All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[Markfs]

evidently the trademark has not yet been granted ..

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/river-sea-chant-not-yet-granted-us-trademark-2023-12-06/#:~:text=Fact%20Check-,Fact%20Check%3A%20'From%20the%20river%20to%20the%20sea'%20chant,yet%20granted%20a%20U.S.%20trademark&text=A%20trademark%20application%20for%20the,6%2C%20contrary%20to%20claims%20online.

 

[Markfs]

If not wanting my country

well people in my country have different requirements for freedom of speech...

 

[sr36]

Maybe, but I know what someone is saying when they use the phrase "From the river to the sea." Clearly.

Bit of a revisionist view of what occurred, from memory you didn't even know the statement was in Hebrew and there was a comma inserted which changed the way the statement read. Let's not let facts get in the way of SR36's righteousness.

If not wanting my country to be destroyed by terrorists fits your label of "tribal", then go ahead.

How does that wicked city translate in a way that isn't appalling in the context?

It was a preposition rather than a comma in your translation that changed the meaning - a preposition that doesn't exist in multiple other translations of Bibi's speech - only yours.

I do not blame you at all for being tribal. I just think pouncing on the word "just" is ridiculous.

From the river to the sea Palestine will be free is chanted at all the ceasefire rallies all around the world, by thousands who aren't using the phrase in the sense that offends you - some obviously are. It's unfortunate that that has become the chant of choice. But assuming an Afghani Australian is using it in the way that is offensive to you is very assumptive, as is the reflexive antisemitic calls.

Youre mirroring mark's assumptions about a wholly ideology driven opposition.

 

[Markfs]

Youre mirroring mark's assumptions about a wholly ideology driven opposition.

I'm assuming what about the Liberals SR?

 

[Markfs]

The BBC writes "A senior US administration official said Hamas had agreed to "pretty significant adjustments" to its position."

 

[JB1975]

The Senator has been criticised for more than that.

The Senator's actions, statements and hypocritical standards are what have been criticised. You have resorted to Islamophobic tropes in an effort to defend her.

Thought about it, still believe it.

I read this as, I'm not an Islamophobe, you are.

And yet the reason we're having this exchange is because you tried to suggest that Payman has been animated by Islam and a notion that she can't help but see Jews as the enemy.

As for your proposition that politicians should avoid saying things which foster division, I'd think it would be difficult in a line of work which is founded upon division.

Sorry mate I'm not on school holidays.

I also try and not step in dog shit too.

Apologies accepted.

Sneer and insult has become part of our exchanges, but maybe it's time to step back when these things take the place of substance entirely.

I've expended a lot of words trying to engage on a number of issues related to what's going on. You've helped me to appreciate that the effort is wasted.

I said Payman's words clarified her usage of the phrase "From the river to the sea". You support that phrase though, it may be hard for you to understand what it is calling for.

This isn't coherent and it doesn't seem related to anything that either of us are talking about.

It's not the basis. It's an example. For such a history expert, I'm surprised you don't know the first born son story.
That's ok.

Quick to pull the trigger calling me an Islamophobe though despite having no evidence apart from your mental gymnastics.

Got any examples of these critiques?

Hey JB, didn't know you were ignorant. Ok.

I'm not going to present evidence that I have expressed concern in this thread about the antisemitic tone or content of some posts. I'm not after a merit badge, even if I thought you were qualified to bestow it.

I'm critical of her words and actions. I could care less about what building she prays in.

Muslim or Arab members of the Knesset are the standard in Israel, not an exception like in Australia. Noone cares who you pray too. If you pray if you don't.

Palestinians in Israel have expressed that they feel like second-class citizens. As for the Palestinians in West Bank or Gaza, we can guess how they feel.

-----------------------------------------------

I don't ignore people, but I can see that there's less and less point in trying to engage you in any attempt at deeper understanding.

In the language of the 1990s, you're not a partner for peace.

 

[IlovethePies]

If not wanting my country to be destroyed by terrorists fits your label of "tribal", then go ahead.

You do realise that the state of Israel was created by terrorists, don't you.
Zionist militia who massacred hundreds of Palestinians and provoked their mass emigration to Gaza?
When a country is established on the basis of terror, terror will be the only way that it can sustain itself.
Trotsky:
"The attempt to solve the Jewish question through the migration of Jews to Palestine can now be seen for what it is, a tragic mockery of the Jewish people. Interested in winning the sympathies of the Arabs who are more numerous than the Jews, the British government has sharply altered its policy toward the Jews, and has actually renounced its promise to help them found their “own home” in a foreign land. The future development of military events may well transform Palestine into a bloody trap for several hundred thousand Jews. Never was it so clear as it is today that the salvation of the Jewish people is bound up inseparably with the overthrow of the capitalist system."

 

[sr36]

You do realise that the state of Israel was created by terrorists, don't you.
Zionist militia who massacred hundreds of Palestinians and provoked their mass emigration to Gaza?
When a country is established on the basis of terror, terror will be the only way that it can sustain itself.
Trotsky:
"The attempt to solve the Jewish question through the migration of Jews to Palestine can now be seen for what it is, a tragic mockery of the Jewish people. Interested in winning the sympathies of the Arabs who are more numerous than the Jews, the British government has sharply altered its policy toward the Jews, and has actually renounced its promise to help them found their “own home” in a foreign land. The future development of military events may well transform Palestine into a bloody trap for several hundred thousand Jews. Never was it so clear as it is today that the salvation of the Jewish people is bound up inseparably with the overthrow of the capitalist system."

Um. Did you read that quote?

 

[Markfs]

Hamas operative clearly demonstrates that there's plenty of food in Gaza....

 

[Markfs]

Um. Did you read that quote?

Trotsky was jewish.

 

[IlovethePies]

Um. Did you read that quote?

Yes. History has proven Trotsky totally correct. Israel has become a highly dangerous garrison state for the Jewish people as well, where their existence is not safe, but constantly threatened by military violence.
Israeli society is riven by enormous levels of social inequality
He wrote it in 1938, at the time when the British were in control of the lands of Palestine.
Trotsky did not live to see the US become the new sponsors of the Israeli state.
But his prognosis of the future for any Israeli state has been totally vindicated.
Indeed, the Netahayu fascist government is a tragic mockery for the Jewish people, at least the majority - who have not been poisoned by Zionism

 

[IlovethePies]

Trotsky was jewish.

exactly
More importantly though, he was a socialist.

 

[sr36]

Yes. History has proven Trotsky totally correct. Israel has become a highly dangerous garrison state for the Jewish people as well, where their existence is not safe, but constantly threatened by military violence.
Israeli society is riven by enormous levels of social inequality
He wrote it in 1938, at the time when the British were in control of the lands of Palestine.
Trotsky did not live to see the US become the new sponsors of the Israeli state.
But his prognosis of the future for any Israeli state has been totally vindicated.

What? He was predicting that there would not be a Jewish state. He pretty clearly missed the mark, quite spectacularly.

 

[IlovethePies]

What? He was predicting that there would not be a Jewish state. He pretty clearly missed the mark, quite spectacularly.

Read my comments above. You are simply wrong. He predicted that Palestine might become a bloody trap for hundreds of thousands of Jews. Trotsky was not a soothsayer. To declare that he was absolutely wrong because he did not predict in 1938 in all its features the current state of israel is stupid. He did predict, correctly, that Israel would become a bloody trap for the Jewish people, and would represent a tragic mockery of the real traditions of the Jewish people (Zionism is not part of those historical traditions. Zionism was an abomination that sprung up in opposition to the traditions of internationalism, humanity, and optimism in humanl progress that was represented in the history of the Jewish people). In the fundamentals, he was 100% correct, and the truth of his prognosis will only grow even clearer in the near future.

 

[sr36]

Read my comments above. You are simply wrong.

"Interested in winning the sympathies of the Arabs who are more numerous than the Jews, the British government has sharply altered its policy toward the Jews, and has actually renounced its promise to help them found their “own home” in a foreign land. The future development of military events may well transform Palestine into a bloody trap for several hundred thousand Jews."

He was pretty obviously talking about the near term and not some future of your imagining. The "bloody trap" was for those Jews who'd already moved to Palestine before WW2 in the hope of it becoming a Jewish state. It was either propaganda or he got it way wrong:

 

[JB1975]

"Interested in winning the sympathies of the Arabs who are more numerous than the Jews, the British government has sharply altered its policy toward the Jews, and has actually renounced its promise to help them found their “own home” in a foreign land. The future development of military events may well transform Palestine into a bloody trap for several hundred thousand Jews."

He was pretty obviously talking about the near term and not some future of your imagining. The "bloody trap" was for those Jews who'd already moved to Palestine before WW2 in the hope of it becoming a Jewish state. It was either propaganda or he got it way wrong:

Trot got quite a few things wrong.

An ice-pick through the brain seems to have markedly helped his analysis.

 

[Markfs]

exactly
More importantly though, he was a socialist.

well thats what he said, but in the final analysis, he concerned himself with the "jewish question" a number of times and seemed to come up with ways to allow jews to "congregate" without using anything that might smell of links to colonialism or capitalism....He spent a lot of time assuming capitalism had failed and socialism was on the rise...

which probably begs the question, why even bother worrying what blokes 100 years ago were speculating or dreaming up.

This whole trotsky thing reminds me of my youth and the communist bookshop in freo that maintained availability on all the good books long after anyone would even consider buying them. It was taken over by bob's shoe store. This might prove more useful to you

Groovy Shoes. Best Prices. Fast Shipping | Bob's Shoe Store

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www.bobs.shoes

 

[Markfs]

exactly
More importantly though, he was a socialist.

I did some research and I'd like to point out a couple of things. Bob's shoe stores indicates that it started up in fremantle on the return by Bob from his overseas travels in 1964. I can tell you that the commie bookshop was in freo well into the 1980s. This looks like some capitalist propaganda to me.

Secondly, the bookshop's job of educating the world has been taken over by Resistance Books which is apparently an arm of the Socialist Alliance who have been disturbing train travellers across the nation for decades. Apparently, they print the Green Left Weekly. I hope that you use all this inforrmation wisely Ilovey......

 

[Markfs]

Lindsey Graham was apparently paid this morning.....It sparked this post on twitter

“The Palestinians in Gaza are the most radicalized population on the planet who are taught to hate Jews from birth. It will take years to fix this problem,” Graham said in a post on the social media platform X, formerly known as Twitter.

“When I hear ‘from the river to the sea,’ it reminds me of ‘the Final Solution.’ The Hamas terrorists are the SS on steroids,” he added, drawing a comparison to a Nazi paramilitary organisation, the Schutzstaffel (SS).


Geez Lindsay expect a bonus mate!!!

 

[ZEV]

I read this as, I'm not an Islamophobe, you are.

And yet the reason we're having this exchange is because you tried to suggest that Payman has been animated by Islam and a notion that she can't help but see Jews as the enemy.

As for your proposition that politicians should avoid saying things which foster division, I'd think it would be difficult in a line of work which is founded upon division.

I'm sorry that you've come to that conclusion but I'm not accusing you of islamophobia.

We are having this exchange because I said the Senator's wordings when she was under pressure confirmed her anti-semitic attitude which came from her continual use of "From the river to the sea."

You have reached the conclusion that I am Islamophobic because the Senator that said this is Muslim.

Between the two of us, only one has ever referenced an Australian politician's religious beliefs or ethnicity.

In the light of current events is it really too hard to refrain from using that phrase?

Sneer and insult has become part of our exchanges, but maybe it's time to step back when these things take the place of substance entirely.

I've expended a lot of words trying to engage on a number of issues related to what's going on. You've helped me to appreciate that the effort is wasted.

Probably right on this one.

JB, you are my favourite. I try and give you the most attention out of anyone. I'll try harder.

Hey JB, didn't know you were ignorant. Ok.

I'll give you a hint. It's in the name of the biggest Jewish Holiday. The Passover. Those first-born deaths weren't the work of the Jews.

I'm not going to present evidence

That's ok. I take you at your word. Happy to apply the same standards?

Palestinians in Israel have expressed that they feel like second-class citizens.

Did you put that claim to the same scrutiny as you did the ANU report?

Israel needs to do better when it comes to minorities. This needs to change. No arguments from me here.

I don't ignore people, but I can see that there's less and less point in trying to engage you in any attempt at deeper understanding.

In the language of the 1990s, you're not a partner for peace.

Genuinely, what type of deeper understanding have you attempted to engage me in?

The only type of questions I get asked on this forum are attempted gotcha's or attempts to invalidate my reasoning.

Don't even start me on NATO and Europe, we've been there, didn't end well.

 

[Markfs]

JB, you are my favourite. I try and give you the most attention out of anyone. I'll try harder.

wow you can cut the sexual tension with a knife....moses strikes with his staff...

 

[IlovethePies]

Trot got quite a few things wrong.

An ice-pick through the brain seems to have markedly helped his analysis.

Disgusting comment. Thought you were better than that. Turns out that you are no different, just as ignorant and cynical.

 

[Markfs]

Well its time to have a look at what might happen if Joe is replaced....The options

Kamala - “Given the immense scale of suffering in Gaza, there must be an immediate ceasefire for at least the next six weeks,” Harris said in March.

Gretchen Whitmer - “We stand with Israel. And Israel has a right to defend itself.”

Gavin Newsom - “That’s the Israeli spirit. And it’s also the California spirit.”

Josh Shapiro - In April, he likened pro-Palestinian student protesters to the Ku Klux Klan.

Newson looks like the winner but I like Shapiro's symbolism.....

 

[Markfs]

Zomi Frankcom. Full investigation. Special investigator. Mark Binskin re-appointed as head of CASA last week. Faithful servant of the gov't.

 

[Markfs]

What point are you attempting to make, except that all the Democrats support Netahayu. We aleady knew that.

The point that none are trotskiites.... it's shameful, ilovey.