AFL held plea bid without ASADA - Large Fries

[mxett]

the question's more complex than that. if there's cheating, who's involved in the cheating? is it dank? is it officials at the club? is it the players? is it any combination of those people?

what if pressure from doc reid and/or the players to have consent forms meant the club had to issue them? if the players were being kept in the dark and it was officials at the club that were involved in cheating, injecting someone with something that they didn't consent for when they had asked for a specific list of substances that they would be administered would have the club facing some pretty serious legal consequences beyond simply being caught by ASADA.

why be vague about thymosin at all? the vagueness can be used to argue that other forms of thymosin were used - just look at the effort ASADA have had to go through before it could charge for TB4? it also protects certain parties from litigation - players asked for thymosin and they got thymosin, it's their own fault it's not the one they wanted.

it doesnt protect players, it incriminates them> Protection is leaving the word thymosin off the consents entirely.

IMO Dank thought TB4 wasnt banned and didnt even give the word thymosin a second thought

 

[Ancient Tiger]

it doesnt protect players, it incriminates them> Protection is leaving the word thymosin off the consents entirely.

IMO Dank thought TB4 wasnt banned and didnt even give the word thymosin a second thought[/QUOTE]

Hey. That's what I said! He did know it was S0, so he knew it was just as banned as AOD, which was in the consents too. However, just like AOD, he thought that was an easy work around.

 

[Satan]

it doesnt protect players, it incriminates them> Protection is leaving the word thymosin off the consents entirely.

IMO Dank thought TB4 wasnt banned and didnt even give the word thymosin a second thought

Danks rusty gate has more credibility than Dank

 

[Broken_Chairs]

it doesnt protect players, it incriminates them> Protection is leaving the word thymosin off the consents entirely.

IMO Dank thought TB4 wasnt banned and didnt even give the word thymosin a second thought

my point there was that it protects the club/dank, not the players. leaving thymosin off the consent forms but injecting them with it would open the club/dank up to a whole range of legal consequences over and above ASADA penalties.

i have no idea what happened, i'm just thinking through the various possibilities

 

[Randomizor]

Well doesn't this just make them sound innocent

 

[Thrawn]

I'm saying that based on where this case is heading asada seem to have nothing they can pin on essendon , everything they have tried and used had backfired on them and it seems like they are waiting for essendon to make a mistake , why else haven't the players been suspensed and got bans fines etc if asada had evidence this would all be over by now but guess what they don't seem to have anything that will stick at this moment in time

Yeah, 6 days of nothing.

 

[Gigantor]

Hopefully all this shit ends soon everyone is sick of it either asada prove essendon are guilty or get over it and let the players move on and let them concentrate on there careers and lives , to me asada have nothing and are dragging it out so they can find something to pin on the bombers

It's quite clear that ASADA has no hard evidence of any Essendon player having taken TB4 (let alone all 34).

We know this from the evidence ASADA had collected as at August 2013, and it has been reinforced by the fact that ASADA issued generically worded SCNs.

It is widely accepted that ASADA has put together a circumstantial case, which they will have to narrate to the nth degree, because at every twist and turn, there is a gap through which the defence can drive a truck.

On top of that, the defence will make much of the lack of sworn statements from the key witnesses.

The defence will point to a myriad of ambiguities and inconsistencies in the interview transcripts with the key witnesses.

It's extremely unlikely that this will hold up in the tribunal.

To complicate things further, a support staff member is also before the tribunal, and his charges in total add up to as much as the 34 individual charges.

In fact, the first day was taken up entirely in talking about this support staff member (involving other clubs and substances other than EFC and TB4). Who knows how much of the case this person alone will take up.

One thing is for sure, ASADA is not presenting a lay down misère.

 

[fabulousphil]

Firstly, there were deals offered to the NRL players. Players are not an organisation.

Secondly what is your source that ex-NRL players were not offered the same deal?

But shortly after, a number of other Cronulla players - who were also with the club during 2011 - were given similar show-cause notices.

None are now playing in the NRL. Some are playing overseas, some have retired, and some are playing at lower levels.

None of these players was offered the deal that was offered to the current NRL players.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-12/questions-linger-over-cronullas-nrl-asada-deal/5740936

You work out who brokered the deals ??!!

 

[Apex Predators]

what does it say to you that the AFL have allowed players to train at their clubs and play international rules while facing charges? Serious question

It tells me that the AFL is continuing to make policy on the run and that policy making is usually defined by how they can protect their brand and revenue streams. If Essendon don't train together, their season is likely done even if they do get off the doping charges. A seriously under done team may result in less revenue for the league and club. Maybe Essendon threatened to sue in these circumstances for lost revenue. All speculation of course, but you asked.

 

[gjt80]

it doesnt protect players, it incriminates them> Protection is leaving the word thymosin off the consents entirely.

IMO Dank thought TB4 wasn't banned and didn't even give the word Thymosin a second thought

From the minute Dank's interview with Nick McKenzie was published it was obvious that Dank thought that TB4 and Thymosin were one and the same. Not sure who pointed out to Dank he could get himself out of a fix (or try to) by claiming he used 'the good Thymosin',

Thoroughly pointless giving fit and healthy athletes a supplement (Thymomodulin) given to infants who have an immune deficiency (as has been pointed out ad nauseam).

 

[jenny61_99]

Trials don't last a day. Have you ever been to one? Even when a person is dead set guilty, the trial can last for weeks.

I have some circumstantial evidence that Dank gave them a banned drug. It wasn't TB4, it was GHRP 6. Dank told a friend of mine that wrks in anti ageing back in January 2012 that he was giving the Essendon players this peptide. He also told him that it was WADA compliant. It wasn't till this friend spoke to me in March 2012, that he realised that the drug Dank gave was banned. I have emails from then proving this conversation took place. This friend was interviewed by ASADA. They were aware of this. The problem is that Dank specialises in making sure what he gives is untraceable. Why do you think there were no records. Why do you think that there were no purchase orders even after hundreds of injections that cost thousands of dollars.
When a guy is that good at covering his tracks, it takes a lot of forensic accounting and investigating to piece together what happened.

Do I believe the players cheated. No, not intentionally. They, like my friend were duped. They were stupid not to check, but suspicious enough to ask for consents. The problem is he duped them there too. Do I believed they received banned substances? Yes. That is Dank's modus operandi, performance enhancing peptides that disappear within 6 hours from the blood stream so the chance of testers getting you in that period are next to zero especially when injections are once a week and then once a month as with Thymosin beta 4.

Ok. Do you think Hird knew?

 

[Apex Predators]

Im not talking about TA1 specifically. I'm saying Dank attempted to get around s0 by doctor shopping and using a compounding pharmacist
I've already said what I think probably happened on a number of occasions. However I dont think we know everything. There could be game-changing information that is yet to be revealed that could change my view either way

Best post by an Essendon supporter I have seen. I have no idea whether ASADA have enough evidence to win its case, but Government agencies do not enter into expensive and frivolous litigation too often, if ever. Good to see someone acknowledging that there may be evidence we don't know about, rather than the senseless dribble about 99% of evidence being collected by ASADA's interim report and ASADA has zero 'hard evidence' blah blah blah.

 

[jenny61_99]

Well doesn't this just make them sound innocent

Innocent of deliberately cheating, but guilty of taking prohibited substances. Unfortunately both lead to the same end result.

 

[Apex Predators]

I'm not saying essendon is innocent as they are most likely guilty , asada have nothing though and are just trying to force the bombers to panic and admit there guilt

I think it is well past this theory now. They have argued their case, the players lawyers know what ASADA has against the players and will have a very good idea of where they stand. So how is ASADA going to be making the players panic if they have nothing, because the players would already know they are being bluffed.

 

[fabulousphil]

Innocent of deliberately cheating, but guilty of taking prohibited substances. Unfortunately both lead to the same end result.

Actually they don't.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm not saying essendon is innocent as they are most likely guilty , asada have nothing though and are just trying to force the bombers to panic and admit there guilt

I hope you're not serious.

 

[Muggs]

it was a question as to WHY they have allowed players to train and play a game. It's a pretty fair question too. Was Saad allowed this leniency?

Players are allowed to train as they are presumed innocent, thus not to be disadvantaged in the event they found not guilty. They not allowed to play as to get to this stage there is a case against them for them to answer and to allow them to play may give them an unfair advantage over the other side.

As for playing the international rules game, it was either ruled an exhibition game, non competitive, thus allowed to play or the players provisional suspension restarted at the end of the game, meaning any bans are back dated to this date.

 

[fabulousphil]

Ok. Do you think Hird knew?

 

[fabulousphil]

I'm not saying essendon is innocent as they are most likely guilty , asada have nothing though and are just trying to force the bombers to panic and admit there guilt

You must secretly barrack for Essendon, it is the only reasonable explanation

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Ok. Do you think Hird knew?

Obviously I'd be guessing. I think Hird thought that Dank knew what he was talking about. He believed Dank that it was WADA compliant, at least at the beginning of all of this. That is why he was so supportive of Dank. He was a guru. A sports scientist using the latest peptides that were performance enhancing but not yet banned. How beautiful. Hird has always been a bit like that. He wants to be the smartest guy in the room. He wanted to feel he had the jump over the other 17 clubs and at the same time on the right side of the WADA line. He probably only knew of it as thymosin. I would be surprised if anyone at Essendon knew there were different types initially.
However, he did at some stage find out that they were not compliant. I'm not sure when. It may have been very late in the piece. It may have even been after the darkest day in sport announcement. He realised at that point the enormity of what has happened at Essendon. Why else be so forthcoming and co-operative with the investigation and then try to bury the very information he was so forthcoming with?

Again, just my humble opinion of what transpired.

 

[BlueWorld]

Hopefully all this shit ends soon everyone is sick of it either asada prove essendon are guilty or get over it and let the players move on and let them concentrate on there careers and lives , to me asada have nothing and are dragging it out so they can find something to pin on the bombers

That is what is happening. The saga was dragged out by EFC going to the Federal Court.

 

[BlueWorld]

yep. I think people are putting too much faith in a guy like Dank who is not a medical professional, he was a cowboy sports scientist. By the sounds of it, not highly organised one either.

Good question. If they failed to document everything could they be confident either way?

Your club hired him.

 

[BlueWorld]

of course, like keeping signed consents describing the substances you're taking.......

Explain how they were organised enough to make fake records. but leave them inadequate, but not organised enough to hide signed evidence

Describing the substances precisely or using generic terms to try to cover themselves?

 

[BlueWorld]

I'm not saying essendon is innocent as they are most likely guilty , asada have nothing though and are just trying to force the bombers to panic and admit there guilt

Yes they have so little EFC players are trying to get as much of it as possible thrown out.

 

[Gigantor]

Yes they have so little EFC players are trying to get as much of it as possible thrown out.

Of course.

ASADA have no sworn statements.

They are not producing one single witness with any direct knowledge of the Essendon supplements program. Not one.

Rather, they have constructed a circumstantial case based on disparate SMSs and emails.

So naturally the defence will want such rubbish evidence thrown out.

It deserves to be thrown out.