News Andrew Thorburn is retaining legal counsel for wrongful termination by the Essendon Football Club. NOW WITH BIG BANGS

[Chief]

Posts arguing about the validity of transgender people and abortion and all that stuff are being moved. Stick to the topic please.

Thread bans will start tonight for people who cannot stay on topic.

Essendon Football Club CEO Announcement.

Further news:

• New Bombers boss responds to backlash after appointment that ‘spits in the face of every queer Essendon member’
• New Essendon CEO, Andrew Thorburn, involved in church expressing homophobic, anti-abortion views
• Victorian Premier Andrews slams absolutely appalling views of new Essendon CEO'S church
• New Dons CEO to lead 'inclusive' club despite divisive church links

• Thorburn resigns... Essendon Club Statement
• AFR article - paywalled

 

[zeggie]

Time for the LNP to fire up the "Cuture-War-o-Tron".

Poor Christians. Being discriminated yet again. And not just Christians, RICH WHITE Christians. Simply appalling.

 

[Dazb86]

BACK ON TRACK

 

[zeggie]

So homophobic views are ok as long as you're not the CEO?

Sadly, it is the law. People are entitled to be bigots and racists. Doesn't mean we have to tolerate them.

When said person is in a position of power over others, then that is a real and different issue.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Does anyone think that a gay person, or someone who is active in their pro-choice advocacy would be allowed to be Chair of Church on a Hill?

 

[Cursed Cat]

The rank hypocrisy of religious organisations should no longer shock me after a lifetime bearing witness to their odious brand of bullshit, and yet … I truly hope (pray!!) that this current issue fast-tracks the conversation surrounding the incompatibility of religion with a modern progressive society.

Imagine vilifying and demonising entire sections of society behind the ‘sanctity’ of a church’s unearned protective umbrella only to piss and moan when you’re called out on your ludicrous ‘beliefs’ - grow the F up and piss off.

 

[gouki88]

So homophobic views are ok as long as you're not the CEO? I generally don't understand how the pitch fork mob see the need for the CEO to step down but are ok with this. This is a direct homophobic action but gets a free pass

Define "ok". There is nothing actionable to do about someone who is homophobic in their private life beyond try to change their perspective, and ensure people like that aren't in positions of power over others.

 

[zeggie]

Does anyone think that a gay person, or someone who is active in their pro-choice advocacy would be allowed to be Chair of Church on a Hill?

Exactly. Would never happen. Further, they can make sure it doesn't happen because religious groups successfully had laws added to benefit them in our discrimination laws a long time ago. Churches/groups are allowed to discriminate in their churches/groups. No one else is tho. Just them.

 

[madmug]

Define "ok". There is nothing actionable to do about someone who is homophobic in their private life beyond try to change their perspective, and ensure people like that aren't in positions of power over others.

Beliefs are one thing.

Being in a power position to inflict them on others who may disagree, is another thing altogether.

Religion is an unfortunate fact of life.

Like smoking, it is legal. At least we can legally protect minors & nonsmokers from cancer sticks.

Anyway.

 

[Jetafl]

Would the appointment have been OK if he was simply a member of the church and not its Chair?

Note: I vehemently disagree with the church's views, just trying to get my head around the issue.

They said last night I think it was on Fox trading day that that Barham gave him an ultimatum step down from the church board or step down at the Bombers.

I also disagree with his church views but if he was only a member of the congregation based on what Fox said things would be different.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

They said last night I think it was on Fox trading day that that Barham gave him an ultimatum step down from the church board or step down at the Bombers.

I also disagree with his church views but if he was only a member of the congregation based on what Fox said things would be different.

No it wouldn't
Israel Falou was only a member of a church and look what happened.

 

[AceAndy]

Would the appointment have been OK if he was simply a member of the church and not its Chair?

Note: I vehemently disagree with the church's views, just trying to get my head around the issue.

My sense is probably would be OK. If he was just a member of the church he could say he doesnt adhere to that particular belief but as the head he doesnt have that option.

 

[Brad Goodman]

Would the appointment have been OK if he was simply a member of the church and not its Chair?

It would have less not OK, if that makes sense.

I think the difference is, if you are the Chair then you have a big, and very visible, say in the church's agenda.

 

[gouki88]

No it wouldn't
Israel Falou was only a member of a church and look what happened.

That is nonsense. Folau was "only" practicing hateful speech.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Would the appointment have been OK if he was simply a member of the church and not its Chair?

Note: I vehemently disagree with the church's views, just trying to get my head around the issue.

I think the point is getting missed here.

The appointment is fine regardless, as long as it isn't bad for business.

That's what it always comes down to.

As much as SkyNews and the Herald-Sun (and other MSM too to be fair) want us to believe, and as much as right wing politicians try to con is - this isn't a holy war. This isn't 'left versus right'.

It's just business.


The world has changed, as it has for centuries. Over time, simply, people realise that heaps of stuff that goes on is bullshit - Keeping slaves, not allowing women to vote, not considering indigenous people human, etc. etc. It's f***ing bullshit and people just start to realise it and not accept it anymore.

It's not lefties. It's just people recognising as we get educated and spend more time mixing with each other, that this stuff is rubbish.

We used to think that God did stuff, then we got smarter and realised that there are actually quite obvious and logical explanations for this stuff. So we move on, and leave previously held views behind us.

There is lots of stuff that we used to believe, but now we're smart enough to know better.

So this isn't a left versus right thing - it's just the world moving forward. It's always happened.

This is ultimately just capitalism at play.

People buy stuff that they like. As mentioned above, what people like is different to what it was years ago.

So if businesses want to survive, they must give the customers what they want.

In this part of the world, right now, it's bad for business to have a guy who is Chair of certain type of church, to head up your community focussed sporting club. The customers don't like it.

It's as simple as that.

10-15 years ago, you couldn't have had a gay person head up your footy club. Bad for business. Now, it's arguably good for business.

This is why people scratch their heads at the hypocrisy and contradictions that go on. Because they're barking up the wrong tree.
Essendon didn't make a moral or ethical decision - it's a business decision. So it makes perfect sense.

Why do churches change their position on things? Business. Simple. Why do others stand their ground? Business.

 

[zeggie]

No it wouldn't
Israel Falou was only a member of a church and look what happened.

Completely different.

Compare

Thorburn's position and his Chuch's very public and hateful statements.
Folau's (at least get his name correct if you want to make a genuine attempt to discuss...) very public and hateful statements.
Zreika quietly stepping aside from a match due to her personal beliefs, and with the support of her club.

One Of These Things Is Not Like The Others, One of these things just doesn't belong ​

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Exactly. Would never happen. Further, they can make sure it doesn't happen because religious groups successfully had laws added to benefit them in our discrimination laws a long time ago. Churches/groups are allowed to discriminate in their churches/groups. No one else is tho. Just them.

It's probably worth noting that from my understanding, they don't even allow women on their Board.

Bit rich really, this whole thing.

 

[Dave]

No it wouldn't
Israel Falou was only a member of a church and look what happened.

Was he appointed CEO of Rugby Australia? Well, I never!!!

 

[mxett]

I don't know about churches, but in most corporations it is the role of the board to set the vision and the direction of the organisation. While they don't have day-to-day responsibilities in an organisation, they have a clear accountability for how the organisation operates. If the chairman of a corporation is unhappy with senior staff members, they either sack them, or they resign themselves. I've never worked in an organisation where the chairman sits backs and tries to absolve themselves of what their organisation has been doing.

As Chairman, Andrew Thorburn either endorses the theological direction of his church, or he doesn't, but he hasn't done anything about it. In which case he's a shitty chairman.

EDIT: Just to add... to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't come out and refuted the church's position on homosexuality. He simply gave a vague statement that he doesn't agree with everything the church preaches, but didn't cite any examples. He also spouted some vague crap about his time at NAB and creating an inclusive environment... again, without citing any specific examples. IMHO, he could have put the situation to be by making a clear statement... but he didn't.

It's this "hate the sin, not the sinner" bullshit that so many religious people try to get away with. It's like saying "Oh, I don't hate you personally, I just hate the fact that you breath air." It's a load of horseshit.

Churches like this believe homosexual acts are a sin. They also believe sexual acts putside marriage are a sin.

They don't specifically target one or the other

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I must say, it feels good to peruse the morning news and see it all dominated by Essendon scandal. It just feels right, you know?

 

[zeggie]

I must say, it feels good to peruse the morning news and see it all dominated by Essendon scandal. It just feels right, you know?

I almost pity Essendon.


Almost.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I must say, it feels good to peruse the morning news and see it all dominated by Essendon scandal. It just feels right, you know?

Any publicity is good publicity mate.

That's what I am going with anyway.

 

[ferrisb]

I think the point is getting missed here.

The appointment is fine regardless, as long as it isn't bad for business.

That's what it always comes down to.

As much as SkyNews and the Herald-Sun (and other MSM too to be fair) want us to believe, and as much as right wing politicians try to con is - this isn't a holy war. This isn't 'left versus right'.

It's just business.


The world has changed, as it has for centuries. Over time, simply, people realise that heaps of stuff that goes on is bullshit - Keeping slaves, not allowing women to vote, not considering indigenous people human, etc. etc. It's f***ing bullshit and people just start to realise it and not accept it anymore.

It's not lefties. It's just people recognising as we get educated and spend more time mixing with each other, that this stuff is rubbish.

We used to think that God did stuff, then we got smarter and realised that there are actually quite obvious and logical explanations for this stuff. So we move on, and leave previously held views behind us.

There is lots of stuff that we used to believe, but now we're smart enough to know better.

So this isn't a left versus right thing - it's just the world moving forward. It's always happened.

This is ultimately just capitalism at play.

People buy stuff that they like. As mentioned above, what people like is different to what it was years ago.

So if businesses want to survive, they must give the customers what they want.

In this part of the world, right now, it's bad for business to have a guy who is Chair of certain type of church, to head up your community focussed sporting club. The customers don't like it.

It's as simple as that.

10-15 years ago, you couldn't have had a gay person head up your footy club. Bad for business. Now, it's arguably good for business.

This is why people scratch their heads at the hypocrisy and contradictions that go on. Because they're barking up the wrong tree.
Essendon didn't make a moral or ethical decision - it's a business decision. So it makes perfect sense.

Why do churches change their position on things? Business. Simple. Why do others stand their ground? Business.

So, it's not that his views are a problem.

Just that his views are 'not a good look'?

 

[Satan]

I must say, it feels good to peruse the morning news and see it all dominated by Essendon scandal. It just feels right, you know?

Brings backs memories

 

[Dave]

Brings backs memories

I have no idea what either of you are talking about.

 

[North park]

One other part of the Andrew Thorburn saga I have found strange is the references to him being a lifelong Essendon supporter, as if that was a factor in him being appointed as CEO. It was mentioned by David Barham at the appointment and by Thorburn himself in his resignation notice.

I can't recall too many recent instances of this being mentioned in other appointments of club CEOs or senior football roles (North Melbourne did mention the romance of Alastair Clarkson returning to help his former club when he was appointed coach). For example, Brian Cook was appointed as CEO of Carlton this year after successful CEO stints at West Coast and Geelong. And Geoff Walsh was this week appointed as Executive General Manager of Football at St. Kilda after previously holding this role at North Melbourne and Collingwood. I have no idea which clubs these two support/ed but it was clear they were appointed based on their experience and capabilities.

While I understand that Presidents and Board members are generally keen and longtime supporters to take on those honorary positions, clubs announce paid senior executive and coaching roles without highlighting the person being a lifelong supporter of the club.

It seems Essendon operates differently to other clubs in many ways.