWIW Brisbane also played 10 games against the Top 8 teams in 2016...they averaged 74.6 points. Still think the Saints are that good or have i proven that they are flat track bullies?
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And lets just remember that Tom Boyd is 2 years younger than what hawkins was at that stage. So a lot of room for improvement
Yes I still think they are that good
Jhye Clark 13
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Sometimes 1 game is all it takes to arrive on the scene. After being much maligned since coming to the Dogs, hopefully now he's taken the next step. There's nothing better than watching power forwards dominate.
I reminisce about the days of Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett, Modra, dominating forward lines.
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Freo way too high, Geelong slightly too high, North too low and Adelaide should be no1. Our ranking is pretty fair, lot of 'potential' but needs Hogan and Kent to take the next step, Watts replicates his 2016 form at a minimum, Garlett lifting back towards his 2015 form and probably getting 15-20 goals from Weideman and Pedersen combined.
WallyStringhaus
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Well, mad props to you for sticking to your guns...all the best. FWIW i think your boys will finish Top 6 this year.
The Dogs are a brilliant team, but their forward line definetely isnt a strength relative to their flag competitors. WC and Swans too low on the list.
Id have the top 6 some mix of Crows, GWS, Eagles, Swans, and if Roughy plays to his old self then the Hawks too
Id have the top 6 some mix of Crows, GWS, Eagles, Swans, and if Roughy plays to his old self then the Hawks too
Certainly, and it is not impossible to argue that you have a top 3 forward line, I just think your performance across the entire 2016 season doesn't warrant it yet. Maybe the AFL pundits who wrote the article are correct, and by the end of this year, you'll have jumped up into the top 3 - which will be scary given the quality you already have in other areas of the ground.
Certainly not a terrible forward line, but in terms of top 3, I just don't see it. Compare to Hawthorn (who was only the 6th highest score team in the H&A season last year), and using your bolded players, and a reasonable guess at our starting forward line for next year here is the average goals per game for each forward line:
F: Smith(1.4) Boyd(0.9) Dickson(1.8)
HF: Stringer(1.8) Cloke(1.3) Picken(0.6)
versus
F: Breust (2.0), Roughead (2.1), Puopolo(1.6)
HF: Rioli(2.2), Vickery(1.5), Gunston(2.1)
So Roughead is speculation, and the numbers are based on his 2015 average. You could also find a forward to replace Picken who played less midfield time than he did to get a higher average, but I think it is pretty clear which of those forward lines has more firepower based on recent form (even taking out Roughead and putting Sicily in at 1.4 still has us ahead). That is comparing you to the team that finished 6th for points-for.
You can definitely argue that more of our players have peaked than yours, but you are hoping for a lot of improvement to jump ahead of the 6th highest scoring forward line - and you have Cloke.
In any case, I think it speaks for how strong you were in other parts of the ground, and I think some are still underrating the rest of the team, but right now, 3rd best forward line looks like it might overrating the dog's forwards at this stage.
Not the worst rankings ever but:
- Dogs can be top 4 with Crameri back and if Boyd kicks 40, Clay Smith full season, Toby McLean comes on. But that's more a prediction based on improvement and not Cloke!
- West Coast too high. Kennedy is a star but the rest aren't.
- A couple of gun youngsters and Heeney staying forward could have the Swans top 4 but that depends on how they reinvent themselves.
- Geelong no. Major dysfunction. Although McCarthy is underrated and Menzel could find consistency otherwise they aren't best 8.
- If this is based on ideal conditions as best 22 then North should be far higher. Higgins, Waite, Wood, Garner/Simpkin. They actually have a lot of talent.
- Freo are just too inexperienced as a group and as individuals to get anywhere near 11th. Michael Walters is the only lock impact forward in that line up.
- Dogs can be top 4 with Crameri back and if Boyd kicks 40, Clay Smith full season, Toby McLean comes on. But that's more a prediction based on improvement and not Cloke!
- West Coast too high. Kennedy is a star but the rest aren't.
- A couple of gun youngsters and Heeney staying forward could have the Swans top 4 but that depends on how they reinvent themselves.
- Geelong no. Major dysfunction. Although McCarthy is underrated and Menzel could find consistency otherwise they aren't best 8.
- If this is based on ideal conditions as best 22 then North should be far higher. Higgins, Waite, Wood, Garner/Simpkin. They actually have a lot of talent.
- Freo are just too inexperienced as a group and as individuals to get anywhere near 11th. Michael Walters is the only lock impact forward in that line up.
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