All things Politics

[Antz]

I’m sure that will be of great comfort to the 0 living family members of hers

Let’s pray for the remaining Israeli hostages.


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[sr36]

I would argue Communism is not an inherently nationalist theory, unlike fascism. Nationalism is an extension of Alienation.

There are additional differences - fascisms obsession with tradition and opposition to progress, no internal criticism (where as Communism is entirely made up of in-fighting!), etc.

Palingenetic ultranationalism is a term I’ve seen used that sums up fascism pretty well.

Not externally competitive nationalist, but internally nationalist - everyone is meant to subjugate their interests for the interests of the nation. The glory of the nation is at the heart of both. So they can very easily take on the same appearance even though the ideologies were opposite in terms of social hierarchy.

 

[Markfs]

I’m sure that will be of great comfort to the 0 living family members of hers

her mother survived.....she had a period of a week or so when she didnt know what happened to her daughter, but the israelis came to her rescue as israeli soldiers often do. There's something inherently moral about them...

 

[Markfs]

This is actually a true story - Evidently there are 34 women and children who are australian citizens who unfortunately allowed the men in their families to take them to join the IS in Syria some years back.

They are living in tents in a prison compound. Sons and fathers and husbands are in jail, but they havent been charged with anything. They have been led to believe that they would be repatriated by Albo when Labor was in opposition, but apparently Dutton is shaking his cage and the now Labor gov't has decided to leave them there.

Ironically, the US has repatriated their own, because that's what Americans do. Just as Australian govts seem to leave Australians in overseas prisons. It seems to be something that we do. We are inherently gutless. Maybe its in the water or maybe its our convict background.

The story is told on Dateline on SBS.

 

[Markfs]

Let’s pray for the remaining Israeli hostages.


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unfortunately, i have no god and dont know how to pray. I'm sure that the israelis are narrowing the search. Either that or the israeli strategies will force hamas to release them.

 

[sideswipe]

Well you were quite happy to put up counter arguments to what I said by attempting to stop me putting my point about Israel killing Innocent civilians in all sorts of evil means.If as you claim where have you shown support for Israel,why don,t you condemn them for some things they are doing.

Both “sides” deserve condemnation for the bloodshed. Do you condemn Hamas as well?


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[gouki88]

Not externally competitive nationalist, but internally nationalist - everyone is meant to subjugate their interests for the interests of the nation. The glory of the nation is at the heart of both. So they can very easily take on the same appearance even though the ideologies were opposite in terms of social hierarchy.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, but I think it gets back to the point of Communism being defined by its in-fighting. Marx was explicitly anti-nationalist, as are many theorists who have followed - but some believe nationalism to be a force for pushing for broader societal change.

Nationalism and the Proletarian Revolution

www.marxists.org

 

[sr36]

I'm not sure that I agree with this, but I think it gets back to the point of Communism being defined by its in-fighting. Marx was explicitly anti-nationalist, as are many theorists who have followed - but some believe nationalism to be a force for pushing for broader societal change.

Nationalism and the Proletarian Revolution

www.marxists.org

The ideology and economy is very different, but I think the similarities in reality was that they both went all in on similar methods with a goal of putting individual's interests below the glory of the nation.

But more simply than that fascism has become a synonym for authoritarianism.

 

[Markfs]

Here's an interesting youtube show about israel and gaza. I dont know the politics behind it but some very interesting videos are shown within it.

 

[gouki88]

i even had a quick read of your link, but i saw a lot of lenin and stalin quotes and i'm not sure those guys knew anything about communism

Lenin was a much more interesting theorist than Stalin, who was a dolt

 

[sr36]

Lenin was a much more interesting theorist than Stalin, who was a dolt

The thing with the two ideologies that tried to put self interest below the purported collective interest is that they didn't get there because its unnatural, so what you're left with is their attempts to get there - pretty similar methods.

I reckon religion has been a more effective ideology at getting and keeping recruits as it tries to align self interest with collective interests.

 

[gouki88]

The thing with the two ideologies that tried to put self interest below the purported collective interest is that they didn't get there because its unnatural, so what you're left with is their attempts to get there - pretty similar methods.

I reckon religion has been a more effective ideology at getting and keeping recruits as it tries to align self interest with collective interests.

Don't think I agree with that framing of self-interest. It's why there are plenty of examples of non-totalitarian societies where that sort of 'rational actor' individualism is not triumphant.

 

[Markfs]

The thing with the two ideologies that tried to put self interest below the purported collective interest is that they didn't get there because its unnatural, so what you're left with is their attempts to get there - pretty similar methods.

I reckon religion has been a more effective ideology at getting and keeping recruits as it tries to align self interest with collective interests.

have a think about tribal relationships.....such as aboriginal...and tell me that individual greed is so natural to humans. It would seem to me that collective interest worked for about a million years and we've been using the individual greed model for a couple of hundred and I dont think humanity will last another hundred if it continues in its present form.

 

[sr36]

Don't think I agree with that framing of self-interest. It's why there are plenty of examples of non-totalitarian societies where that sort of 'rational actor' individualism is not triumphant.

I'm not using self interest as a negative. Putting self, family, close acquaintances before others is just innate. They were two ideologies that asked you to put the nation as a whole on a platform sitting above yourself and those that you're close to. The US's brand of capitalism on the other hand taps self interest - and can go too far the other way - without consideration for the community outside of your circle - the nation as a whole - other nations, etc.

 

[sr36]

have a think about tribal relationships.....such as aboriginal...and tell me that individual greed is so natural to humans. It would seem to me that collective interest worked for about a million years and we've been using the individual greed model for a couple of hundred and I dont think humanity will last another hundred if it continues in its present form.

The collective was a small family group - a herd - not millions or billions of strangers. I'm not talking about greed - I'm talking about preference for those you have a connection to. THose small circles of connection can interlock into much larger groups, but the first preference is the family group. Interlocking groups that can get bigger and bigger. People need to see the collective though for those groups to expand. We give a shit when an Australian aid worker is killed but not the UNRWA ones that were killed earlier in the war, because many view the circles as interlocking to the borders of Australia. Some see them interlocking further - global humanitarianism versus nationalism - but they'll always still put their family first.

 

[Markfs]

well i think about the efficient use of resources, i think about a thousand individuals in a suburb owning a mower that they use for an hour every couple of weeks....add to that whipper snippers......and is the use of cars efficient? I reckon a parking lot with a few cars in each suburb could probably cater for the requirements on using a car for a holiday or going to a hospital on the other side of the city....I think about the amount of time that cars are just parked and doing nothing....and so individual ownership is efficient? How about the use of private swimming pools......efficient? Mindless overuse of resources spent on making stuff that ends up in cupboards doing nuttin....thank god for capitalism

 

[Markfs]

The collective was a small family group - not millions including strangers. I'm not talking about greed - I'm talking about about preference for those you have a close connection to.

well these groups worked with other groups and traded etc. Not that it was utopia because humans are inherently aggressive and greedy ...

but I still think selfishness was a learned behaviour.....

and you're not talking about greed? I thought you were talking about capitalism where millions of people own millions of dollars and yet a significant number have virtually nothing. Is zuckerberg greedy? Could he get by with a million dollars less?

 

[sr36]

well these groups worked with other groups and traded etc. Not that it was utopia because humans are inherently aggressive and greedy ...

but I still think selfishness was a learned behaviour.....

and you're not talking about greed? I thought you were talking about capitalism where millions of people own millions of dollars and yet a significant number have virtually nothing. Is zuckerberg greedy? Could he get by with a million dollars less?

I've added more to my previous post.

What I didn't add was that those groups often warred and battled with other groups that they didn't feel a connection with.

I'm not talking about greed - I'm not so catholicised regarding the 7 deadly sins - I see them as natural and thus evolved in us for survival - not things that can completely repressed.

 

[Markfs]

capitalism is good for doing what it is designed to do....making copious amounts of stuff. It has the by product of making a minority rich at the expense of others who do the work - this is where marx comes in. I havent read much of anything in my life....least of all marx....but I thought he gave an accurate description of capitalism but didnt have much of clue about how to successfully implement his communism. Those that own capital....and those who work for it.....the two groups....and as the inefficient social security systems are being stripped away, the starkness of the two groups is becoming more apparent. Thank god I'm a capitalist and I dont have to work.

 

[Mauvais Cheval]

Explains a lot. I wonder if he is into those horse hair thingies.

That would explain the covetous glances at my tail

 

[Markfs]

I've added more to my previous post.

What I didn't add was that those groups often warred and battled with other groups that they didn't feel a connection with.

I'm not talking about greed - I'm not so catholicised regarding the 7 deadly sins - I see them as natural and thus evolved in us for survival - not things that can completely repressed.

yes i was made into a catholic.....just as many are made into capitalists by catering to their greed. I think of it more like ying and yang....and we have catered a little too much to the yang (is that the negative one) a little too much.

but as i've said, I'm a capitalist. I revel in the greed. I have no desire to give it back. I consume in response to most of my whims. I eat scotch fillet at least once a week. I never budget or conserve. I'm pleased with this selfish life...

 

[Markfs]

Mark is a Catholic fundamentalism. He views the other churches as non Christian infidels.

people have told me that i remind them of mel gibson....

 

[sr36]

yes i was made into a catholic.....just as many are made into capitalists by catering to their greed. I think of it more like ying and yang....and we have catered a little too much to the yang (is that the negative one) a little too much.

but as i've said, I'm a capitalist. I revel in the greed. I have no desire to give it back. I consume in response to most of my whims. I eat scotch fillet at least once a week. I never budget or conserve. I'm pleased with this selfish life...

Neither is viewed as negative. They are both needed to complete the circle. But yes they're meant to be in balance. And I agree with you that they're out of whack.

 

[noideaatall]

but I still think selfishness was a learned behaviour

How you see this? Selfishness has an obvious evolutionary advantage for individual gene.

You seem to be caught up in the noble savage, past utopia concept when all the history of human evolution suggests competition.

 

[Markfs]

How you see this? Selfishness has an obvious evolutionary advantage for individual gene.

You seem to be caught up in the noble savage, past utopia concept when all the history of human evolution suggests competition.

i wrote that in passing...quickly.... i meant to say over-indulged selfishness...

we obviously focus on self-preservation.

good to know that you're reading and taking notes, noidea. Surely you know by now that i'm a broad brush kinda person. For example, I skimmed a couple of paragraphs of the link in the gouki post on the last page and it sent my mind drifting. In short, I dont post agonising over each word. I often correct and rewrite after i post. I got other things to do in life like count my money....

I thank god each day that I live in a country where i can live off the backs of workers and I dont get bombed in my house