AFL investigation flawed

[Dan26]

I just think that we have to assume the clubs will exist and abide under the rules. I don't think the AFL should be assuming that clubs will cheat and that they won't be able to uncover it.

It's like saying we shouldn't stirp someone of their drivers license for drink driving, because they could just keep driving, and ignore it. By your logic, we should destory their car instead.

I think, the AFL has got to have faith that their investigations can uncover, or stop any club from breaking the rules. It's been proven very difficult to cheat and get away with it. Look how many clubs have been caught. Heaps.

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Dan26
I just think that we have to assume the clubs will exist under the rules.

You can't though.

Let's say you impose a $500,000 year less salary cap next year.

Turns out in 2 years time they discover they've paid over the salary cap again.

They then say, right $750,00 a year less salary cap room next year.

2 years later, they've been found guilty once again.

Then they say, right $1million off your salary cap.

The story continues, so in other words penalties are applied, but nothing's done about it. In other words, the club in question hasn't actually been disadvantaged in any way.

This is why, we must draw the line & remove some actual bona fide priviliges. Draft selections are the harshest & therefore BEST punishment.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Savatage


You can't though.

Let's say you impose a $500,000 year less salary cap next year.

Turns out in 2 years time they discover they've paid over the salary cap again.

They then say, right $750,00 a year less salary cap room next year.

2 years later, they've been found guilty once again.

Then they say, right $1million off your salary cap.

The story continues, so in other words penalties are applied, but nothing's done about it. In other words, the club in question hasn't actually been disadvantaged in any way.

This is why, we must draw the line & remove some actual bona fide priviliges. Draft selections are the harshest & therefore BEST punishment.

Okay, if they continue to do it, fine them or strip them of picks. But the base penalty should be that they get less in the cap. Assuming they abide by the rules, it is the harshest penalty. Sure they may not abide by the rules, but it's a fair assumption that they will.

You don't invent a good new rule, and then refuse to apply that good rule, because you don't have faith in yourself to find out of clubs are cheating. That shouldn't be the basis for not using the rule.

 

[Fraser]

Originally posted by Deej
Just a simple point I want to make...

The AFL wants to investigate all teams in the next 12 months, at least that's what they've said. Lets say the next 3 teams they choose to investigate are, for example, StKilda Essendon and Brisbane.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that one of these teams could be found to have cheated the salary cap at some stage over the past 4-5 years. Let's say that it might be StKilda who have amongst other things a $500,000 rated 2nd tier HF on their books. If they have been found guilty, and Carlton are stripped of picks 1 and 2, then what is their reward for breaking the cap?

Well blow me down, they get pick 1 in this years draft and next years pre-season draft too.

Can someone please tell me how this would be fair? Admitted this is purely hypothetical but it illustrates my point that if all clubs are to be investigated with equal vigour then surely all clubs should be penalised at the same time, in the same drafts, wouldn't that just be logical in the name of fairness???

Opinions.

Dear Mr Elliot & Carlton,
I am writing to thank you for the hard hitting Aaron Hamill. His leadership is amazing, and will captain the mighty saints in 2003.
I would also like to thank you for the number #1 pick in this years draft. With out your stupidity Mr Elliot, we (St.Kilda F.C) would be minus Aaron Hamill and this years best kid in the country.
Once again, thanks!
PS: Please accept our delisted players as compensation

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Dan26


Okay, if they continue to do it, fine them or strip them of picks. But the base penalty should be that they get less in the cap. Assuming they abide by the rules, it is the harshest penalty. Sure they may not abide by the rules, but it's a fair assumption that they will.

They have continued to do it, this isn't the first time - they must be stripped of picks.

 

[Port01]

Re: Re: AFL investigation flawed

Originally posted by Fraser


Dear Mr Elliot & Carlton,
I am writing to thank you for the hard hitting Aaron Hamill. His leadership is amazing, and will captain the mighty saints in 2003.
I would also like to thank you for the number #1 pick in this years draft. With out your stupidity Mr Elliot, we (St.Kilda F.C) would be minus Aaron Hamill and this years best kid in the country.
Once again, thanks!
PS: Please accept our delisted players as compensation

Don't stop there, you can also thank your own clubs management for the mediocrity of 3 years. Wouldn't have Hamill or the prospective no.1 this year without it.

 

[Fraser]

At least St.Kilda play by the rules.

 

[Deej]

Dan, your quite an interesting character aren't you.

I agree with Savatage that slashing the cap may not work, but not for his reasons. I think it's more to do with contracts having already been signed, some long term.

Why do clubs play footy? To play finals, to win flags, right? I think the ultimate penalty would be to dock teams of premiership points ala the NRL bulldogs. That's a penalty that no-one could escape.

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Deej
Dan, your quite an interesting character aren't you.

I agree with Savatage that slashing the cap may not work, but not for his reasons. I think it's more to do with contracts having already been signed, some long term.

My points are still valid, but add those to the arguement also.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Savatage


My points are still valid, but add those to the arguement also.

You might call it living in the real world, I call it being unnecessarily negative and suspicious...I think there can be other penalties in place for those who break the cap in a year that they have had points taken away. Maybe then they can look at minimum 1 million dollar fines, more for wealthy clubs.

Another thing, what if Carlton broke the cap this year under Elliott? It wouldn't be unlikely given the injuries we had. So in 2 years time they go through our books again and we get caught and we have to lose yet more draft picks, even though the current admin had nothing to do with it?

I can just imagine the BF and general public being all up in arms - yet again Carlton cheat! scum! systematic rorting! rip their draft picks up!

You really should listen to youreselves, it's like blood in the water at pirahna central. Frenzy for the mob.

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Deej
You might call it living in the real world, I call it being unnecessarily negative and suspicious...I think there can be other penalties in place for those who break the cap in a year that they have had points taken away. Maybe then they can look at minimum 1 million dollar fines, more for wealthy clubs.

Another thing, what if Carlton broke the cap this year under Elliott? It wouldn't be unlikely given the injuries we had. So in 2 years time they go through our books again and we get caught and we have to lose yet more draft picks, even though the current admin had nothing to do with it?

I can just imagine the BF and general public being all up in arms - yet again Carlton cheat! scum! systematic rorting! rip their draft picks up!

You really should listen to youreselves, it's like blood in the water at pirahna central. Frenzy for the mob.

Deej, face reality. This isn't a CARLTON VS THE WORLD debate.

This is serious. What happens to repeat offenders? If you think repeated slap on the wrists are fine then that's your opinion, but don't get narky when the rest of us prefer action to be taken after a couple of warnings and/or slaps on the wrist. That is reality.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Deej
Another thing, what if Carlton broke the cap this year under Elliott? It wouldn't be unlikely given the injuries we had. So in 2 years time they go through our books again and we get caught and we have to lose yet more draft picks, even though the current admin had nothing to do with it?

Deej, you seem to think that by changing administration the Carlton Football Club is somehow absolved of responsibility for its previous actions. Where do you get this bizarre idea from?

If you're found out to have breached in two years time, then that is what you've done. Just having Collins in instead of Elliott doesn't change things....especially not when it means Collins has been sitting on the fact for the two seasons its taken to investigate.

Dan, the reason why draft picks are the popular punishment is because they're a victimless punishment. For example, Carlton not having access to Wells & Goddard is no great punishment for either of those lads because they weren't at Carlton in the first place.

However, if the Blues were forced to turf out current players due to a reduced cap, then you're greatly unsettling and messing with the careers of players who have done nothing more than be selected by a club that likes to dabble on the illegal side of the cap. This would cause a lot of unrest among the players of the AFL who could all see this happening to their club through no fault of their own.

You've seen first hand how a tight cap is seeing Essendon's fans and players in some distress...imagine if they weren't just trying to stay under the cap, but an additional 15% under that. Do you reckon the players that would be affected by such penalties have done anything to deserve to be shunted off to Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide or Collingwood? Its best to keep stuff like that to a minimum, I would've thought.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Savatage


Deej, face reality. This isn't a CARLTON VS THE WORLD debate.

This is serious. What happens to repeat offenders? If you think repeated slap on the wrists are fine then that's your opinion, but don't get narky when the rest of us prefer action to be taken after a couple of warnings and/or slaps on the wrist. That is reality.

Your obviously not the type of person that lends himself well to objectivity Savatage.

A million dollar fine is a slap on wrist? Loss of 10-20 premiership points is a slap on wrist? The entire reason why clubs try to improve their list is to play finals...it'll destroy everything they're working towards if you take away that opportunity.

Spose your narky on Collo with the COI as well eh Sav?

If Carlton lose the picks and the inevitable slagging arrives from the idiotic animal enclosure ferals DanWarna types from Moorabbin then I will take the stance in 3-4 years time when your mob folds that I wouldn't cross the road to p#ss on you's if you were on fire. He who laughs last laughs loudest Sav. How's your one flag mate?

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Deej

If Carlton lose the picks and the inevitable slagging arrives from the idiotic animal enclosure ferals DanWarna types from Moorabbin then I will take the stance in 3-4 years time when your mob folds that I wouldn't cross the road to p#ss on you's if you were on fire. He who laughs last laughs loudest Sav. How's your one flag mate?

You always were a complete & utter imbecile and this has proved it.

I never once pointed the finger at Carlton, it is SIMPLY a debate about what punishment ANY Football club should receive for REPEATED SYSTEMATIC SALARY CAP CHEATING.

As for the jibes to my club, I'd get offended but I don't respect you, so continue your mindless "woe is me" type ramblings, I don't care.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Savatage


You always were a complete & utter imbecile and this has proved it.

I never once pointed the finger at Carlton, it is SIMPLY a debate about what punishment ANY Football club should receive for REPEATED SYSTEMATIC SALARY CAP CHEATING.

As for the jibes to my club, I'd get offended but I don't respect you, so continue your mindless "woe is me" type ramblings, I don't care.

Don't care? Love getting the last word in tho dont ya boy.

imbecile hahaaa nice effort that.

Oh well, can I expect that this'll mean you won't be annoying me on msn anymore?

 

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Deej

Oh well, can I expect that this'll mean you won't be annoying me on msn anymore?

Mentally challenged as well, considering you added me!

Adios!

 

[evertonfc]

Originally posted by Deej
Your obviously not the type of person that lends himself well to objectivity Savatage.

A million dollar fine is a slap on wrist? Loss of 10-20 premiership points is a slap on wrist? The entire reason why clubs try to improve their list is to play finals...it'll destroy everything they're working towards if you take away that opportunity.

Spose your narky on Collo with the COI as well eh Sav?

If Carlton lose the picks and the inevitable slagging arrives from the idiotic animal enclosure ferals DanWarna types from Moorabbin then I will take the stance in 3-4 years time when your mob folds that I wouldn't cross the road to p#ss on you's if you were on fire. He who laughs last laughs loudest Sav. How's your one flag mate?

This has got to be one of the strangest posts I've ever seen on BigFooty. I'm not sure where the intellectual justification stems from, but it appears to be derived somehow from...geez even I can't fathom where.

Cmon lets be realistic here, if Carlton are found by the AFL commision to have unfairly breached the salary cap by a massive margian, then it would be criminal to let them walk away again. I know Essendon did it a few years back, but they were tiny figures in relation to the alleged sums of under-the-table cash being moved here.

I don't see Carlton's potential punishment as being 'soft' from a club perspective, because I don't feel Carlton will neccesarily pose any great threats to anyone. But a serious precedent needs to be set - to do what they have alledgedly done undermines the integrity of the salary cap and therefore undermines the rules of the game. And the thing is, they've done it before. They've had their chance to get it away with it once before; if the AFL lets them go, what message does this send to the 15 other clubs? That it is OK to rort the system in place which protects them?

I have no personal issues about the Carlton FC, and despite all the mud that's been thrown our way for years and years, I feel no need for retribution. St Kilda is looking to the future - we are not hung up on the past because we are only looking forward. Frankly, we don't have time to engage in such battles. The same attitude applies at the progressive Victorian clubs in the league right now; Bulldogs, Geelong, Kangaroos and St.Kilda. Sure, they haven't won flags aplenty, but they all recognize that they can invest in their futures. The past is past, but the future can be made bright.

Even the Bulldogs, who some may claim are a financial rabble, etc, are moving ahead in leaps and bounds. Just look at the events of the past week. Geelong has announced it's thirds succesive profit, plus a sensational upgrade to their stadium that benefits the whole communtiy. The Kangaroos are going to swamp their list with immensley talented youngsters in the upcoming draft and beyond. Sure, they may be all 'tragic' clubs but they are living for the future, not wallowing in the past.

I don't believe for a second that the serious issue of rorting the salary cap (cheating, extra-payments, etc) is a club-vs-club debate. Don't try and bend it into one, because you'll find gaping holes in your arguments already. The ammunition for your opponants is sitting right in front of them.

Defend Carlton by all means, purely on its merits. If I were a Blues fan, I'd be hoping that the AFL gives us a 'soft' penalty and that we keep the 1 & 2 picks in tact. But I wouldn't go around pointing the finger at other clubs - were they the ones cheating the system?

We don't want to get stuck into whose club will be around in 5 years either. We don't know. I don't know how Carlton are going to manage their soaring debt and the Legends Stand fiasco. But good luck to them, I hope they do fix their probelms. The league would be less for losing Carlton, as it would be losing any of its current 16 clubs.

Who will have the last laugh? Those who play by the rules.

Simple as that.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by evertonfc
Cmon lets be realistic here, if Carlton are found by the AFL commision to have unfairly breached the salary cap by a massive margian, then it would be criminal to let them walk away again. I know Essendon did it a few years back, but they were tiny figures in relation to the alleged sums of under-the-table cash being moved here.

This is the precise type of statement that gets me going. I'd like to ask what alleged sums of cash have been mooted here? I've not heard a single figure mooted anywhere actually and I reckon I here plenty of noots sorry moots. As far as I knew, no-one has mooted anything about a figure.

Your entire thread is FOS. I'm staggered at how the intellectually challenged can sometimes sound so eloquent and intelligent on the internet...not a personal comment to you everton more broad swipe at others. I've met maybe 50 people from internet footy boards and i reckon I've met 6 that I'd consider cluey. The rest are geeks, obsessive social dwarfs and basic tools.

I don't know why I bother discussing stuff with vultures.

 

[Falchoon]

Originally posted by Deej
I've met maybe 50 people from internet footy boards and i reckon I've met 6 that I'd consider cluey. The rest are geeks, obsessive social dwarfs and basic tools.

You need to broaden your horizons and meet with people other than Carlton supporters.

 

[evertonfc]

Originally posted by Deej
This is the precise type of statement that gets me going. I'd like to ask what alleged sums of cash have been mooted here? I've not heard a single figure mooted anywhere actually and I reckon I here plenty of noots sorry moots. As far as I knew, no-one has mooted anything about a figure.

Your entire thread is FOS. I'm staggered at how the intellectually challenged can sometimes sound so eloquent and intelligent on the internet...not a personal comment to you everton more broad swipe at others. I've met maybe 50 people from internet footy boards and i reckon I've met 6 that I'd consider cluey. The rest are geeks, obsessive social dwarfs and basic tools.

I don't know why I bother discussing stuff with vultures.

Well I'm glad it got you going. All revved up are? Pumped to the max? Maybe Carlton could employ me in a motivational capacity next season ;-)

(That was a joke. Any club could have been inserted there, including St.Kilda. I'm sorry if it was offensive)

If are unaware about the figures being discussed...perhaps you could Caro a call? Or Collo? Better still, give your board member, SOS a buzz.

Carlton are in a troublesome state right now. But I am not in the slightest concerned about slinging serious mud in their direction. This could well be the tip of the iceberg for the Carlton FC, but I'm not in a legitmite position to speculate about the financial and business infrastructure that has been in place and still exists within the parameters of the clubs administration. I have better places to focus my energy, and so does my club.

I hope Carlton rises again, it will be interesting to see if they can.

Equally as interesting will be if they get the punishment they deserve, or if the AFL cowers to Carlton once more.

 

[MightySaint]

Originally posted by Falchoon


You need to broaden your horizons and meet with people other than Carlton supporters.

Pay that.

 

[Fraser]

Nice sig Falchoon!

Also thank Jack for Hamill and the enjoyment of watching Carlton turn into rabble. Karmer stricks!

 

[The Phat Side]

by deej

I don't know why I bother discussing stuff with vultures

Yeah OK but please dont stop. Your persistent squealing and whining about this whole thing is fuggin hilarious. More so cos you think youre seriously debating it objectively.

There is no evidence of anything yet as far as any of us know. Sums, guilt. But nor is there any evidence of all the other crap you and other Bloo fans have been complaining about. ie AFL bending over backwards to have the investigation take place now while Bloos have picks 1 and 2 even though they have known about it for 2 years. Who said they knew about it for 2 years.? Evidence.??

Where is the evidence other teams are guilty of anything. Your opening post on this thread was about what if another club who gets your picks is breaching the cap. Is that fair you ask? Who fuggin cares. Its irrelevent cos there is no evidence of anyone else being in breach at this moment. There is no evidence of Demetriou purposefully leaking stuff to the press. There is no evidence of bloody anything other than Carlton has been charged

On the subject of fair penalties, its impossible to be objective. Its a subjective thing. Like any criminal, Carlton are subject to someone elses perception of justice. To avoid such vulnerability, one must simply work within the law and the rules. Clearly for the bloos its too late for that in this case.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by The Phat Side
...cos you think youre seriously debating it objectively...There is no evidence of anything yet as far as any of us know. Sums, guilt. But nor is there any evidence of all the other crap you and other Bloo fans have been complaining about. ie AFL bending over backwards to have the investigation take place now while Bloos have picks 1 and 2 even though they have known about it for 2 years. Who said they knew about it for 2 years.? Evidence.??

David Allison handed the AFL Fraser Brown's long service leave application form in early 2001 (i think, could've been in late 2000). Who said they didn't know about it? Well there's your evidence mate.

 

[Mossie]

Originally posted by Deej
David Allison handed the AFL Fraser Brown's long service leave application form in early 2001 (i think, could've been in late 2000). Who said they didn't know about it? Well there's your evidence mate.

And the AFL using their fortune telling abilities waited for 2002 Knowing Carlton would have Picks 1 and 2.

Can't blame the AFL for acting too quick can we?