AFL LIVE 2011 - 360, PS3 & PC - Part - 23 - READ FAQ BEFORE POSTING

[vealesy]

... if that many people even knew what footy is?

 

[HBK619]

So you want to never raise a bar or push or progress?

There's no money whatsoever in Australia? No entrepreneurs, avenues for funding? enough to turn the budget to something that will make an actual 'top' game?

The 80,000 is not a cap of possible sales. How many Australian sales for top games made elsewhere -- cods, uncharteds, etc?

BigAnt could reach those numbers too if....

Of course a bar should always be looked at getting raised.

But there's 'raising the bar' and 'we're gonna close our business'.

I've had the chat with Ross and if/when he comes in and answers your queries or whatever himself he'll tell you better than I can (seeing he owns the biggest developer in Australia right now).

Probably the best comparison I'll make right now, is LA Noire and Team Bondi. Team Bondi have spent YEARS and MILLIONS on making LA Noire, using cutting edge tech that nobody else can or has used right now. You know the problem? They will need to sell at minimum around 5 million units on each console just to make back what was spent over the copious years of development. Even then, they could still have to close their doors.

The fact of Team Bondi, is that they just went too ambitious. Spending too much on tech that at the end of the day, may not have even been needed to be used. Not only that but the years of delays and switching of publishers from Sony to Rockstar have caused money to just pour down the drain at a rate of knots that would have anyone on these boards blushing.

Sports games also remain a niche market, they can be a huge niche, but they're a niche none the less. They aren't a truly mainstream title, selling to everyone left right and centre. Generally speaking, you will see these titles selling to the one specific market of that sports audience. It's why, as big as any FIFA, NBA 2K or Madden might be, they will never reach the likes of a COD. It's a niche market and you can only sell to the audience that follows that market.

The facts that you say AFL Live COULD be a COD speaks to how much you don't really know how the market reacts and buys these titles. Why would a FIFA or NBA 2K or Madden not be a COD like seller? These sports have hundreds of millions more of an audience yet still can't break a 7 million units barrier at it's best...and in some cases barely break 3 million (NBA 2K)...a COD does 20 million without breaking a sweat. Of course, these are worldwide numbers, I couldn't give you any real figures on what exactly Australia's game sales numbers are for them, but they're relatively low still in the scheme of things.

Yes, 80,000 doesn't have to be 'the limit'. But I wasn't using it as that either, 80,000 is the 'break even' point to where Tru Blu make their money back and say yes to funding another title. And still AFL Live is potentially unlikely to make that.

And really Tru Blu is the only publisher left in Australia that will publish AFL Live. EA jumped off 10 years ago because they know that there isn't a big enough market worth pumping money into. And other publishers in Aus have dropped off considerably (I think HES/Tru Blu might be the only actual big publisher left). So no, there really isn't enough money in Australia to fund a product that would allow for some massive feature like Natural Motion (and don't get whatever I'm saying wrong, I would LOVE to see something like that...the viability just isn't there, and I want this series to continue, not die off again).

Sorry for elongating this post so much, but there's a lot of bases to cover.

 

[cbeer77]

Of course a bar should always be looked at getting raised.

But there's 'raising the bar' and 'we're gonna close our business'.

I've had the chat with Ross and if/when he comes in and answers your queries or whatever himself he'll tell you better than I can (seeing he owns the biggest developer in Australia right now).

Probably the best comparison I'll make right now, is LA Noire and Team Bondi. Team Bondi have spent YEARS and MILLIONS on making LA Noire, using cutting edge tech that nobody else can or has used right now. You know the problem? They will need to sell at minimum around 5 million units on each console just to make back what was spent over the copious years of development. Even then, they could still have to close their doors.

The fact of Team Bondi, is that they just went too ambitious. Spending too much on tech that at the end of the day, may not have even been needed to be used. Not only that but the years of delays and switching of publishers from Sony to Rockstar have caused money to just pour down the drain at a rate of knots that would have anyone on these boards blushing.

Sports games also remain a niche market, they can be a huge niche, but they're a niche none the less. They aren't a truly mainstream title, selling to everyone left right and centre. Generally speaking, you will see these titles selling to the one specific market of that sports audience. It's why, as big as any FIFA, NBA 2K or Madden might be, they will never reach the likes of a COD. It's a niche market and you can only sell to the audience that follows that market.

The facts that you say AFL Live COULD be a COD speaks to how much you don't really know how the market reacts and buys these titles. Why would a FIFA or NBA 2K or Madden not be a COD like seller? These sports have hundreds of millions more of an audience yet still can't break a 7 million units barrier at it's best...and in some cases barely break 3 million (NBA 2K)...a COD does 20 million without breaking a sweat. Of course, these are worldwide numbers, I couldn't give you any real figures on what exactly Australia's game sales numbers are for them, but they're relatively low still in the scheme of things.

Yes, 80,000 doesn't have to be 'the limit'. But I wasn't using it as that either, 80,000 is the 'break even' point to where Tru Blu make their money back and say yes to funding another title. And still AFL Live is potentially unlikely to make that.

And really Tru Blu is the only publisher left in Australia that will publish AFL Live. EA jumped off 10 years ago because they know that there isn't a big enough market worth pumping money into. And other publishers in Aus have dropped off considerably (I think HES/Tru Blu might be the only actual big publisher left). So no, there really isn't enough money in Australia to fund a product that would allow for some massive feature like Natural Motion (and don't get whatever I'm saying wrong, I would LOVE to see something like that...the viability just isn't there, and I want this series to continue, not die off again).

Sorry for elongating this post so much, but there's a lot of bases to cover.

That's a great post. I think that GG is missing the real basics on how games sell and how much they actually cost to make

 

[Exe Gesis]

I appreciate the elongated post, don't apologize for that.

The error both of you make tho is in over-stating/exaggerating what I said.

I didn't say LA Noire, or am unaware of the sales required to break even, like i don't understand business, or that you spend x means you need to sell y in order to break even, or when you can start making profit. Nor did I say investing the same resources of COD.

I said tho....get funding so as to increase budget "enough" to be able to make a game that can be a lot better than what AFL Live is, because a game of "that" standard wont cut it, wont get the sales.

My reference to COD sales in Australia was....AFL is the national game, if such a video game is of a high enough standard then sales here there's no reason why they "couldn't" aim for COD sales in Australia.

I'm suggesting to BigAnt/Ross to speak with Natural Motion, and find out what they could do, how they can team up, what kinds of costs they would be looking at etc. I dont know the exact figures and what services/efforts they could work together on, etc, and nor does anyone else who isnt BigAnt engaged in a direct conversation with Natural Motion.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Where will they get the funding from though? Who will give money away which they wont get back?

The only place I could see them getting funding is the AFL itself, and I don't see that happening.

 

[illnino]

GG, quit while your behind mate

Seriously though, of course they are going to build upon the franchise from here. It's a solid foundation for the funds available...and that's coming from someone who's actually played it

 

[Exe Gesis]

At least Biggy_Boy understands my comments. Good questions....where to get funding. That's the next step of my thinking. Contact NM, see what they can offer, do, help in, cost, work out a budget, exhaust avenues looking for funding, the AFL commission is all about spreading the development of the game, that could fall into line with them, some mining magnate?, i dunno who exactly, knock on the doors.

I'm like JFK urging to get to the moon.
Don't fight me about it, find ways to make it happen.
Im not quitting because I'm not behind.

 

[Kerrby]

Do Sony need to verify patches before it's approved?

Because the patch system hasn't been offline while the PSN is down, I've been downloading patches for a few games this month.

So.... anyone?

 

[HBK619]

So.... anyone?

Pretty sure they do.

What you were downloading would've been patches already up and in some form of system.

At any rate, I think the guys at BigAnt need to test the patch out over the DevPSN before sending it off to Sony.

 

[Kerrby]

Pretty sure they do.

What you were downloading would've been patches already up and in some form of system.

At any rate, I think the guys at BigAnt need to test the patch out over the DevPSN before sending it off to Sony.

DevPSN has been up for a few days so hopefully it'll come out soon enough.

 

[BigAntStudios]

Suggestion to BigAntStudios/Ross...

I checked out some gameplay footage of AFL Live on youtube. It's god-awful coding and very thin on player animations.
Can already see how to 'game' the game, very little to it.
The devs need to try teaming up with Natural Motion imo, that would at least make it something special.

For reference, I'm referring to Backbreaker/IceBreaker games. Tho kinda bareboned themselves, the sheer majesty of the euphoria engine for AFL would make it infinitely more interesting and playable than current engine being used.

Well that's pretty bad, considering we're talking about the #1 sport of Australia, the sport of this country, and serving 20 million population. Canada, with a similar demographic/population/etc, could produce something better, not to diss, but to push for better from here.

Part of me also looks at like this is next-gen consoles, and so a standard of games should be made for them, otherwise what's the point and point of expense.

Hopefully BigAnt finds a way then to lift the bar, get some funding, and talk with Natural Motion etc.

So you want to never raise a bar or push or progress?

There's no money whatsoever in Australia? No entrepreneurs, avenues for funding? enough to turn the budget to something that will make an actual 'top' game?

The 80,000 is not a cap of possible sales. How many Australian sales for top games made elsewhere -- cods, uncharteds, etc?

BigAnt could reach those numbers too if....

Natural Motion is more than the budget of the entire game, not even worth contemplating. Backbreaker only worked out because Midway went bust and didn't pay Natural Motion so they took the game and finished it as a playable example of their physics engine.

Your reference to "god-awful" coding is offensive and is done with no understanding of the industry.

The most games ever sold of an AFL game is 85,000 - no one is going to invest the money you talk of - ever.

DevPSN has been up for a few days so hopefully it'll come out soon enough.

Dev Net is still not up and running, the patch cannot be submitted to Sony.

 

[RU_]

So the moment PSN is up pack is out?

 

[BigAntStudios]

So the moment PSN is up pack is out?

Once it's back up we will need to test then submit, they are probably behind in testing so no idea when it will get up, as soon as I have an ETA I will post it.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Your reference to "god-awful" coding is offensive

Didn't intend to be belittle the developers, there's labor and time involved, hard work of people. But it's good that you take offense because the game is of a poor standard (obviously commensurate to the limited budget available) compared to next-gen standards and sporting titles in general (obviously commensurate to their higher budgets), and it's really not acceptable for the consumer base. People are trading in the game, not buying it, renting it for a try and then not buying it...because the consumer base demands more/better standard. It's great that there's a company out there willing to put out a title, but climb the bar. Look around at many other devs and titles that put out low standard games, the ratings they get, the dearth of sales.

The most games ever sold of an AFL game is 85,000

That's because the standard in the past has always been bad compared to the treatment other sporting titles (and genres) have been given.

no one is going to invest the money you talk of - ever.

Perhaps in Australia, which is an indictment on the industry/economy here. Still, I doubt it's impossible here either. Btw, what money did I exactly "talk of"? Did i mention a figure? How you can tell me "never" if I haven't mentioned a figure? What kind of figure do you think it is that goes from "possible" to "never". How much did it cost AFL Live? $4M? $7M? And when does the budget become a "never"? $10M? Or what? Please relate what that figure is.

Have you investigated what kind of budget one would be looking at to produce an AFL title of a standard close to Backbreaker? What figure is that? Have you discussed costs etc with Natural Motion about utilizing their engine? What is that figure? Etc. If you're going to berate me, then provide figures so that critics here can better understand.

Natural Motion was and still is a very small company too when they started. They got funding somewhere for their euphoria engine. They started off putting out the iphone app mini-game. They had a small team of devs and a small budget. They managed to get 505sports to publish the Backbreaker title. They only sold 200,000 copies but they also sold a ton on the iphone that helped bring in profit and released another iphone app, profit, then ported that to the 360 with the new Vengeance mini-game title. Stories like that tell me nothing is impossible if a bunch of people put their minds to it.

Have you heard about the self-funded Smashmouth Football Project? What he is doing is stupendously grand in scope and he's doing it all himself, with a few people here and there helping. I wonder how much he's invested?

 

[entourage]

Ross, the kind of comments being sprayed don't deserve your attention and the fact you ARE is a homage to your commitment to the quality of your product and the care for your consumers. It's not a GREAT game, no. Its not as good as madden etc. But it is a DAMN good AFL game. I love it. It has its' imperfections, Flaws etc but it is so much fun to play, and for that reason alone I'm yet to stick madden back into the ps3.

Great gameplay and a good platform for future iterations. Terrific effort

 

[RU_]

I disagree with everyone. I find no flaws. Good on ya Ross!

 

[HSSB]

GG does point out some good points but so does HBK.

The game has really been exposed without PSN being online, it shows how repetitive and boring it gets with only one season to play. The game could be so much better imo but the budget and shit I guess.

Ross, did the AFL pitch in any money towards the game?

 

[BigAntStudios]

Didn't intend to be belittle the developers, there's labor and time involved, hard work of people. But it's good that you take offense because the game is of a poor standard (obviously commensurate to the limited budget available) compared to next-gen standards and sporting titles in general (obviously commensurate to their higher budgets), and it's really not acceptable for the consumer base. People are trading in the game, not buying it, renting it for a try and then not buying it...because the consumer base demands more/better standard. It's great that there's a company out there willing to put out a title, but climb the bar. Look around at many other devs and titles that put out low standard games, the ratings they get, the dearth of sales.



That's because the standard in the past has always been bad compared to the treatment other sporting titles (and genres) have been given.



Perhaps in Australia, which is an indictment on the industry/economy here. Still, I doubt it's impossible here either. Btw, what money did I exactly "talk of"? Did i mention a figure? How you can tell me "never" if I haven't mentioned a figure? What kind of figure do you think it is that goes from "possible" to "never". How much did it cost AFL Live? $4M? $7M? And when does the budget become a "never"? $10M? Or what? Please relate what that figure is.

Have you investigated what kind of budget one would be looking at to produce an AFL title of a standard close to Backbreaker? What figure is that? Have you discussed costs etc with Natural Motion about utilizing their engine? What is that figure? Etc. If you're going to berate me, then provide figures so that critics here can better understand.

Natural Motion was and still is a very small company too when they started. They got funding somewhere for their euphoria engine. They started off putting out the iphone app mini-game. They had a small team of devs and a small budget. They managed to get 505sports to publish the Backbreaker title. They only sold 200,000 copies but they also sold a ton on the iphone that helped bring in profit and released another iphone app, profit, then ported that to the 360 with the new Vengeance mini-game title. Stories like that tell me nothing is impossible if a bunch of people put their minds to it.

Have you heard about the self-funded Smashmouth Football Project? What he is doing is stupendously grand in scope and he's doing it all himself, with a few people here and there helping. I wonder how much he's invested?

Natural Motion got their money from Lucas Arts.

Backbreaker lost 15 Million Dollars, it was only completed as Midway went out of business. Almost all of what you say is naive and non-commercial, even if you found an "investor" (who likes losing money??) you would not get a sequel made.

 

[BigAntStudios]

Ross, the kind of comments being sprayed don't deserve your attention and the fact you ARE is a homage to your commitment to the quality of your product and the care for your consumers. It's not a GREAT game, no. Its not as good as madden etc. But it is a DAMN good AFL game. I love it. It has its' imperfections, Flaws etc but it is so much fun to play, and for that reason alone I'm yet to stick madden back into the ps3.

Great gameplay and a good platform for future iterations. Terrific effort

Unfortunately I tend to agree after the last few naive posts, i won't be responding any further.

It is a good game, the best AFL game so far, and I truly believe we are on track towards the next iteration being a great one.

GG does point out some good points but so does HBK.

The game has really been exposed without PSN being online, it shows how repetitive and boring it gets with only one season to play. The game could be so much better imo but the budget and shit I guess.

Ross, did the AFL pitch in any money towards the game?

The game will get better, and every copy purchased is an investment in the future iterations.

 

[HSSB]

Unfortunately I tend to agree after the last few naive posts.



The game will get better, and every copy purchased is an investment in the future iterations.

Yeah exactly, and that is why I have told all my mates to buy the game, most of them have.

 

[nick1408]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises

In the list above there is only 12 sports games series that have sold 5 million or more. Series, not one game. If there isn't a market you cannot get funding. Football Manager has turned to in-game advertising via the pitchside hoardings to try and reclaim some cash. This is a game that consistantly tops best selling charts in Europe every year and they still do not have a massive budget. They only went to 3D animations a couple of years ago (three, I think) as they couldn't afford the technology. They also rely on hundreds of researchers to fork free of charge to help make their database of players; a database that has been sold to top teams in Europe (Everton being one) and still they do not have enough money to develop.

Sports games just do not sell enough to get the funding required. It will take years of quality releases before the funding required to do what is being suggested will be available.

I hope this game can be as big as FIFA or Madden but the reality is those games have been going since 1993 & 1988 and selling massive amounts of copies. It is goodwill like this you will need to see before companies part with money

 

[entourage]

Unfortunately I tend to agree after the last few naive posts, i won't be responding any further.

It is a good game, the best AFL game so far, and I truly believe we are on track towards the next iteration being a great one.



The game will get better, and every copy purchased is an investment in the future iterations.

Good, you should be behind it and confident. Im honest when I say I hated it at first, I still hate it at times. And why? Because I want to win. I want to get better, and with experience playing it comes tactics which open the depth of the playing mode itself. I know for a fact I have a friend who plans on buying all forms of the game (ps3, xbox, pc..) to support it.
At times it frustrates me, but they are mere kinks in an overall well thought-out project. Until madden 12 comes out it will dominate my ps3, then visa versa

 

[vealesy]

So whats the go with the in game advertising?

Did all sponsors have to chip in to be represented?

Will we ever be allowed to have an https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/account/upgrades?

 

[Beloved]

I'm sorry but that GG bloke is a flog. The only justification I have for this is in his own posts. BigAnt have created a magnificent game and I don't mean a magnificent game for the allowed budget.

That is all.

 

[El_Scorcho]

BigAnt have created a magnificent game and I don't mean a magnificent game for the allowed budget.

That is all.

Totally agree. Gameplay is paramount with something like this. Despite all the bells and whistles of previous AFL games, none has come close to being as enjoyable or lifelike to play as AFL Live 2011.