Expansion Alternate AFL World 1987

[Roylion]

Even not all Fitzroy fans have been lost as many support other clubs now andnot attending their team in the VAFA.

The Fitzroy Football Club commissioned a survey in 1998 that suggested only 27% of Fitzroy supporters were following the Brisbane Lions. The Lions are of course a separate football club from Fitzroy.

Adam Muyt, author of a Fitzroy book called "Maroon and Blue" - published in 2006 - conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy officials, players, members and supporters for the book.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters he made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (About 80,000). And that's only because Brisbane made an effort to incorporate significant aspects of the Fitzroy identity and history into their own club, not because there was a merger or relocation.

Perhaps a merger with a Melbourne based club (incorporating a significant Fitzroy identity - such as the 'Melbourne Lions') might have improved these figures.

 

[footyfan1978]

It’s odd that you relocated the 1986 premier (who had made the last 4 GF’s and was in the midst of 8 flags and 12 GFs in 20 seasons) and was one of the only VFL clubs which was debt free in the mid 1980s in 1987

It is. Just my personal slant on things, pp and wee club is not a good look. Do not take it personally...lol..

 

[AndyD]

Carlton on Friday/ Sat. Coburg on Sunday.
I think some of the reactions are from those not seen how Sunday football niche market for other league actually worked well here. It is why I was really more interested in thoughts of those that at least had lived through it and what thoughts generated from it by just imagining if we went down the path instead.

It is also more romantic to me to imagine a real football club like Norwood joined and got bigger than it already was there than unromantic franchises started up instead from scratch. Think it would have added more character to our own league to have more traditional football clubs join and grow fan bases into this century and then also the local clubs that did not get in, still get a Sunday menu for themselves even though it not the elite level. It still a decent level like VFA was to have a genuine decent following.
Imagine if the real Port Adelaide had been admitted in 1987 with Norwood and get out of the fishbowl there for a bigger football ocean. Same with East Fremantle and West Perth from WA. Be more culture added at elite level too. Players spread less thin too with no new clubs, Just players moving a few clubs, rather than new franchise clubs with no culture needing to get list of well over 40 from others overnight.

It’s not about people who didn’t experience Sunday VFA football not understanding the concept, it’s the fact that what your proposing has never ever worked in the history of world sport. There has never been two top flight competitions in the same market for the same sport that compete for or draw from the same talent pool that have decided to run in peaceful coexistence next to each other. Every example in history has shown that it will devolve into a competition with a clear victor and a clear loser. The only way to stop that from eventually happening would be some form of federal legislation that would bar the VFL/AFL from running on Sundays.


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[footyfan1978]

It’s not about people who didn’t experience Sunday VFA football not understanding the concept, it’s the fact that what your proposing has never ever worked in the history of world sport.

This is our sport, forgot the rest of the world. We look after our own game. If the admin agreed in 1987 to do it this way, that is the concept in this alternate universe. Also this is not about expecting the state leagues to be competing with the elite league. It is about giving it a continued niche time on weekend where it keeps a spotlight even though it is not expected to be at the level of the truly elite league. VFA was nowhere near as good as VFL footy but whilst it had Sunday football as a spotlight it had a good way of being something plenty loved seeing that had history and culture too. The WAFL and SANFL getting same nice market each Sunday in their states in alternate footy path is a concept you not getting. You not seen how it worked here well.

 

[Carringbush2010]

but I see no evidence of those times of fans giving up their Port Melbourne, Footscray, Williamstown or North following to jump onto a team in breakaway league in 1897.

Agreed, this is what I find perplexing about the wa and sa public. It's the complete opposite, they dropped their wafl and sanfl clubs like a toxic ex, overnight! for brand new franchises with zero history.

Why is that? Those two leagues were highly highly prominent and no doubt of 1st tier standard. The mind boggles, I'll never understand why the public were so quick to dump the leagues they'd been following for nearly 100 years. Sad really.

 

[footyfan1978]

Agreed, this is what I find perplexing about the wa and sa public. It's the complete opposite, they dropped their wafl and sanfl clubs like a toxic ex, overnight! for brand new franchises with zero history.

Why is that? Those two leagues were highly highly prominent and no doubt of 1st tier standard. The mind boggles, I'll never understand why the public were so quick to dump the leagues they'd been following for nearly 100 years. Sad really.

I think they did stupid things first like have an Eagles game on at Subiaco and then a WAFL game straight after it. Not smart.
Having the WAFL game before would be more sensible but ultimately creating Eagles pulled too many players out of the clubs that were high quality players all at once. That is the problem of creating a new club out of thin air. Got to get players from somewhere. It is why not creating a new club but just pushing forward existing clubs into the premier league would be a more natural expansion and less harmful to fabric of the football community. ala... part of this thread idea....imagine an alternate path ..
Expansions clubs take from what exists already and thins out the talent at level below.

Alternate path...Existing clubs upgrading would be a better option to explore if it had the general support of the football leagues accepting this is what had to happen. Hence East Freo Sharks and West Perth get a few players cleared to them as they upgrade to premier league but not so much it rips what is left to shreds. Sunday football for the rest in Perth and those two clubs get to play with the clubs on East side of nation and get a game each weekend in Perth on a Friday night or Saturday. Then the locals still get the Sunday arvo to focus back on their WAFL they traditionally follow for a century.

 

[thegreig]

It’s odd that you relocated the 1986 premier (who had made the last 4 GF’s and was in the midst of 8 flags and 12 GFs in 20 seasons) and was one of the only VFL clubs which was debt free in the mid 1980s in 1987

and kept North Melbourne as one of the remaining Victorian clubs...

 

[Hawkk]

It is. Just my personal slant on things, pp and wee club is not a good look. Do not take it personally...lol..

Yeah pretty much lol

Thread should be in the divvy bin

 

[footyfan1978]

Yeah pretty much lol

Thread should be in the divvy bin

No, legit thread. Hawks part just a minor half joke as example of some clubs could have relocated to Tassie. Whether it St.Kilda with Baldock blessing of the time or Hawks with Huddo blessing, would have been interesting alternative path to explore. Saints the most likely for this period of 1987. Imagine how much Tassie would have loved Lockett.

 

[footyfan1978]

and kept North Melbourne as one of the remaining Victorian clubs...

Had a softer spot for North but if Brisbane Kangaroos could be the alternative, would be happy to explore that too if Lions and Demons merge as the Melbourne Lions in 1987.

 

[footyfan1978]

Brisbane Kangaroos (Brisbane relocation)
Carlton
Collingwood
East Fremantle
Essendon
Geelong
Hawthorn
Melbourne Lions
Port Adelaide
Norwood
Richmond
Southern Saints (Tasmania relocation)
Sydney Swans
West Perth

 

[Evolved1]

Carlton on Friday/ Sat. Coburg on Sunday.
I think some of the reactions are from those not seen how Sunday football niche market for other league actually worked well here. It is why I was really more interested in thoughts of those that at least had lived through it and what thoughts generated from it by just imagining if we went down the path instead.

It is also more romantic to me to imagine a real football club like Norwood joined and got bigger than it already was there than unromantic franchises started up instead from scratch. Think it would have added more character to our own league to have more traditional football clubs join and grow fan bases into this century and then also the local clubs that did not get in, still get a Sunday menu for themselves even though it not the elite level. It still a decent level like VFA was to have a genuine decent following.
Imagine if the real Port Adelaide had been admitted in 1987 with Norwood and get out of the fishbowl there for a bigger football ocean. Same with East Fremantle and West Perth from WA. Be more culture added at elite level too. Players spread less thin too with no new clubs, Just players moving a few clubs, rather than new franchise clubs with no culture needing to get list of well over 40 from others overnight.

The problem with admitting traditional clubs from SA and WA state leagues into the AFL would be that fans of other teams from the same leagues wont follow those clubs. If you want newly admitted clubs to have the strongest following possible from the start, you have to form new teams. There's no way around it.

Think of it this way. Would you support an Essendon team playing in the SANFL or WAFL if it was the only Victorian team?

 

[threesixpio]

In 1898, the interstate games would have been a real problem.

The Shanghai match even worse

 

[Scotland]

Not really. You missed an important part of this alternate path of Sunday football is virtually the day to follow state footy clubs.
Lots of people in Melbourne followed the VFA footy on Sunday previously. But premier league of VFL name changed to AFL and got Sunday football part of their important schedule. VFA footy died off in interest here to become the skeleton it is now because of the Sunday football market changing here.

This alternate thought experiment gives rise to opportunities of footy fans fully into their AFL on Friday night and Saturday and then for Sunday arvo they can embrace the state footy leagues like we used to do here with VFA. Not everyone would do that but like back in early 80's here in Melbourne, plenty might of to make it a really great footy balance on the whole.

Your comments show you cannot imagine how it was, to be embraced.
The start of thread really highlighted was seeing what those from those times could imagine it.
West Australia and South Australia have not experienced those possibilities of having a good state league on Sunday that people embrace that lives next to a bigger league having the first part of weekend all theirs.
Here it worked well before the big league bullied itself to get into Sunday foothall as 1980's went on. It is why VFA footy is now the skeleton league it is.

This alternate path would give some hope for VFA footy to continue to be as important as it was in early 80's here and if SA and WA could replicate it when 2 existing clubs joined the premier league it is not impossible this could work side by side of AFL all the focus early part of weekend and state league warmly embraced for those that love that too.

It was never tried or thought through at all for all league as a whole. VFL just took complete control and all other league had to fit around it and become skeleton leagues that once had good followings. All leagues were going to be changed in some form no matter what but this alternate path attempts to imagine a better possible scenario so the other leagues not completely relegated to near nothingness they are now.

This is a bit naive. Reminds me of when people say the AFL (or any other comp in Australia) should have promotion and relegation.

With a national competition the appetite for any state league comp was always going to decline significantly. WC didn't start playing Saturday afternoon home games (excluding the odd final out of schedule necessity) until 2002. For years we played Sunday afternoons at Subiaco and Friday nights at the WACA. This gave the WAFL free rein over Saturday arvo footy and made it a bit easier in the early days scheduling games for teams travelling to Perth. By that time most WAFL games were getting crowds of 1-2,000, the biggest crowd for a final was 7,000 and the GF got 24,000. Go back to the first season before WC entered and most games got 5-10,000 (some got 15-20k+), all finals got 20k and the GF got 39k. This wasn't the glory days of the WAFL either. In 1982 (with a standing room Subi) the aggregate crowd for 4 finals was 140k. People had 15 years to watch WAFL on Saturday and the local AFL team(s) on Friday/Sunday and didn't.

Victorians aren't special in this regard. People can believe that the VFA popularity of the 70s and early 80s would have continued but the records show it waned heavily in the 90s as the AFL took off as a national comp and all the state leagues fell into line as feeder comps. Most of the interest in the current version of the VFL is in AFL reserves/affiliated teams.

 

[Scotland]

With hawks around 80k (not sure how many have voting rights) what portion is those who voted No (5421 from 8082) to the merger in 1996 (24 years ago) and are still alive/members?

This post highlights why people have short memories. Hawthorn are a financial powerhouse with 80k members and as recently as the mid 90s had 8,000 and were looking to merge.

People who were watching footy in the 70s and 80s who were Hawthorn fans wouldn't have switched teams if some reason Hawthorn were punted, but a lot of those 80k are next generation of fans and just new fans to the game in general. Alternate timeline with that club in the VFL, they don't have 80,000 members - closer to 800. Same goes for all clubs. No kid is going to want to go and watch some team that was big in the 80s in the state league when there is a national comp with teams 10x better in it.

 

[Pessimistic]

This post highlights why people have short memories. Hawthorn are a financial powerhouse with 80k members and as recently as the mid 90s had 8,000 and were looking to merge.

People who were watching footy in the 70s and 80s who were Hawthorn fans wouldn't have switched teams if some reason Hawthorn were punted, but a lot of those 80k are next generation of fans and just new fans to the game in general. Alternate timeline with that club in the VFL, they don't have 80,000 members - closer to 800. Same goes for all clubs. No kid is going to want to go and watch some team that was big in the 80s in the state league when there is a national comp with teams 10x better in it.

about 9k voting members. Total about 13k. Pretty much doubled in 1997

clubs since have been given a shedload more help than hawks or fitzroy got


and ‘if for some reason hawks were punted?’. Reason would be pure jealousy

 

[Scotland]

No team is getting punted out of 'jealousy'. If Hawthorn were punted it would have been due to financial reasons. It sounds far fetched that the AFL would ever consider axing an 80s powerhouse in the 90s, but then they've tried to get rid of 90s powerhouse North for years. No one is getting punted/merged any time soon while more games = more money.

 

[Evolved1]

No team is getting punted out of 'jealousy'. If Hawthorn were punted it would have been due to financial reasons. It sounds far fetched that the AFL would ever consider axing an 80s powerhouse in the 90s, but then they've tried to get rid of 90s powerhouse North for years. No one is getting punted/merged any time soon while more games = more money.

In the long term, it's in the best interests of the league that some Melbourne teams get relocated or merged. You can't have a genuine national competition with half the teams based in one city.

The risk is that you'll lose some supporters forever. That will matter more in relation to some clubs than others.

 

[Pessimistic]

No team is getting punted out of 'jealousy'. If Hawthorn were punted it would have been due to financial reasons. It sounds far fetched that the AFL would ever consider axing an 80s powerhouse in the 90s, but then they've tried to get rid of 90s powerhouse North for years. No one is getting punted/merged any time soon while more games = more money.

i mean back then. Why punt your best team/club ? The afl will NEVER get another chance. Paranoia lives on here friends

 

[Pessimistic]

In the long term, it's in the best interests of the league that some Melbourne teams get relocated or merged. You can't have a genuine national competition with half the teams based in one city.

The risk is that you'll lose some supporters forever. That will matter more in relation to some clubs than others.

melbourne is growing faster than anywhere. Its pretty much a tassie or an NT every year

 

[Scotland]

In the long term, it's in the best interests of the league that some Melbourne teams get relocated or merged. You can't have a genuine national competition with half the teams based in one city.

The risk is that you'll lose some supporters forever. That will matter more in relation to some clubs than others.

Is it, though?

The main advantage to fewer teams is you can actually play a proper home and away season.

Based on 2018 numbers 4 of the bottom 6 clubs for revenue were outside Victoria. We have two teams in the biggest city in the country and they are both in the bottom 4. Membership numbers are dubious but the bottom 3 are non-Victorian clubs. Melbourne can't sustain 9 Coll/Rich/Haw size clubs, but then not every football club in London is Arsenal or Chelsea.

A national competition needs to be representative, to a point. The NRL is mostly NSW teams with a couple in Qld, one in Melbourne and one in NZ. There aren't teams in Perth or Adelaide or Tassie because there's no market for it.

 

[Evolved1]

Is it, though?

The main advantage to fewer teams is you can actually play a proper home and away season.

Based on 2018 numbers 4 of the bottom 6 clubs for revenue were outside Victoria. We have two teams in the biggest city in the country and they are both in the bottom 4. Membership numbers are dubious but the bottom 3 are non-Victorian clubs. Melbourne can't sustain 9 Coll/Rich/Haw size clubs, but then not every football club in London is Arsenal or Chelsea.

A national competition needs to be representative, to a point. The NRL is mostly NSW teams with a couple in Qld, one in Melbourne and one in NZ. There aren't teams in Perth or Adelaide or Tassie because there's no market for it.

Having fewer teams isn't feasible. A shorter h&a season where every team plays each other once, with in 'intermission' halfway through the season for a genuine state of origin mini-competition seems like a reasonable solution to that problem. Just switch the home teams in alternating seasons.

I'm not saying that the competition needs a drastic shift overnight, but it should be the end-goal to have the competition become less Melbourne-based.

 

[terrybull]

The Fitzroy Football Club commissioned a survey in 1998 that suggested only 27% of Fitzroy supporters were following the Brisbane Lions. The Lions are of course a separate football club from Fitzroy.

Adam Muyt, author of a Fitzroy book called "Maroon and Blue" - published in 2006 - conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy officials, players, members and supporters for the book.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters he made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (About 80,000). And that's only because Brisbane made an effort to incorporate significant aspects of the Fitzroy identity and history into their own club, not because there was a merger or relocation.

Perhaps a merger with a Melbourne based club (incorporating a significant Fitzroy identity - such as the 'Melbourne Lions') might have improved these figures.

One always hear that fans state that they follow their team anywhere, which is not the case. Ask the SANFL and WAFL clubs who seen a decline in crowd numbers.

It’s a pity that there is not 15-20 000 at Fitzroy VAFA home games (don’t know that the capacity of Brunswick Oval). But that would shown the AFL that the club becomes before the League.

 

[Blue1980]

Having fewer teams isn't feasible. A shorter h&a season where every team plays each other once, with in 'intermission' halfway through the season for a genuine state of origin mini-competition seems like a reasonable solution to that problem. Just switch the home teams in alternating seasons.

I'm not saying that the competition needs a drastic shift overnight, but it should be the end-goal to have the competition become less Melbourne-based.

If you are suggesting less Melbourne teams, I can’t see it happening nor do I think it needs to. Even the smallest drawing Vic sides are capable of drawing big crowds.

North would have the smallest supporter base and their probably the only one you could make a case for to move, but they turned their back on relocation and now in a decent financial position.

With Melbourne growing as it is, the case to take teams out of melb gets less and less.

I do like the play once idea and introduce a tassie team. For a 20th team where would we go though? Maybe another thread in that.

 

[footyfan1978]

The problem with admitting traditional clubs from SA and WA state leagues into the AFL would be that fans of other teams from the same leagues wont follow those clubs. If you want newly admitted clubs to have the strongest following possible from the start, you have to form new teams.

It is not a problem. 90% of fans from other clubs in 1987 are not going to support them but the youngsters growing up with it the norm are going to naturally gravitate towards supporter East Freo or West Perth and also choose a team in the WAFL to follow each Sunday also.
Put it this way, they would have much stronger followings than Giants, Suns or Bears from the start being an existing club. Then all they need to do is grow it in the next generation of kids , which is bound to happen. It is not a problem , it is actually an advantage of having a club fabric already to build on in decades to come.