ImissFrosty
Murphy's Law
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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Media And Now For Something Completely Different
- Aug 25, 2011
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With the expansion vote due next Monday, we are seemingly no closer to understanding how Sweet FA might look beyond season 33. The entry of a thirteenth team into the competition throws up the likelihood of including byes in the fixture for next season, an idea that is unpalatable to some around the league. An alternative option put forward sees teams playing double headers, either as a three-team match thread or a team being involved in two separate match threads in one week. This idea, too, has been deemed unfavourable. A 13-team competition would also likely see the season shortened or extended, with views being split each way.
The current Sweet FA season structure sees all current teams play each other three times over the course of two seasons within one calendar year. One season will see 16 games played plus finals while the other season will contain 17 games plus finals. This is not feasible with a 13-team competition. Future admin candidates have been asked to put forward their proposals for how the fixture would look. Current league admin, NaturalDisaster, has seemingly swept the matter under the rug. Some teams have even expressed an unwillingness to vote in favour of expansion until this matter has been resolved.
But what if there was another option?
While double headers are not everyone’s cup of tea, there are teams and posters who would be open to the suggestion. With a 13-team competition, one team would be required to sit on the sidelines and watch each week. Unless they had a team to post against.
The Sweet FA All Stars
Currently, season 34 is slated to consist of 17 rounds. I am proposing the addition of an unofficial 14th team consisting of interested players from across the league that will play an exhibition game against the bye team each week. Interested players will participate in their club’s regular match thread as well as an exhibition match thread in the same week. I believe there will be sufficient interest to fill at least 20 places on this team.
The season would see all Sweet FA clubs play 16 official games and at least one exhibition match. Two teams would be required to play one double header each. Those same two teams would be required to play the exhibition team twice (a total of 18 games; 16 official + two exhibition). The exhibition team would play a total of 15 games. This would see seven games played each week – six official games and one exhibition game for 15 rounds and seven official games for two rounds.
Finals would remain as normal.
I believe this solution resolves all of the major issues presented by clubs:
- There would be no byes
- Only two teams would be required to play a double header – I believe two clubs would put their hand up for this
- The exhibition team presents an opportunity for additional engagement. Interested players can participate in multiple match threads each week.
- The exhibition team would not be subject to the same squad submission rules and can be rotated to accommodate all interested players if more than 20 people express interest.
- The scheduled season length remains the same while teams lose one official game each
- Finals remain untouched
Proposed S34 Fixture
ROUND team1 team2 team3 team4 team5 team6 team7 team8 team9 team10 team11 team12 team13 EXH team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 EXH team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team8 team3 EXH team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team2 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 EXH team8 team7 team6 team5 team9 team5 team4 EXH team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team3 team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 EXH team9 team8 team7 team10 team7 team6 team5 EXH team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team4 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 EXH team10 team9 team11 team9 team8 team7 team6 EXH team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team5 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 EXH team11 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 EXH team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team6 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 EXH team13 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 EXH team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team7 EXH team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team2 team1 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 EXH team7 team6 team5 team4 team3 team8 team3 EXH team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team5 team4 team2 team4 team3 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team2 team8 team7 team6 team5 team9 team5 team4 team8 team2 team1 team13 team12 team11 team10 team9 team8 team7 team6 team3 TOT
Barrybran
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How did I disregard your point or talk down to you?
The beez Trophy is a posting award that encompasses ALL posting on the board for a given season. Why would exclude someone's posting from one thread and not another? If you'd said All-SFA, sure, because the posting criteria for that is meant to be specific to match threads however that does not apply to the beez.
Beez voting is not voted on by the top 50-60 contributors in terms of activity are not the top 50-60 posters in terms of quality. The number of voters would also be heavily skewed towards a small number of clubs. It would not be fair or a reasonable indication of all round posting quality.
I'm happy to concede that my idea won't be perfect however given my experience in the league I am confident in my observations and proposal.
Senor M
Hookturnistan Forever!!!
Having 20 players represent 2 different clubs wouldn't be a fair or reasonable indication of all around posting quality either, especially when the representatives of the "Exhibition Team" will likely come from the top few posters in each club, which means they are even more likely to be Beez voters themselves.
This little group then has the potential to vote for one another & it lead to an "Exhibition Team" celebration where they are the "best team" simply because they all agree it's the best team.
But you're looking at this from being part of the "in crowd" that runs the league. You were in the committee until recently, you're a mod, you're a simmer/match poster and have been for many seasons.
You need to get away from your ivory tower and think about how this proposal looks like from outside of the inner circle.
This league isn't about the 20-30 posters that form the "in crowd", but 200+ posters who contribute every week.
The Filth Wizard
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- Jul 26, 2007
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- #30
I agree completely with the last paragraph here, if the vote goes through then yes, definitely the 14 team should be league priority number one. I've been out of the loop for a while though not being in the committee, is "when the vote goes through" the inside word? Still seems to me a lot of the positivity about it seems to be coming from representatives of teams that voted yes last time and I may be misremembering but it seems the Bombers have switched to no meaning the OOB's need to turn two clubs that voted no last time.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
Ophidian Old Boyssend me a recruitment PM if this gets going
Barrybran
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- #32
I don't believe that would happen. I also believe those familiar with beez voting share my thoughts.
Ok, so you have said I have spoken down to you and when asked how, you have followed up by saying my view comes from an "ivory tower".
This league, and my proposal, is for everyone. But who do you think is going to express the MOST interest? The people who float between match threads and media each week? Or the people who poke their head in to say "go team" on a Sunday?
Exhibition team or not, the posting dynamics will (and have always been) the same.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
Why do you assume clubs that voted yes last time will vote yes this time and clubs who voted no need to be turned?
We have new captains with new team line ups which includes a lot of new players that were not around last expansion debate.
I'd like to think that teams will all take a look at the strength of our bid and make the decision on which way to vote based on their belief if it is viable and something they think can add to the SFA landscape. If teams vote NO because that's what they did last time the Sweet F.A. is never going to move forward.
Senor M
Hookturnistan Forever!!!
What a lovely way of resoundingly condescendingly on behalf of the "in crowd" towards the rest of the league. I've been in the SFA for 4 seasons now. I understand how the Beez votes work. I'm sure that no everyone else in the league agrees with you opinion, just because you say they do Baz.
There's more than 20 members of the SFA who "float between match threads and media each week", many of which who are invested primarily in their own club rather than the SFA as a collective. Implying that the majority of the league is just "go team" posters is BS and demonstrates that you think you're above the average SFA posters.
An "Exhibition" team would just be another version of the BC or the Nerd Club, where individual posters loyalties between their club and the "Exhibition" group is divided. If I was a club captain-- I'd be wanting my "star posters" contributing their available time and posting ability towards my team, not spending half their time posting for someone else all season long in an attempt to get Beez votes by hanging out with the "in crowd".
Posting dynamics will not be the same. Because you've got people who are dividing their attention across two match threads every week. It will lead to poster burn out, lower output from many "stars" of the game (because a 70 p/w poster may end up posting 50 p/w for their club and 20 p/w for the expansion side) and lead to confusion between ongoing narratives between dual club posters as opposition may carry jokes from thread to thread, or dual club posters could struggle to decide how to contribute in a match thread between their club and the expansion side.
You need to think out this idea a bit more Baz and discrediting my discussion because I'm not in the "in crowd" with your arrogant attitude isn't going to change that.
Senor M
Hookturnistan Forever!!!
I don't have an "inside word", I'm just on the assumption that the OOB will go through based on my impression of how the league is going. They are an excellent posting list, have a unique persona and will add something to the league next season.
If current club captains & LG's don't see that, then that's they choice. But I know what I'm suggesting to Muddiemoose & Suns Supreme as part of the Bears LG.
The Filth Wizard
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- #36
I never said I assumed anything. I already said it seemed like one club had already been turned to "no". The last expansion bids weren't that long ago, the teams in general haven't changed that much and most of the clubs that voted no last time voted no because they didn't want any new clubs coming in. The vibe I'm seeing, just through casual observation, is that the same teams that supported it last time are still vocal, the teams that voted no are not. The question was simply why are we talking about inevitability and came from a place, as mentioned, out of the loop. I was merely enquiring as I've not spoken to anybody about expansion during this campaign bar my committee member and I was wondering if there was internal committee conjecture it was a fait accompli.
As for "the Sweet FA is never going to move forward" I've read this so many times now it seems like a recording. It's just an opinion, a somewhat biased one.
There's no need to be abrupt, anyway. I have already voted in support.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
didn't mean to come off as abrupt Filth, wasn't my intention.
I guess after months of replying to questions and trying to stamp out anti expansionist bush fires, my sharpness is getting a bit blunt
- Aug 25, 2011
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That's an interesting way of looking at what should rightly be a thorough and well reasoned debate on something that will significantly impact the league.
Barrybran
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- #39
Based on your responses, I'm not confident that you do understand how the voting process works. That's not condescending. That is an observation combined with experience.
There will be people that don't agree with my opinion. There will be people that do agree with my opinion. Again, based on experience, I believe that those who understand the process will agree with my sentiments.
Where did I imply that the majority of the league are "go team" posters? And of course there are more than 20 people who float between match threads. That's why I'm confident this suggestion would work. An exhibition team will be whatever those posters make it.
I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree with this statement. Look at the posting data. How many of the most active posters burn out in a season? The Bombers are still posting substantially at season's end. The Demons are still posting substantially at season's end. The most prolific posters around the league are still posting substantially at season's end.
We're not talking about creating a 14th team with the dynamics of a regular Sweet FA team. We're talking about the likelihood of such a team being made up primarily of posters who are already posting heavily around the board in addition to their match threads.
This idea is the culmination of seven years' involvement on this board, publicly and behind the scenes, and following the discussion regarding expansion publicly and behind the scenes. I'm not sure how you think this ideas isn't thought out.
Don't confuse arrogance with confidence. I've been around long enough to have an idea about what works and doesn't work. I don't have all the answers but I have a pretty good grasp on the functioning and personalities of this board.
From my perspective, you have been quite arrogance and dismissive, the very qualities you're accusing me of. If you want to take pot shots, that's fine, but I'd ask that you approach this discussion more constructively please.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
What I said was months of replying, not referring specifically to the conversation currently going on about the bye and or introduction of another team, both of which need to be discussed and options looked at.
Examples of anti-expansionist bush fires I was referring to are 'your team has too many good players', 'OOB are going to hurt the struggling clubs', 'how do we know your players are going to stay', 'how do we know your rookies will be here by the time the comp starts', 'why don't you fold a weaker team and take their spot', 'why don't you just join weaker teams', 'this is just a vanity piece how do we know it will last', 'you only have 21 players', 'how do we know the players that joined really have and it isn't going to change when the season starts', 'its just a rebrand of a failed bid' etc. etc. etc.
I am leading this bid, so be assured I take the conversations and debates seriously
Senor M
Hookturnistan Forever!!!
So people that disagree with you don't "understand how the voting process works"?
How does that NOT sound condescending mate?
You're the one who first mentioned the "go team" posters, not me. You spoke about how those types weren't engaged with the league and only the views of the "in crowd" who agree with you matter.
serial_thrilla 's posting data that shows consistently over the past 3 seasons posting numbers go down as the season progresses?
By focusing that clubs are still posting substantially at the end of the season, you're confusing clubs with individuals. Clubs that are still posting high numbers at the end of the season is because of the club culture at the Bombers and the Demons, not the individual posters-- but the collective of their successful communities.
So posters that are contributing to the league because of good club culture. Any player that contributes to this "exhibition" team is going to have their focus split between their club and contributing towards this "exhibition" side. Any idea or post they contribute to the "exhibition" side is at the expense of the creativity and quality they could put towards their clubs weekly match thread.
As I said above--- Charity matches or special events are different because people are willing to up their efforts for one week, but expecting them to do it every week for 4 months is unrealistic.
So because you've been around for 7 years and part of the "in crowd" behind the scenes you can discredit any dissenting opinion? IMO-- the next admin should be listening to a voice that represents the 'newer' generation of the SFA, rather than beating your chest that you know what is best, despite not being able to explain how your idea will even work.
Then you finish up the post with a "No, u".
I am approaching this conversation constructively, but trying to bring up discussion points that should be discussed before this ridiculous idea is paraded around as a serious option for next season. You should be acknowledging my concerns and providing explanations as to why my concerns aren't important rather than this pathetic chest beating about being part of the "in crowd" and your 7 years of experience.
I feel there's a generational issue at play here where the veterans of the SFA don't consider the voices or opinions of anyone who's joined since S29.
The Filth Wizard
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- #42
I get it mate, it's been a long time with a lot of work and I understand it's getting nervy. I was on the side that was against it last time (obviously, I think some saw me as the face of that) and even though I thought the right decision had been made I was dismayed for the lost effort and time that had gone into it, and the sheer deflation that would have come with it. This time I still have my misgivings but essentially I supported it with my LG vote. I'm meandering but what I'm saying is can understand some stress from the whole OOB unit at this stage, Monday can't come quick enough.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
Barrybran
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- #44
At the risk of actually sounding condescending, I think you're confusing different points of view with the actual voting process. From my persective though, again, that is just an observation.
I did not say that. Re-read my posts.
Correct, however, the posters most engaged with the board are still contributing strongly outside of match threads as well.
Again, at the risk of sounding condescending, you're confusing individuals with clubs. There are prolific posters at clubs that don't post high volumes as a club. If the option of an exhibition side were on the table, I would expect most prolific posters to be involved, regardless of whether they are from a high-volume club or a low-volume club.
You seem to be doing a great job of focusing your attention here. Am I distracting you from your match thread?
I think you're being silly now. I didn't say I know what's best. I said I have a "good grasp on the functioning and personalities on this board", which I do. That's not beating my chest. I have merely presented an option. An option based on experience and observation accumulated over seven years. Does that make my opinion more valid than yours? Of course it doesn't. But I believe I have a better understanding of the functioning of this board than most so I have contributed an idea.
Some will like this idea. Some won't. That's OK. An option has been put on the table for discussion. You have challenged my ideas and I have reiterated multiple times why I believe they would work. Will they work? Who knows? We won't know if we don't try. And if we don't try, that's OK. But based on the questions and concerns raised, I have put forward an alternative for consideration that I believe, based on my knowledge and experience of this board, will work.
I finished with a "no u" because it was required. As I said above, I felt you were accusing me of the very qualities you were displaying yourself. As I said above, you challenged my ideas and I reiterated why I felt they would work. I feel these ideas will work based on experience and observation. Your retort was to accuse me of being part of the in crowd (fairly confident I'm not) and to attempt to take me down a peg rather than respond in a level-headed manner.
The way you respond is not my responsibility.
I think this comment warrants it's own response. Why do you feel that the voices or opinions of anyone who has joined since season 29 don't get considered? Why season 29?
Senor M
Hookturnistan Forever!!!
The voting process of the Beez is 5 members from each of the 12 (or potentially 13 clubs) am I right?
Can you not see how some of those voters playing alongside TWO different sets of players in a season (even unofficially) won't potentially adversely impact their decision making?
I'll give an example here-- I rate both Tigerturbulance's and Elton Johns Wig 's Beez wins in the last three seasons than yours, because I saw their work week in, week out as a team mate. Where as I probably saw only a third of your posting efforts when you won in S31.
Does that make you a worse Beez winner? Not at all.
Do votes get impacted by people you interact with more regularly (through match threads, media, etc.)? Yes.
That's where I see this this being problematic because the "beez hunters" will all see each others work every week, leaving potentially the best poster on the league on the outer and eventually losing because their focus is on their club rather than the league.
In S32 the overwhelming majority of high-volume posters coming from high volume-clubs.
Top 20 Posting players by Club
Bombers -5
Roys- 3
Demons -3
Royals - 2
Furies -2
Wonders -2
Bears -1
Dragons -1
Warriors -1
The Bombers, Royals, Demons & Royals were the 4 biggest volume clubs.
The above is a perfect example on how a player can put the effort in for ONE week but can't keep it up over an entire season. I'm arranging significantly lower across the entire season and doubt I'll hit over 250+ again this season. Because posting higher numbers isn't sustainable week in, week out.
You actually haven't explained why you believe it would work beyond saying that "based on your knowledge and experience on this board".
I have pointed out flaws in your suggestion so that it can be discussed, analysed and hopefully fixed before it would be implemented (if it's implemented). But there's no point trying an alternative if the challenges of that alternative isn't discussed first.
You have said multiple times (before I mentioned the "in crowd") that your experience in the SFA behind the scenes was the reason as to why this would work. You can't just say it will work because you say it will without actually explaining your thought process. I get that it's an excellent idea in your mind, but you haven't accurately communicated it here in this thread.
Maybe it's explained better elsewhere-- but from what you've explained here, you've made broad assumptions and refusing to discuss the concerns I have and brush them off.
I chose Season 29 as the defining point because that's where I personally visualise the "line" where anyone newer than that isn't respected by some of the veterans (not all, just some) in the SFA. I feel that it's the same faces that were swinging their power around when the Vampires/Serpents expansion discussion occurred that feel that only their voices should be heard.
In this thread you've used your "7 years experience" multiple times to explain why I should trust you on your knowledge rather than actually converse with me on the topic.
The league has changed since then-- many of the captains in the SFA are now from this newer generation and I believe they should now be the guiding voices. We should be trusting these people, rather than keeping them on training wheels and controlling their actions in the shadows.
Barrybran
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You're overthinking this. 20 posters in a match thread won't be much different from 20 posters trawling media week in, week out.
Yes, which is why I said there are prolific posters that post at clubs that don't post high volumes as a club.
My point though is that you have effectively contributed in multiple threads in the same week
sigh
So this ties in the three answers from above. I believe that if this option were pursued, a team could be put together of 20 or more posters that would be able to post in an exhibition thread as well as their club thread each week. I believe this team would likely consist of prolific posters, some higher quality than others, and there may be interest from other consistent posters that don't post prolifically. I have addressed each of these points in my responses.
No, I said have seen how things work behind the scenes as well as publicly. I believe that this idea will work based on what I have observed. As far as communication goes, what don't you understand? My proposal was for the establishment of a 14th team consisting of existing Sweet FA posters to play an exhibition match against the team that would otherwise have the bye. Anyone who wants to be a part of this venture would be invited to take part. If there were more than 20 posters wanting to take part, this team would rotate each week. They would be involved in 15 games throughout the season and posters that are a part of this team would also post in their club's match thread each week. Each of these points is in the OP.
The league has changed since then. We've seen a move away from high levels of creativity and well-thought out ideas towards an increase in high-volume, low-effort nonsense. When considering the direction of this board, do we want to continue down that path or do we want to encourage effort and creativity again? For me, I'm taking that second path every day of the week.
When talking about guiding voices, I look at people who I believe will drive this effort and creativity as well as people who 'get' how the board works. Right now, in my opinion, those people are more experienced. That won't always be the case. We'll have newer posters come along who will demonstrate level-headed and well-thought ideas that tap into this board's creative juices and those people will assume greater roles. But that doesn't mean I'll blindly support someone just because you think I should. I'll think about ideas presented, I'll question, I'll discuss and if I think someone is going to add value I'll help them out, as I and many others before me have done.
damicky
🐀 Remy The Rat 🐀
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I keep getting told what a sh*t poster I am all the time ... one thing we all agree on is that the quality of posting is subjective
Is it possible that players who have been around for 5, 10 or 20 seasons suffer from nostalgia? - "Back in my day, ..........."
If posting quality has deteriorated drastically, whose fault is it? The Veterans, the Newbies or Both???
Barrybran
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Always the new posters (that's a joke)
Yeah, of course that happens. Mobbs tells me I'm wrong all the time. But I can only comment on what I observe. There are certainly some capable newer posters but, by and large, the group I look to happen to be more experienced. I don't look to them because they're experienced, I look to them because they understand the board and have themselves contributed to its success.
Tigerturbulance
245kg of Love Muscle
you
damicky
🐀 Remy The Rat 🐀
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Don't make me put my Tin Foil Hat back on
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