amazing interview, Jones v gill, afl and asadas dirty laundry queried

[pugthemagician]

Hird accepted a 12 month ban.
Robson accepted it and walked, but walked to another job. He hasn't been banned from the AFL.
Evans went for health purposes. The stress took its toll, but he is allowed back.

Basically, those no longer there are the ones who chose to walk. Hird chose not to walk. Was suspended. And that should be the end of it unless anything more comes to light.
The reasoning I've seen from people that want him gone seem to point to him being implicit in the actions of the program. If thats the case, why does Dank have an IN from ASADA but Hird doesn't?

I'd like to see where Hird pushed Evans under a bus.
He looked visibly shaken in that last game. A day later, he stepped away for the purposes of his health.

The reasoning for walking is that as a leader of a group of young men he did not protect the health and safety of his playing group.

This is not a code of conduct issue you as a project manager will still be responsible if your employees you manage did something illegal and you sat by and let them.

Arguing that the organisational structure protects and reduces your responsibility is not the act of a leader. The players have his support (allegedly) but I wonder what would happen if they get banned for a substantial time.

If they followed the Hird leadership model they would be providing substantial assistance to ASADA to get their sanction reduced. But who can the point the finger at hey you know what we aren't responsible it's our leaders who are lets deflect it on to them.

Any true leader would not have waited to be suspended but would have stood down pending any investigation.

 

[citizen-erased]

Yes 34 players facing infraction notices, banned from finals, suspended for a year.... Wonderful period for the club.

Roll your eyes all you want, on-field we are still in better shape than we were.
This list is good enough to challenge and have shown it.
If those players are there rd.1, we can push up the 8 and challenge for top 4.
We are up against it in the first 2 rds, so missing a few weeks of the season isn't overly detrimental.
And the side we fielded Friday night wasn't outclassed in too worrying a fashion.

Its not without its grey clouds, but nor is it the end of days.

 

[Cylon7]

why is it a given he was given money to keep quiet? Wasnt he given compensation for unfair dismissal?

That's it though. Why is this not known? Whoever is innocent should be protected and whoever is guilty should be exposed. And all the shades inbetween should be known, so every last person in this affair and in this game is treated justly, fairly and with transparency.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Was he unfairly dismissed though? We copped some massive injuries that wrote 2012 off. A lot of it looked related to fatigue in muscles.

I think the payout was mainly based on defamation. He copped a fair amount in the press as part of this. The baying for blood racked up a few unfortunate casualties. Hence why this should have been done behind closed doors.

~$2M says he was unfairly dismissed, i.e. he was doing what he was told to do.

 

[Laphroaig]

Its sad this took over the game, and if i were the AFL i would have told the Fed Govt to have fun with their presser but we'll get some details before going public, tell every reporter this is an ACC/ASADA investigation so report its happening but leave the details of who, what, when etc til the time is right, and then let it play out. A la what they did with Crowley. That didn't seem so painful, did it.
But they didn't, and this is what we get.

So you think the Orange Roughie, in her desperation to get distraction from her own bad press is going to do what the mighty AFL says?

Sure.

You also seem a tad confused. The media fanfare of "the blackest day" was a disgrace. But "this is what we get" is in the end the result of the ACC following a trail of illegally imported PEDs to Essendon Football Club.

Just in case you've subconsciously deleted that data.

 

[Laphroaig]

tell me which of his comments were damaging to essendon? His comments were moe of a personal attack on Hirds character than anything else

his comments didnt result in his payout, his settlement for unfair dismissal did

I don't believe you are genuinely that dumb.

 

[mxett]

"It was a boys' club - whatever James Hird wanted, James Hird got. It was no expense spared, it was 'whatever it takes'. That was James Hird's attitude.

Who challenges James Hird at Essendon? I tried a couple of times but I learnt pretty quickly that was something you don't do.

James Hird drove everything."

nothing more than personal attacks which are essentially irrelevant

 

[citizen-erased]

"It was a boys' club - whatever James Hird wanted, James Hird got. It was no expense spared, it was 'whatever it takes'. That was James Hird's attitude.

Who challenges James Hird at Essendon? I tried a couple of times but I learnt pretty quickly that was something you don't do.

James Hird drove everything."

This from a physio/condition trainer. I don't want to undermine Robinson's contribution, but he didn't have the runs on the board to call any shots. Especially given the injury crisis that ended our 2012.
No expense spared doesn't worry me either. If we are too cheap as a big club to chase success, id be disappointed. Especially seeing what Collingwood will spend, and Hawthorn will do to prolong this window. So why thats a bad thing i don't know.

This is hardly a smoking gun. It was a sob story (not without cause), but i don't recall where we blamed him for any of this. He was linked to Dank in the media. We distanced ourselves from him as he'd been sacked. Poor form ill admit. But his allegations hardly proved anything. Hearsay and all that.

 

[mxett]

Mxett if it wasn't significant, then why did the EFC seek legal advice?
I will tell what i think happened and this is only my opinion.
EFC to legal: What can we do to shut this bloke up?
legal to EFC: what does he have on you?
EFC: heaps
Legal: Pay him out

cool story. what does he have on the club? his only comments in his tell all were personal against Hird

 

[Ron The Bear]

nothing more than personal attacks which are essentially irrelevant

It's less a personal attack than an affirmation that Hirdy ran the show.

 

[LoungeLizard]

cool story. what does he have on the club? his only comments in his tell all were personal against Hird

Didn't he get paid out more than he would of made if he stayed working?
I wonder why that is?

 

[Ron The Bear]

This from a physio/condition trainer. I don't want to undermine Robinson's contribution, but he didn't have the runs on the board to call any shots. Especially given the injury crisis that ended our 2012.
No expense spared doesn't worry me either. If we are too cheap as a big club to chase success, id be disappointed. Especially seeing what Collingwood will spend, and Hawthorn will do to prolong this window. So why thats a bad thing i don't know.

This is hardly a smoking gun. It was a sob story (not without cause), but i don't recall where we blamed him for any of this. He was linked to Dank in the media. We distanced ourselves from him as he'd been sacked. Poor form ill admit. But his allegations hardly proved anything. Hearsay and all that.

There was no smoking gun, at least in the edited footage that went to air. Nobody has produced a smoking gun, which is what Essendon supporters are hanging their hats on. However it provided valuable context for information from elsewhere. For example, Dank selling Hird the story that Collingwood was using HGH, which in turn prompted Hird to license Dank to push the envelope. Or Hird asking Robinson to investigate an undetectable testosterone cream.

Of course Robinson was blamed, he was stood down the minute the ACC investigation was made public - the only employee treated that way IIRC. He and Dank were in the gun from the off. Unfortunately for the club, Dank played it well and strategically leaked information that tied Hird's fate to his own...

 

[citizen-erased]

The reasoning for walking is that as a leader of a group of young men he did not protect the health and safety of his playing group.

This is not a code of conduct issue you as a project manager will still be responsible if your employees you manage did something illegal and you sat by and let them.

Arguing that the organisational structure protects and reduces your responsibility is not the act of a leader. The players have his support (allegedly) but I wonder what would happen if they get banned for a substantial time.

If they followed the Hird leadership model they would be providing substantial assistance to ASADA to get their sanction reduced. But who can the point the finger at hey you know what we aren't responsible it's our leaders who are lets deflect it on to them.

Any true leader would not have waited to be suspended but would have stood down pending any investigation.

In what was clearly a very poor governance structure, do you blame anyone for taking this approach.
The players went in for what they believed were legal supplements, that the due diligence had been done on.
Hird placed his faith in Dank doing the right checks and those running the program to do the right thing by the players (hence insisting it remained onside with the code).

As i keep saying. I have seen no proof that Hird sought to breach the code. Given what Senior coaches are charged with as a full time job, i can't expect any of them to be that in the detail.
If there is a text, email, memo, phone conversation that shows him instructing Dank to subvert the code, fine. But i need to see that before i call for his head

 

[BlueWorld]

Roll your eyes all you want, on-field we are still in better shape than we were.
This list is good enough to challenge and have shown it.
If those players are there rd.1, we can push up the 8 and challenge for top 4.
We are up against it in the first 2 rds, so missing a few weeks of the season isn't overly detrimental.
And the side we fielded Friday night wasn't outclassed in too worrying a fashion.

Its not without its grey clouds, but nor is it the end of days.

It's good to be optimistic.

 

[citizen-erased]

There was no smoking gun, at least in the edited footage that went to air. Nobody has produced a smoking gun, which is what Essendon supporters are hanging their hats on. However it provided valuable context for information from elsewhere. For example, Dank selling Hird the story that Collingwood was using HGH, which in turn prompted Hird to license Dank to push the envelope. Or Hird asking Robinson to investigate an undetectable testosterone cream.

Of course Robinson was blamed, he was stood down the minute the ACC investigation was made public - the only employee treated that way IIRC. He and Dank were in the gun from the off. Unfortunately for the club, Dank played it well and strategically leaked information that tied Hird's fate to his own...

Not 100%, but I'm pretty sure he went before the ACC investigation. Plenty at the club were asking questions after 2012 about the injuries that ended the season and whether they were being overworked. Could be wrong though.

In the absence of a smoking gun though, what do you want from us? Just turn on Hird, who has given our club a lot of good memories, because he has outraged the AFL community?

 

[blackshadow]

Just in case you've subconsciously deleted that data.

memory-erased

 

[Ron The Bear]

Not 100%, but I'm pretty sure he went before the ACC investigation. Plenty at the club were asking questions after 2012 about the injuries that ended the season and whether they were being overworked. Could be wrong though.

In the absence of a smoking gun though, what do you want from us? Just turn on Hird, who has given our club a lot of good memories, because he has outraged the AFL community?

Not asking anything from you. The collective blind faith is understandable up to a point. But the evidence must surely prompt all to accept it's at least possible that James Hird initiated a dark turn in late 2011.

 

[mxett]

It's less a personal attack than an affirmation that Hirdy ran the show.

Which is fairly irrelevant to an asada case, and is basically hks opinion

 

[Gavstar]

My understanding was that Hird wanted the Dank injections program to continue and wanted the Robinson conditioning program stopped?

They were effectively separate programs and Dank was not under Robinsons control. Dank was directly reporting outcomes to Hird.

I'm a tertiary "qualified" biochemist and totally uqualified to administer Jack to humans, only Doctors and nurses can go there and only with ethical & clinical trial approval and safety up the wazoo.

Imagine an anaphylactic reaction to a IV peptide in Danks office or AOD9694/Thymosin combo producing a TGN1412 like reaction or some adult induced growth hormone deficiency through a self immune reaction to native "AOD" containing hormones. EFC don't know how lucky they are

 

[mxett]

Didn't he get paid out more than he would of made if he stayed working?
I wonder why that is?

Did he? He not only lost his job and a lucrative contract his reputation suffered significant damage

 

[Ron The Bear]

Which is fairly irrelevant to an asada case, and is basically hks opinion

Much as Hird's intent is irrelevant to the players' fate regarding ingestion of PEDs.

 

[blackshadow]

My understanding was that Hird wanted the Dank injections program to continue and wanted the Robinson conditioning program stopped?

They were effectively separate programs and Dank was not under Robinsons control. Dank was directly reporting outcomes to Hird.

I'm a tertiary "qualified" biochemist and totally uqualified to administer Jack to humans, only Doctors and nurses can go there and only with ethical & clinical trial approval and safety up the wazoo.

Imagine an anaphylactic reaction to a IV peptide in Danks office or AOD9694/Thymosin combo producing a TGN1412 like reaction or some adult induced growth hormone deficiency through a self immune reaction to native "AOD" containing hormones. EFC don't know how lucky they are

I've heard whispers that the spate of injuries started when the coaching staff started modifying Robinson's programs for the players - apparently each player had an individual program designed by Robinson for conditioning and recovery but for some reason the coaches made changes to the programs.

Surely an inexperienced coach wouldn't be so stupid...

 

[mxett]

Much as Hird's intent is irrelevant to the players' fate regarding ingestion of PEDs.

Where is Hirds intent questioned?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Did he? He not only lost his job and a lucrative contract his reputation suffered significant damage

Reports are $2mill, that's a nice payout mxett.
Maybe the senior management from the top down, didn't want Robinson telling all that they knew what was going on?
Maybe the club didn't want the truth to come out about Charter, because then they would be liars hey?
Maybe they didn't want the interview with Dank known, you know the Black Ops?
Just maybe Robinson knew way too much that the EFC wanted kept quite?

 

[citizen-erased]

Not asking anything from you. The collective blind faith is understandable up to a point. But the evidence must surely prompt all to accept it's at least possible that James Hird initiated a dark turn in late 2011.

Anything is possible. And its not blind faith in his innocence or his guilt.
I judge him based on what I know he has done. Right now, i know he kicked off a risky program with poor safeguards. Its not enough for me to think he should lose his job.