Recruiting AFL Trade & Free Agency XII - 💰💰💰

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Spoiler: 2024 Draft Order

 

[JayJ20]

This is what I mean by unfairly judged in comparison to peers his age. If using "didn't kick more than 2 in a game" for a 20 year old is your measuring stick for potential then a lot more young players wouldn't be on lists.

It's gotten to the point that people will create arbitrary standards to keep the unfair assessment alive.

How about, as a 20 year old, he averaged a goal out of every game of 2023. How many of our 20 to 21 year olds on our current list can you say that about? How many of them have ever had a season like that in the last 2 years let alone 1? Point stands.

When he doesn't have enough tricks outside of that and aren't quick, it becomes more difficult to justify keeping him on the list.

Even at that young age, good small forwards have one or two games where they take the game over and show us what they can do.

Even though he was much maligned, Nick Watson did as a first year player. Rachele kicked 5 on debut.

Malcom Rosas Jnr kicked 3 twice in his second year. Rankine, Betts, Kysaiah Pickett, even Tyson Stengle and Castagna. Most small forwards worth persisting with had a couple of games when you were like "they can win us the game and take the game apart". 4 scoring shots, 5 scoring shots, 3 or 4 goals here and there in their first couple of years. That's standard for good small forwards.

The small forward role is probably one of the most difficult roles at AFL level because you need that talent to be able to squeeze a few goals through unlike key forwards.

Menzie hasn't shown anything at that level even once in his career.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Malcom Rosas Jnr kicked 3 twice in his second year. Rankine, Betts, Kysaiah Pickett, even Tyson Stengle and Castagna.

Arbitrary. Toby Greene didn't kick more than 2 goals in a game until Round 8 of his 4th season with 59 games played before that. He kicked less goals (22) over all those 59 games before that Round 8 game than Menzie kicked in just 2023. According to you Toby wouldn't have been offered a deal.

Like I said if Menzie didn't average a goal a game with every H&A game played 12 months ago, which is something none of our other 18-21 years have managed, then I'd say another year thrown his way would've been overs, but that isn't the case.

 

[Sporno 4 Pyros]

is jack lukosius someone we'd be interested in?

Yes, but I suspect he's headed back to SA.

I haven’t seen a lot of him but there is a touch of the “Jack Watts’s” about him from some of the stuff I have read.
Not off-field more in his attack on the ball, ability to look good when things are going his way…way.

Think we need guys who will work hard when things aren’t going our way so I wouldn’t pick him up.
Might be a small chance to make it to Collingwood but Adelaide would be in the box seat.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Bunk Moreland you need to get a grip on yourself.

We're not trading Redman and Ridley and it would be absolutely stupid to do so. Yeah one has been injured a lot this year and the other a rough patch but to use that against them as if they're not quality players is the definition of a knee-jerk reaction.

In 2+ years our backline will be the most experienced part of the ground making up the 27 age mark bar maybe 2 players and an experienced defense that has worked together for multiple years is a vital requirement for the rest of the side adjusting.

The true reason our backline has struggled is the presence of Laverde, Kelly and Heppell (along with the rest of the side's inability to defend at an efficient rate yet). These 3 have handicapped it's improvement yet even with that on them and injuries to Ridley our backline as a collective was probably the only reason we didn't fall to 100 point drubbings on a regular basis from mistakes up the ground.

Most would say I’ve permanently got a grip on myself.

While that’s all very nice, are we gonna win a flag in 2 years with this experienced backline of 27yos?

If not, what’s the point in having it? To have an AA defender or two? Been there.

I’m not sure that people grasp that this list isn’t gonna contend for a flag. It’s not good enough.

So the next wave? We now have a big gap in elite young talent due to terrible high-end drafting over the past five years (some bad picks, some bad luck).

Youngsters are our only chance of building toward a flag, because our mature guys clearly aren’t good enough.

So we need to trade some of them to try to get some elite youth that can pair with Caddy, Martin, Durham, Caldwell etc and hopefully build an elite list. While keeping some older bodies and experience around (Merrett, McGrath, Langford, McKay etc).

 

[Call Me Cake]

I’m not sure that people grasp that this list isn’t gonna contend for a flag. It’s not good enough.

That's your opinion and I disagree. I think the list is good enough to develop and add to in order to compete in finals (not just make it), and then push for top four thereafter.

Having said that, it's just an opinion, like yours.

Most teams don't actually go on to win flags, it's rare to achieve, sometimes there can be a 8 year period where only 4 teams out of 18 win it (Hawks in 2013, 14, 15, Dogs in 16, Tigers in 17, Eagles in 18, Tigers in 19, 20) so it's not something that's easy to predict and the odds are more in the favour of those who say there won't be a premiership, but our main priority as a club right now is to get back to being competitive on a regular basis/be dependable then hopefully building a culture of contention from there.

 

[JayJ20]

Arbitrary. Toby Greene didn't kick more than 2 goals in a game until Round 8 of his 4th season with 59 games played before that. He kicked less goals (22) over all those 59 games before that Round 8 game than Menzie kicked in just 2023. According to you Toby wouldn't have been offered a deal.

Like I said if Menzie didn't average a goal a game with every H&A game played 12 months ago, which is something none of our other 18-21 years have managed, then I'd say another year thrown his way would've been overs, but that isn't the case.

Who says Toby Greene was playing as small forward? He started off as a mid.

Toby Greene finished his first year off with 35, 31, 38, 34 and 38 disposals. Doesn't sound like a small forward to me.

So yeah, Toby Greene did show something elite in his very first year.

We have way too many of the same type of small forward and I think Menzie should have made way.

 

[dnbassador]

Could get a multiclub deal going that lands us Davies and Rosas Jnr and gets Hobbs somewhere.

Why is Hobbs going?

 

[Rick Ross]

I mean you're the one referencing the saga as if what happened then should influence decisions we make on players now. And I'll say it again - Collingwood pushed out gun players on long contracts who publicly lamented that they didn't want to go. How did that work out for them? Did the remaining players underperform? Did it kill their culture? Did they struggle to attract players from other clubs afterwards?

Basically you're arguing against it from a theoretical standpoint when, while it might be a solid theory, you have a practical example right in front of you that flies directly in its face.

I’m going to do the BF 2+2=7 exercise here.

We don’t know Collingwood didn’t get impacted by the forced trading. They have had a few un-destination club departures since then.

• 2024 John Noble
• 2023 Traitor (damn auto correct) Adams
• 2023 Jack Gininivan
• 2022 Oliver Henry

Plus DeGoey wasn’t enamoured with the place.

 

[eth-dog]

Clubs can work on multiple contracts at once Eth. I highly doubt Jye's was complicated.

The point of highlighting September was even though he had a reasonable season, the club was still patient. It made zero sense to go early this year.

You are not "clearly part of the plan" if the club is publicly shopping around for your replacement and your deal gets done as soon as option A says no.

You are also not "clearly part of the plan" after a disaster season going at 0.2 goals a game.

You are also, also not "clearly part of the plan" if you're a fringe player getting dropped repeatedly.

Yes they can and often do, but they generally prioritise contracts for players who they want to sign long term before one year deals. Most clubs do this in fact.

I think re-signing someone mid season despite having a poor year indicates that they're part of the plan for next year. Do you that Brad would have no input either? If he had a problem with it he would have said to hold off as you think we should have. That to me says he would have been re-signed regardless of whether or not Ainsworth was going to come.

You don't want him to be "clearly part of the plan". I think that he is clearly part of the plan for next year because despite all of your reasons why you think he shouldn't be, he was re-signed mid season. They wouldn't have done so if he wasn't.

 

[Beerfish]

This thread is whack

 

[dank420_]

Lock it

 

[faible]

This thread is whack

Beery after another day of modding BF:

 

[Bunk Moreland]

That's your opinion and I disagree. I think the list is good enough to develop and add to in order to compete in finals (not just make it), and then push for top four thereafter.

Having said that, it's just an opinion, like yours.

Most teams don't actually go on to win flags, it's rare to achieve, sometimes there can be a 8 year period where only 4 teams out of 18 win it (Hawks in 2013, 14, 15, Dogs in 16, Tigers in 17, Eagles in 18, Tigers in 19, 20) so it's not something that's easy to predict and the odds are more in the favour of those who say there won't be a premiership, but our main priority as a club right now is to get back to being competitive on a regular basis/be dependable then hopefully building a culture of contention from there.

Part of my desire to see something more aggressive is we’ve been treading water now for a few years. We really don’t know where we are at.

We had pretty major change at the end of 2020. It felt like we accepted that the top-up approach had failed. We had a change of coach, we finally had to accept Daniher wasn’t interested and was leaving.

Expectations were very low for 2021. We ended up having a decent year, winning 11 games. Our list was ranked 15th in age and 17th in experience. We were having a decent crack and it seemed like a good base.

Perkins played 21 games, Cox played 22, Jones played 16. Ridley was already a star at 22yo, McGrath was a solid footballer at the same age, Redman and Parish were 23yo and really coming on, and we’d landed a still-young Wright for a bargain.

Then it stopped.

I can accept an off year etc, it’s not all linear etc etc etc… but we’ve now had three full seasons since and we have not improved one bit.

It’s done.

Can we really just sit here for another couple of years, adding a couple of players here and there, and think it’s going to suddenly come good and well shoot up the ladder?

No way, imo. We’ve totally stalled for three seasons. We’ve tried changing coach, again, and it hasn’t helped. They haven’t improved under two years of Scott.

I’m not suggesting a nuclear rebuild where we trade absolutely everybody we have of any value… but it’s time for a very aggressive reset. Keep the leaders and a few solid performers and go hard on turning the rest over.

I was a bit more confident it might happen with Dodoro out of the picture - I maintain his problem was that he didn’t build for flag pushes… rather, he collected players. Perhaps after the drug saga, when so many predicted a mass exodus but most stayed, he became too hyper focused on retaining our players and never letting anybody go, rather than trying to build for a flag.

 

[Beerfish]

Lock it

Only if we trade it to Hawthorne for nothing.

(I would do this trade btw)

 

[DERO]

Imagining petracca in the midfield along with merrett, durham and cadwell is making me wet

He is damaged goods and a huge risk. It is probably better someone else takes that risk and we focus on plugging the holes on our list.

 

[VelvetSledge]

Beery after another day of modding BF:

Our secret is to be dead inside before you accept the role

 

[Howard Moon]

DERO thoughts on Menzie?

 

[DERO]

He ain’t flash.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Most would say I’ve permanently got a grip on myself.

While that’s all very nice, are we gonna win a flag in 2 years with this experienced backline of 27yos?

If not, what’s the point in having it? To have an AA defender or two? Been there.

I’m not sure that people grasp that this list isn’t gonna contend for a flag. It’s not good enough.

So the next wave? We now have a big gap in elite young talent due to terrible high-end drafting over the past five years (some bad picks, some bad luck).

Youngsters are our only chance of building toward a flag, because our mature guys clearly aren’t good enough.

So we need to trade some of them to try to get some elite youth that can pair with Caddy, Martin, Durham, Caldwell etc and hopefully build an elite list. While keeping some older bodies and experience around (Merrett, McGrath, Langford, McKay etc).

are you calling yourself a w***er?

 

[Test Tickle]

Yes please! Malcom Rosas is the type of small forward we need on our list alongside Kako.

Hopefully it means we can stop this Owies talk.

OWIES ???

WTF...YUK

 

[ghostdog]

And I disagree. Us re-signing him at that point indicates that we were going to do so regardless.

Or, we were always going to re-sign him and we agreed to the terms of the deal already and signed him.

You don't rate him so by your logic, if xyz had happened then we wouldn't have re-signed him. Because of your perception of him as a player.

Does he? In the 5 VFL games Jye played this year (one of which was off half back, mind) he had 1, 0, 2, 2 and 3 goals and Jayden 3, 0, 0, 1 and 0. Jayden kicked less goals than games played this year too.

He had a bad year. As soon as any player who's played seniors fairly regularly has a bad year yhis board jump up and down and act crazy.

Re-signing him that early also probably gives him a necessary boost of confidence coming into pre-season. If we were going to re-sign him anyway, which the early re-signing indicates, why put it off?

Resigning him mid year was premature because there was still half a season to go and a lot of football to see, from Menzie and others, before a decision needed to be made. That we had already decided by the half way point is actually the dumb part. You thinking we were going to do so regardless doesn't diminish the prematurity of the decision.

Re: giving him a confidence boost, that's a fugazi. If he gets signed he gets signed. Confidence boost happens because he gets signed. That can be at season's end. More to the point though, we shouldn't be signing a player because we think they could use a confidence boost. If any premise for signing is dumb, it's that. The player should take confidence because they're playing good footy. Menzie hasn't played good footy long enough now for me to say nope. I hope we're done.

Re: jumping up and down like crazy, that's some whacky crazy hyperbole. We're not a good side because we have plodders on the list. Menzie's ceiling is clear enough to me. We have an opportunity to go for Rosas (surprise surprise, at season's end) and we look like landing Kako. I'd like to not now have the albatross of Menzie's premature and unnecessary contract hanging round our necks in the face of that opportunity, but here we are. Doesn't make me crazy. Makes me pragmatic.

 

[Vindicater]

Langford Jones Durham
Kako Caddy Rosas

Forward line with Durham having bursts through the middle and replaced by a resting mid.

Durham/Langford/Jones licence to push up the ground and be marking option.

Caddy and the two smalls to own the forward fifty.

 

[cAsEy_18]

What are people’s thoughts on the timing of the Menzie re-signing?

Or if you’re feeling particularly rebellious, thoughts on the Menzies re-signing?

 

[ghostdog]

I don't hate the player but does he play in our side?

I don't mean does he have a spot and should he play,

it's will our coaches select him in his proper position.
Or does he play a bulk of VFL and when he does play they stick him on a flank or as sub?

Look, it's a good question that I can't answer. I guess it goes to how they evaluate their use of Setterfield and whether they want to use that role again.

I thought early in the year when he was part of the rotation, we looked much harder through the middle. Had he remained fit, we likely could have preserved Calders and Duz a bit more, and gitten more consistency from them in the back end of the year.

So I suppose if we still have a taller big mid in mind as part of the rotation then we could pencil him in as a starter, yes.

I know Hobbs and Tsatas are thereabouts too, but there's nothing wrong with comp for spots, and Davies offers longevity even in that aspect of what we need. It's a no brainer for me. I'd look to replace Setters with Davies.

Caveat: I'm probably likely to say a lot of shit like this at the moment. It's that time of year. The bottom line is, I want to hit the draft. If we can get a needed role filled by an AFL standard player without endangering our draft hand, I'd support that.

 

[Howard Moon]

I know I don't like Hawthorn much but I try to be objective...reckon it's pretty shit that an opposition coach can be in the ear of your player all year, while technically still a contracted player. If the scribes are right not only has Mitchell been in battles ear for 8 months, his wife has been doing the same to battles partner. He was also in Massimos ear for months while he was still an Essendon player. Hope the little turd gets his karma eventually and no club deals with the snake and the club