All things Politics

[JB1975]

Sadly JB the Senator's words give a clear insight into some of her thinking....

View attachment 2038329

It's tough to remember to say Israeli or Zionist when you are under the pump.

What insight did you get?

 

[ZEV]

What insight did you get?

Israel = Jews
"from the river to the sea"

 

[JB1975]

Israel = Jews
"from the river to the sea"

No mate. She said that the issue isn't 'Jewish v Muslim'.

It was a comment designed to take the ethnic and religious elements from the discussion, to say that the issue for her has nothing to do with being a Muslim.

It's about decency.

Maybe give that some thought before trying to distort her comments.

 

[Markfs]

Stepping away from a morally rancid isn't always easy to do. All the best to Fatima.

Someone should ask the Israelis about whether they are being guided by god by building settlements on the West Bank.....or whether he guides their bombs in Gaza.....

 

[JB1975]

Someone should ask the Israelis about whether they are being guided by god by building settlements on the West Bank.....or whether he guides their bombs in Gaza.....

If only every politician was asked and forced to explain the reasoning by which they arrived at a position.

 

[IlovethePies]

Do you think an 86 year old ex-American serviceman who emigrated from France as a two year old is a position to make an informed statement about a nation's war policy 10,000 km away?

Yes. Distance is not a criterion for making informed decisions in a world with the internet and social media.
He is in a very informed position, having experienced the Holocaust. who better qualified to know a genocide when he sees a genocide?

 

[IlovethePies]

Israel = Jews
"from the river to the sea"

Israel = Jews is your position.
You're the one who claims that any criticism of the Israeli government is "anti-Semitic"

 

[sr36]

Israel = Jews
"from the river to the sea"

From that video?

 

[Markfs]

I was just reading about Fatima Payman on wiki. it says that she was born in Afghanistan. I wonder if she's a dual citizen....

 

[ZEV]

No mate. She said that the issue isn't 'Jewish v Muslim'.

It was a comment designed to take the ethnic and religious elements from the discussion, to say that the issue for her has nothing to do with being a Muslim.

It's about decency.

Maybe give that some thought before trying to distort her comments.

Sure mate, that's what she meant

 

[Markfs]

If only every politician was asked and forced to explain the reasoning by which they arrived at a position.

even if they did, someone like Zevie would use divine intervention to understand what they really meant.....

 

[JB1975]

Sure mate, that's what she meant

It's exactly what she meant. Poor effort to suggest otherwise.

But I can see you might be projecting your own perspective, that you find it hard to believe that she doesn't see things through the same paltry prism.

 

[sr36]

Sure mate, that's what she meant

Yours is a seriously shit interpretation of what she said.

 

[leon123]

Israel = Jews
"from the river to the sea"

I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, Josh Burns is supportive of her

 

[ZEV]

I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, Josh Burns is supportive of her

"One Labor MP who has publicly offered support for Senator Payman is Josh Burns, who told the ABC he did not agree with her stance but did not want to see further punishment.

Burns, a Jewish MP who called his government's support for a UN motion on Palestinian UN membership a "miscalculation", said the party should be "an example to the Australian community about how to debate difficult issues respectfully."

Senator Payman said Mr Burns was "a good friend" who had "checked on me more than any other colleague," saying some other colleagues had given her a "cold shoulder"."

 

[ZEV]

Yours is a seriously shit interpretation of what she said.

Why, who sees it as a Jewish vs Muslim issue?

 

[IlovethePies]

From how I read the themes of Zev's posts, he regards it as mostly a "civilisation vs terrorism" issue, with "civilisation" being supposedly represented by the Netahayu government, and "terrorism" supposedly being represented by the Hamas movement. No doubt he also regards Hezbollah in exactly the same light as Hamas, and most likely the Houthi rebels as well.
It just so happens that the alleged terrorists all follow the religion of Islam, so the two things can easily get conflated - in much the same way as Zev also conflates the criminal state of Israel and its fascist government with all Jewish people.
That is why he cannot answer why there are so many Jews in the world who agree with Rene Lichtman.

 

[ZEV]

From how I read the themes of Zev's posts, he regards it as mostly a "civilisation vs terrorism" issue, with "civilisation" being supposedly represented by the Netahayu government, and "terrorism" supposedly being represented by the Hamas movement. I am sure however, he would regard Hezbollah in exactly the same light as Hamas, and most likely the Houthi rebels as well.
It just so happens that the terrorists all follow the religion of Islam, so the two things can easily get conflated - in much the same way as Zev also conflates the criminal state of Israel and its fascist government with all Jewish people.
That is why he cannot answer why there are so many Jews in the world who agree with Rene Lichtman.

You don't understand the difference between radical islamists and Muslims.

You called me a Nazi the other day.

You have found an American Holocaust survivor on the internet. I have them in my family. Not as many who died though.

 

[IlovethePies]

You don't understand the difference between radical islamists and Muslims.

You called me a Nazi the other day.

You have found an American Holocaust survivor on the internet. I have them in my family. Not as many who died though.

Zionism in action is what the world is witnessing right now: the genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israeli Defence Forces, commanded by the Israeli government.
Zionism, fundamentalist Islam and Nazism share many fundamentally common features: extreme nationalism, xenophobia, extreme violence based on ethnic or religious differences...
It is not an accident that there is a documented history of collaboraation between the Nazi government and Zionist leaders during WW2.
All these ideologies are ideologies of extreme nationalism. They all share the same fundamental source: a reactionary nationalist ideology in an age when nationalism is leading to world war.

The real traditions of the Jewish people are expressed by Rene Lichtman and other Jews like him: international solidarity with the oppressed, compassion, humanity. It is not accidental either that many of the great leaders of the socialist movement in the early 20th century were Jewish

 

[Markfs]

I have to say that I agree with Zevie on both points

1. Israel was negotiating agreements with muslim nations before the war. It has no beef with people who can trade. It wants the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, whether they are muslim or christian. It wants them out, pure and simple. In a box or on a plane. It excluded Palestinian Christians from movement around Jerusalem just like their muslim mates before the war. It's the Palestinian part that the Israelis don't like.

2. People like Lichtman are in the small minority. They don't represent the views of jews or Israelis in general. These kinds of views might have been common when lichtman was a small boy, but not anymore. Look at Israeli behavior post war. Revenge. Payback. Get those nazis even if they are 90 year old and were only working as an office girl in a nazi's office. Listen to the words of the highly religious part of Israel. It wants death to the Palestinians, not to muslims in general. It wants them starved. Lichtman is an anomaly.

So I have to say that I agree with him on both points.

 

[JB1975]

Why, who sees it as a Jewish vs Muslim issue?

Not even standard media has accused Payman of framing it as a 'Jewish v Muslim' issue, probably because they'd actually be called out for it.

But here, it seems you can troll to your heart's content. As Sav succinctly put it, your take on Payman is just s***.

Your views also strike me as Islamophobic.

 

[sr36]

Why, who sees it as a Jewish vs Muslim issue?

Heaps of people. She was trying to distance herself from that way of viewing it. No idea why you'd be critical of that

 

[ZEV]

Heaps of people. She was trying to distance herself from that way of viewing it. No idea why you'd be critical of that

Not even standard media has accused Payman of framing it as a 'Jewish v Muslim' issue, probably because they'd actually be called out for it.

She literally says "It is not just a Jewish versus Muslim issue." Clearly she believes religious ideologies are in play.

Your views also strike me as Islamophobic.

Can you show me any evidence of this at all?

Would be handy for you if we had a working definition IHRA style of Islamophobia.

Come on JB, after all the blatant anti-semitism you've defended to protect 'political discussion' you choose this path. Disappointing.

 

[sr36]

She literally says "It is not just a Jewish versus Muslim issue." Clearly she believes religious ideologies are in play

A) That's such a poor reading of her comment. Wilfully poor.

B) Have you listened to Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Hamas. Pretty clear that religious ideologies are a significant part of the equation.

Gvir as minister for national security. Smotrich as minister for finance, but hey nothing to see here. Zev has total faith that ideology isn't involved and it's just a standard liberal government enacting some standard liberal government defence.

 

[JB1975]

She literally says "It is not just a Jewish versus Muslim issue." Clearly she believes religious ideologies are in play.



Can you show me any evidence of this at all?

Would be handy for you if we had a working definition IHRA style of Islamophobia.

Come on JB, after all the blatant anti-semitism you've defended to protect 'political discussion' you choose this path. Disappointing.

You've decided to take those few words out of the context of what she was saying. Her comments were clearly making the point that she doesn't think the issue is about Jews v Muslims.

Yours is the most disingenuous reading possible, designed only to delegitimise a woman who has taken a stand on principle.

Does she believe that religious ideologies are 'in play', beyond her? Probably. She'd be blind not to.

Do religious ideologies explain her decision to split from Labor? No. Not at all.

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I'm not sure an IHRA-style definition of Islamophobia would help us, Zev, considering your utter unwillingness to discuss the IHRA guidelines in any depth.

I've enjoyed watching you pay out on others in this thread for evading questions, given that you've so studiously avoided my questions on IHRA/antisemitism, the report on the experiences of Jewish students at universities, the significance of considerable Jewish opposition to Israel's policies and the implications of this for notions of antisemitism, as well as what sort of resistance by Palestinians you would consider legitimate.

I'll also ask you to explain how I've defended antisemitism, but I don't expect a genuine response. It'll likely be a quote of my own, thrown back at me minus its context and any actual analysis.

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Your distortion of Payman's comments are not only deliberate, they also tap into a stereotype that the political position of Muslims is almost invariably driven by faith.

To draw it out a bit more, they're not capable of non-secular reasoning. Instead, they are beholden to a religious grievance which often casts Jews as a central antagonist.

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It is disappointing, Zev. I won't dispute that.