Racing All Star Mile 2020

[TBellicious]

Both Alizee and SOJ will beat him home comfortably if they contest the ASM - thankfully he won't be in there clogging up the field.

I'll be happy to have a side bet with you there.

 

[AvantGardener]

Gotcha.

If you could kindly point out any Gp 1 1600m WFA losses he has had in Aus to support this that would be great. Given he has had 4 runs over the mile here for 3 wins and a Gp 2 WFA second I suspect they'll be limited.

Having also won the Carlyon Cup over a mile and a Gp2 over 1800m both at Caulfield on good tracks there's some Vic wins on the dry as well

Wow he beat Sikandarabad and Nights Watch in a Carlyon Cup. How is this any different to Fierce Impact beating Nights Watch in the Toorak than carrying more weight and thrashing him in the Cantala?

He also got beat by Samadoubt by 3lengths in a WFA 1600m G2 race.

A BM91 doesnt count in this conversation.

So one win in Sydney wet over a horse who barely qualifies as Gp1 Handicapper.

 

[AvantGardener]

no he wouldnt or he would have done it by now. But he can’t because he is a handicapper as evidenced by the fact he ran in the bill Ritchie HANDICAP on that day and couldn’t win despite getting weight from the likes of WFA superstar Tally!!

#ohdear

2nd to Kolding who was the form horse of the Sydney Spring. Of course they would start him in a weaker HCP on the back of his form to that point. He went to another level in the Spring though. Hence they started him 1st up in a WFA Gp1 this time around.

Kolding is the horse that beat Dreamforce by 10 lengths even though Dreamforce is supposedly great Gp1 WFA form for Avilous.

 

[iluvparis]

2nd to Kolding who was the form horse of the Sydney Spring. Of course they would start him in a weaker HCP on the back of his form to that point. He went to another level in the Spring though. Hence they started him 1st up in a WFA Gp1 this time around.

Errr that was the Spring so I am not sure how he went to another level

So second to another restricted grade/handicapper who he RECEIVED weight from

The real WFA horse finished closer to Kolding despite being 5KG worse off at the weights in the Epsom than old battling HANDICAPPER FI

The only All Star Mile that FI belongs in are with the **** where his tally of WFA wins is

 

[AvantGardener]

Errr that was the Spring so I am not sure how he went to another level

So second to another restricted grade/handicapper who he RECEIVED weight from

The real WFA horse finished closer to Kolding despite being 5KG worse off at the weights in the Epsom than old battling HANDICAPPER FI

The only All Star Mile that FI belongs in are with the **** where his tally of WFA wins is

They picked his 1st up race based on his previous form. From that start he went to another level. He wasn't even a Gp1 HCP until last Spring.

What horse are you talking about being 5kg off worse in the Epsom?

The only thing that has stopped FI being a WFA Gp1 winner in a 3yo. In this current climate FI is a WFA miler. Name a field of 12 better than him.

 

[FallingLiefs]

Avilius is a good horse (I still think probably our best over further despite being against him last week!). At the moment we don't really have that horse that is an outlier and consistently better than everything, what we have is a bunch of inconsistent WFA horses making to form look ugly when they don't go to their top. The tier below is OK and acceptable G1 depth level but they're winning too many G1s because the very top is so inconsistent.

Nature Strip, Avilius, Santa Ana Lane and so on

 

[iluvparis]

They picked his 1st up race based on his previous form. From that start he went to another level. He wasn't even a Gp1 HCP until last Spring.

What horse are you talking about being 5kg off worse in the Epsom?

The only thing that has stopped FI being a WFA Gp1 winner in a 3yo. In this current climate FI is a WFA miler. Name a field of 12 better than him.

Te Akau Shark is the horse

You might want to look at the 10 horses in the Doomben Cup that stopped him being a WFA winner too - some real champions of the turf there.

I don't have to name 12 - there is only 3 wildcards and I've named the horses that should get him over him already

 

[TBellicious]

done. $50 quaddie on day 2 championships?

Ok done. He’ll beat em both home (if they get in)

 

[TBellicious]

I see Super Seth has snuck into the top 10.
Based on his first up run and the dominance the 3year olds are having in open age races, I think he’ll be right in the race.

 

[AvantGardener]

Te Akau Shark is the horse

You might want to look at the 10 horses in the Doomben Cup that stopped him being a WFA winner too - some real champions of the turf there.

I don't have to name 12 - there is only 3 wildcards and I've named the horses that should get him over him already

Yeah agree Te Akau Shark is a WFA horse. Hes the premium at the moment. It doesn't mean any horse just below him isn't a WFA quality horse though.

Fiecre Impact from the Spring and now is a different horse to the Doomben Cup. Totally irrelevant. First Seal is better than Winx too....

I didn't join the argument about wildcards. I only joined the argument about FI being better than a handicapper.

 

[AvantGardener]

Avilius is a good horse (I still think probably our best over further despite being against him last week!). At the moment we don't really have that horse that is an outlier and consistently better than everything, what we have is a bunch of inconsistent WFA horses making to form look ugly when they don't go to their top. The tier below is OK and acceptable G1 depth level but they're winning too many G1s because the very top is so inconsistent.

Nature Strip, Avilius, Santa Ana Lane and so on

Yeah I'm not here to put Avilius down. All I'm saying is FI last four starts are ahead or at least equal of where Avilius is at at the moment. Avilius up to that point head and shoulders above but not last Spring and seemingly not now in the Autumn.

 

[FallingLiefs]

Yeah I'm not here to put Avilius down. All I'm saying is FI last four starts are ahead or at least equal of where Avilius is at at the moment. Avilius up to that point head and shoulders above but not last Spring and seemingly not now in the Autumn.

Hey mate I am in front row to the Fierce Impact show, been talking him up for a while now. Redzel elevated out of B grade form 2 years back. Santa Ana Lane the year later. It can be done, there's always question marks on sustainability for older horses in what seems like a rich vein of form, most of the time they don't continue but very happy to see him resume like that on weekend.

I think I said at time, his Cantala on times was not far off the Empire Rose/Myer Classic of Melody Belle MB much nicer run of course but getting fair bit of value about it.

 

[iluvparis]

Yeah agree Te Akau Shark is a WFA horse. Hes the premium at the moment. It doesn't mean any horse just below him isn't a WFA quality horse though.

Fiecre Impact from the Spring and now is a different horse to the Doomben Cup. Totally irrelevant. First Seal is better than Winx too....

I didn't join the argument about wildcards. I only joined the argument about FI being better than a handicapper.

Sure he is - 6yo stallion just improving out of nowhere as if he has been impregnated on the beach by both Weir and Smith #seemslegit

#handicapper

 

[iluvparis]

Yeah I'm not here to put Avilius down. All I'm saying is FI last four starts are ahead or at least equal of where Avilius is at at the moment. Avilius up to that point head and shoulders above but not last Spring and seemingly not now in the Autumn.

Avi's spring win >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything FI has ever or will ever do

 

[AvantGardener]

Sure he is - 6yo stallion just improving out of nowhere as if he has been impregnated on the beach by both Weir and Smith #seemslegit

#handicapper

Wow you're really denying FI didn't go to another level this Spring and so far this Autumn?

Spring 2018 beaten in BM 88s. Autumn 2019 beaten in Ajax, Scone Cup, Doomben Cup.

Spring 2019 2x Gp1 wins and a 2nd to Epsom winner. If thats not going to another level I'll be damned.

 

[iluvparis]

Running second to an Epsom winner getting weight of that winner who subsequently carried 50.5 in that Epsom is not that impressive.

He followed it up with a couple of nice handicap wins which is right in his wheelhouse as a handicapper

 

[AvantGardener]

Avi's spring win >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything FI has ever or will ever do

Wow he got a wet track in Syd when the only Gp1 horse in the race was a pensioner. Did you see how far Dreamforce got beat the next start? Really franked that form.

 

[AvantGardener]

Running second to an Epsom winner getting weight of that winner who subsequently carried 50.5 in that Epsom is not that impressive.

He followed it up with a couple of nice handicap wins which is right in his wheelhouse as a handicapper

So did he improve in the Spring or not?

He carried 56kg and won so he is better than just a handicapper. Best of Days is just a handicapper hence beaten 3lengths in the Cantala. Fierce Impact is a bit better than that.

 

[iluvparis]

Wow he got a wet track in Syd when the only Gp1 horse in the race was a pensioner. Did you see how far Dreamforce got beat the next start? Really franked that form.

Shows you how poor of a WFA horse FI is I guess that he can't get near that kind of performance

 

[iluvparis]

So did he improve in the Spring or not?

He carried 56kg and won so he is better than just a handicapper. Best of Days is just a handicapper hence beaten 3lengths in the Cantala. Fierce Impact is a bit better than that.

Best Of Days was winning Cantala's when FI was running around in BM races - just face it mate - anyone that can read a basic form guide can tell he is an out and out handicapper.

Who has more placings at WFA of the two?

#wellthisisawkward

 

[AvantGardener]

Best Of Days was winning Cantala's when FI was running around in BM races - just face it mate - anyone that can read a basic form guide can tell he is an out and out handicapper.

Who has more placings at WFA of the two?

#wellthisisawkward

Classic dodge on the has FI improved question!

Not doubting Avilius and Best of Days better horses over the journey but right now FI is better than Best of Days and around level with Avilius. Remember First Seal was better than Winx as well at one point.

Which horse ran 0.3m 2nd in a WFA last start??? Hint it wasnt Avi or Best of Days.

 

[iluvparis]

Classic dodge on the has FI improved question!

Not doubting Avilius and Best of Days better horses over the journey but right now FI is better than Best of Days and around level with Avilius. Remember First Seal was better than Winx as well at one point.

Which horse ran 0.3m 2nd in a WFA last start??? Hint it wasnt Avi or Best of Days.

No reasonable form analyst could suggest he is anywhere near the level of Avi

Basing entire form references of one race is completely laughable - especially when people who actually have a clue have rated the Orr well below standard G1 level.

In that case I'll choose the Doomben Cup as my one race form analyst when he was flogged by the likes of Sixties Groove.

 

[AvantGardener]

No reasonable form analyst could suggest he is anywhere near the level of Avi

Basing entire form references of one race is completely laughable - especially when people who actually have a clue have rated the Orr well below standard G1 level.

In that case I'll choose the Doomben Cup as my one race form analyst when he was flogged by the likes of Sixties Groove.

Duck and weave did FI improve in Spring 2019?

Not basing it on one race, the Orr just confirmed he has come back the horse he was in the Spring when he carried just about topweight and won a Gp1 HCP which makes him better than just a handicapper. The horses he beat like Best of Days are just a handicapper. By winning he shown he is better than those just a handicapper type of horses. BGTYM is a handicapper, hence soundly beaten in the Orr. FI is better than a handicapper hence running 2nd.

How did Avi go in this below standard G1? It was a much stronger race than Avis Gp1 in the Spring. SOJ, Hey Doc, FI, Kings Will Dream >>>>>> Dreamforce, Pensioner, Verry Ellegant.

Would Fierce Impact beat Dreamforce at level weights?

 

[iluvparis]

Nah he is probably running to the same level he did when well held in the All Aged - its just easier for him to win in handicaps. Anyway convo is going around in circles - not wasting time if you keep saying BOD is a handicapper despite having a far superior WFA record to your camel.

come back to me when he wins a WFA race.

 

[FallingLiefs]

Am I missing something BoD has placed 3rd in a weak Kingston Town as his only G1 WFA placing.

FI has already placed in a Melbourne WFA G1?

BoD won a Cantala with minimum. When handicapped appropriately he couldn't get within 3L of FI or win a weak railway with every conceivable chance. Ones a dual G1 winner, the other singular.

 

[AvantGardener]

Nah he is probably running to the same level he did when well held in the All Aged - its just easier for him to win in handicaps. Anyway convo is going around in circles - not wasting time if you keep saying BOD is a handicapper despite having a far superior WFA record to your camel.

come back to me when he wins a WFA race.

How does Best of Days have a better Gp1 WFA record than FI?