Expansion Another Gold Coast team in peril, potential good news for the Suns?

[The_Reaper]

It can be, yes, they are different legal entities. The accountants would have to determine what has been paid by the parent and owed to the parent, but it is highly likely they have lost anything they have lent out to the subsidiary.

The major problem would be if the parent raised debt to help the property arm, ie if that money is gone and they are left holding the baby with the debt then that is something which could still burn the club after the property arm is wound up.

Happened when I was just a boy but that is similar to what James Hardie did?

They knew that asbestos caused cancer so they seperate out their asbestos arm to avoid having to pay too much in compensation.

 

[Tulip]

The Suns giving Bluey this ultimatum really hurts IMO. Support, back and build the team rather than expecting rock star fame after a few years.

Won't last

 

[AngelEyes]

I think the concerning part is Gallop's comments that "we have received reports from our external accountants today that confirm the whole structure at the Titans is under considerable financial stress". That seems a bit more than just the Property Arm being in trouble.

If the main entity hasn't been paying rent (which may be owing to their property arm), has pumped cash into the property arm to keep it afloat or has guaranteed loans relating to the property arm their could be significant issues that bring down the "whole structure". It has been also reported in some media outlets that other suppliers haven't been paid so there is possibly far more to it.

The concerning thing is that some have stated the building will only fetch $11-17m now so it's unlikely that the loans of the property arm will be covered which means even by selling it, that the issue won't necessarily be solved.

The other interesting thing with the property is that there is an agreement with the developer that the building can be only rented out to the Gold Coast Titans and NO ONE ELSE. I assume the Titans got a good deal from the developers to acquire the land. So in order to sell the property you need to find some way to make the original developer happy which may not be easy. You certainly aren't going to fork out even $11m either if you know that you can only rent it to the Titans who are possibly going to go bust and the developer may have some recourse against you ever renting it to anyone else.

It's a sad day for sport.

 

[Tas]

Happened when I was just a boy but that is similar to what James Hardie did?

They knew that asbestos caused cancer so they seperate out their asbestos arm to avoid having to pay too much in compensation.

I don't recall the specifics of that case but it is a fairly common practice now to place investments in a separate entity, especially if it is not a part of your core business.

However, in saying that, financially institutions do not usually lend a significant amount of money to shelf companies without guarantees, that is probably the biggest concern, what debt is tied back to the parent.

For the ARL to be worried that the Titans could collapse without assistance there will be links between the two, it is just a matter of how deep the ties are.

 

[jimbler]

Clive Palmer likes Rugby League and the Gold Coast...

It wouldn't surprise me if he's waiting in the wings until this happens...

the Australian Rugby League Commission was in the process of weighing up what to do with the financially stricken club - including the extreme measure of allowing the Titans to fall over before starting a new team from scratch.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...facing-scrapheap/story-fnca0von-1226306611547

The NRL certainly don't seem interested in helping them out by giving them 2pm/4.30 Saturday home games every week. If any of them have ever been to the Coast, they would know that the last thing locals are looking to do at that time is attend a sporting event......clueless. I have no idea why they aren't getting Saturday night games, but it's great news for the Suns.

If I were a Rugby League fan on the GC, I'd also be p*ssed at the saturation coverage and support the NRL teams in Western Sydney are getting from the NRL/Channel 9 (Footy Show)/Gus Gould at the moment. It's almost as if the NRL has given up on the GC, and that's more great news for the Suns.

 

[NTRabbit]

That's because a premium membership cost $550. - The highest in the league by a mile. It's a terrible deal if you're a fan!

What is your definition of premium?

Adelaide has a premium membership that is $530 base but pushing as high as $625 for premium northern stand seats, and a membership along similar lines designed for corporates which has two tickets for somewhere over $1000

 

[The_Reaper]

What is your definition of premium?

Adelaide has a premium membership that is $530 base but pushing as high as $625 for premium northern stand seats, and a membership along similar lines designed for corporates which has two tickets for somewhere over $1000

West Coast premium is $561 for an individual. Premium Gold is $641 per person and Captain's Club is $706 per person.

 

[krisholio14]

The Suns will be fine.

Unlike the other comps who have tried to steal a march in the region, the AFL have deeper pockets, better management and most importantly, the best sporting product.

The AFL will make it work up there, even if for no other reason than they are stubborn bastards

 

[NTRabbit]

West Coast premium is $561 for an individual. Premium Gold is $641 per person and Captain's Club is $706 per person.

Yeah, AFC Captain's Club with a reserved seat undercover in the Northern Grandstand is $625 per person, that's the most premium ticket you can buy. Gold in the same stand is $450, there's no category between the two, though with the cheapest terrace seats they are $530 and $355 respectively.

Clearly then, at $540 for Gold A and $420 for Gold B, Suns membership is not the most expensive in the league.

 

[1873 United]

Seems like a completely botched job from the outside.

In light of all this how can the NRL allow a club to take on such significant debt? Surely the powers to be are as pathetic as their attempts to draw crowds to games.

Those Northern fools make me laugh.....:-()

 

[Professor Knowall]

Seems like a completely botched job from the outside.

In light of all this how can the NRL allow a club to take on such significant debt? Surely the powers to be are as pathetic as their attempts to draw crowds to games.

Those Northern fools make me laugh.....:-()

Mostly agree - however, the NRL didn't actually "allow a club to take on such significant debt. The Titans are in no way a community based sporting 'club', owned by its members. What the NRL did was issue a license to a private company - that is 80% owned by Micael Searle. Turns out that apart from having a big mouth, he doesn't have much else going for him - certainy no business acumen. It seems the inept NRL were easily conned.

What this shows (like the A-League fiasco) is the perils of private ownership (not to mention the seductive power of empty rhetoric over actual ability).

Having Searle getting his just deserts is not 'a sad day for sport'. Sport is far better off without the likes of Searle and Palmer trying to use it for their own private pleasures. The sooner he goes, the better.

 

[Professor Knowall]

So, in less than 4 years, its all fallen apart fall that loudmouth prick, Searle. It's gone from this - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/afl-needs-gold-mine/story-e6frepf6-1111116410470

AFL needs gold mine

THE only man to establish a major sports club on the Gold Coast predicts the AFL team to be introduced to the region will tally losses totalling more than $100 million in its first five years.
Michael Searle, chief executive of the NRL's Gold Coast Titans, says the AFL's plans are based on a model that will drain cash indefinitely ... Searle said the Titans' private ownership model, as opposed to the AFL's membership-based pursuits, was preferable for the region ...

to this - http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rug...itans-under-20120323-1vpbp.html#ixzz1pwuCCQYI

Searle's debt could drag Titans under

TITANS boss Michael Searle stands to be liable as a result of the club's financial woes after it emerged he personally guaranteed the bank loan at the centre of the debt that threatens to bring the club down.

In another development, the Herald understands that the Titans football club is also a guarantor on the loan, made by the Commonwealth Bank for the building of the Centre of Excellence facility next to Skilled Park. The Titans' property arm owes the bank $15 million - a huge share of their total debt of at least $25m. It is believed Searle, the Titans' managing director and majority owner, personally guaranteed the loan for about $10 million. ... if the bank were to call in the guarantees, he and the football club could be ruined.

The Titans have just weeks to find a way out of their perilous financial position after the Federal Court in Brisbane was told the club's property division was ''prima facie insolvent''. In a potentially critical blow to the club, Reed Constructions, which completed work on the contentious Centre of Excellence facility at Robina, was given the green light to begin bankruptcy proceedings next month.

Lawyers for Reed were successful in their bid to continue the actions started by the Tax Office, and will return to court on April 20 with a view to liquidating the trust, Gold Coast Titans (Property) Pty Ltd. ... in a damning assessment of the Titans' financial state, the accountants hired by the ARL Commission, McGrathNicol, reported this week at least $25 million of debt was deeply intertwined with the football club and could bring it down. This effectively gives the Titans less than 30 days' grace as Reed tries to recoup $943,858 in construction costs plus more than $100,000 in interest, as well as legal costs.

The club has no choice but to hold a fire sale for the Centre of Excellence and another asset, the Titanium Bar in Surfers Paradise. If they fail by April 20, administrators will be called in to liquidate the asset on behalf of creditors. ... In court, Justice John Reeves found in favour of the construction firm, ruling it could begin efforts to have the property arm wound up. ... an audit from ARL Commission accountants suggested the rugby league business had been bleeding cash towards the property arm and was also incurring debts.

 

[RUNVS]

I am sure some sort of deal will be arranged so the Titans will finish the NRL season as the NRL will lose quite a bit of money from their current TV rights deal if they are not able to provide 8 games a week.

 

[Rob]

He put up a personal guarantee? Christ, the bank must have had some serious doubts about the project. Would he even be capable of covering the debt?

As a businessman, Searle comes across as a mega lightweight.

 

[Professor Knowall]

Searle comes across as a Clive Palmer ... without the money.

 

[Black Panther]

Another one bites the dust ...........

http://www.sportal.com.au/basketball-news-display/blaze-future-up-in-the-air-175887

 

[scottwade]

Another one bites the dust ...........

http://www.sportal.com.au/basketball-news-display/blaze-future-up-in-the-air-175887

I know the AFL is in for the long haul, huge investmentl etc, but gee Gold Coast is the Bermuda Triangle of sporting teams.

 

[NTRabbit]

Gold Coast gives the appearance of either being

1) Entirely populated by people who don't care about sport in the slightest bit

2) Full of lightweight businessmen who couldn't manage a root in the Cross, but somehow always own or control the newest franchises.

 

[year of the roo]

Gold Coast gives the appearance of either being

1) Entirely populated by people who don't care about sport in the slightest bit

2) Full of lightweight businessmen who couldn't manage a root in the Cross, but somehow always own or control the newest franchises.

Or both

 

[cos789]

I am sure some sort of deal will be arranged so the Titans will finish the NRL season as the NRL will lose quite a bit of money from their current TV rights deal if they are not able to provide 8 games a week.

Most definitely and another deal arranged for the upcoming TV right.

.

 

[mediumsizered]

Gold Coast gives the appearance of either being

1) Entirely populated by people who don't care about sport in the slightest bit

2) Full of lightweight businessmen who couldn't manage a root in the Cross, but somehow always own or control the newest franchises.

Mostly the latter rather than the former. That is why the Suns have a better chance of being successful. The club has a good mix of football & business people involved & unlike the Titans & Gold Coast United, they have not tried to achieve instant success, instead looking to lay a foundation for the long term.

 

[Oneiros]

Australian sporting Miami.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Gold Coast gives the appearance of either being

1) Entirely populated by people who don't care about sport in the slightest bit

2) Full of lightweight businessmen who couldn't manage a root in the Cross, but somehow always own or control the newest franchises.

A little from column A, a lot from column B.

There's also three other major contributing factors:

1. Gold Coast demographics - the Coast is unlike most other cities as it isn't really "centralized" like Melbourne nor does it have a core CBD. It is a long, thin strip with multiple "hubs". Surfers Paradise is the most well known area, but it has a lowish residential population and no commercial business area.

The Gold Coast is also massive - almost 1,400 square kilometres and the population, generally speaking is spread evenly throughout. These two facts lead to my second point.

2. Public transport - PT on the GC is abysmal. It is basically a single, inland heavy rail line from Brisbane to Varsity Lakes (Robina) with only a few stops on the way. The rest is a fragmented and unreliable bus service. Currently under construction is a Light Rail service from Helensvale inland in the north, which will head south east to Southport and then follow the coast to Broadbeach which is about the middle of the coast. At this stage there are no plans to link it elsewhere to the existing heavy rail unfortunately. IMO the light rail should "loop" back from either Broadbeach or Surfers and go via Metricon to the Nerang Heavy Rail train station. At present a dedicated bus link for this has been proposed. There is talk of the light rail eventually being extended to Coolangatta Airport and the heavy rail also extended from Varsity to the airport.

The upshot is, if you aren't driving, it is very difficult to get anywhere at the moment. A dedicated, intergrated PT system with the Light Rail going directly by Metricon and Skilled Stadium (Titans ground) would significantly boost attendance figures IMO.

3. Grass Roots support - this is a HUGE key to cracking the Gold Coast and one area where I feel the SUNS and the AFL are smashing all other codes. Rugby League and the Titans have been lazy and resting on their laurels based on the GC being RL "heartland". They are failing to capitalize on their advantage of more "incumbent" supporters by not matching the SUNS at all in community involvement.

As for other codes, well community involvement seems (or seemed) to be about zero. None whatsoever. The Coast is a very competitive market place for sports and with so many teams trying to get a foothold here, the hard yards have to be done.

4. Public awareness - The SUNS and the Titans have a natural advantage over other codes when it comes to public awareness due to the size and prominence of the codes. The local paper - the Bulletin - has REALLY got behind the SUNS and there are regularly full back page and multiple page spreads in it. The Brisbane's Courier Mail also has a fair bit of SUNS stuff in it, though it is also obviously more biased to the Broncos and the Lions. There is a lot of TV and radio exposure to for the SUNS and Titans.

All other codes have/had very little exposure, adding to their woes.

So in summary, I think the SUNS are genuinely going about it the right way thus far. Gold Coasters are notoriously fickle and attending sporting events on a regular basis is not at all common when compared to Victoria, SA or WA, so expect crowd figures to fluctuate until the SUNS have a sustained successful period.

If they can keep their profile high, retain the excellent administration they seem to have they will buck the trend on the Coast and go on to be a very long term, successful team.

 

[Demonoid]

A little from column A, a lot from column B.

There's also three other major contributing factors:

1. Gold Coast demographics - the Coast is unlike most other cities as it isn't really "centralized" like Melbourne nor does it have a core CBD. It is a long, thin strip with multiple "hubs". Surfers Paradise is the most well known area, but it has a lowish residential population and no commercial business area.

The Gold Coast is also massive - almost 1,400 square kilometres and the population, generally speaking is spread evenly throughout. These two facts lead to my second point.

2. Public transport - PT on the GC is abysmal. It is basically a single, inland heavy rail line from Brisbane to Varsity Lakes (Robina) with only a few stops on the way. The rest is a fragmented and unreliable bus service. Currently under construction is a Light Rail service from Helensvale inland in the north, which will head south east to Southport and then follow the coast to Broadbeach which is about the middle of the coast. At this stage there are no plans to link it elsewhere to the existing heavy rail unfortunately. IMO the light rail should "loop" back from either Broadbeach or Surfers and go via Metricon to the Nerang Heavy Rail train station. At present a dedicated bus link for this has been proposed. There is talk of the light rail eventually being extended to Coolangatta Airport and the heavy rail also extended from Varsity to the airport.

The upshot is, if you aren't driving, it is very difficult to get anywhere at the moment. A dedicated, intergrated PT system with the Light Rail going directly by Metricon and Skilled Stadium (Titans ground) would significantly boost attendance figures IMO.

3. Grass Roots support - this is a HUGE key to cracking the Gold Coast and one area where I feel the SUNS and the AFL are smashing all other codes. Rugby League and the Titans have been lazy and resting on their laurels based on the GC being RL "heartland". They are failing to capitalize on their advantage of more "incumbent" supporters by not matching the SUNS at all in community involvement.

As for other codes, well community involvement seems (or seemed) to be about zero. None whatsoever. The Coast is a very competitive market place for sports and with so many teams trying to get a foothold here, the hard yards have to be done.

4. Public awareness - The SUNS and the Titans have a natural advantage over other codes when it comes to public awareness due to the size and prominence of the codes. The local paper - the Bulletin - has REALLY got behind the SUNS and there are regularly full back page and multiple page spreads in it. The Brisbane's Courier Mail also has a fair bit of SUNS stuff in it, though it is also obviously more biased to the Broncos and the Lions. There is a lot of TV and radio exposure to for the SUNS and Titans.

All other codes have/had very little exposure, adding to their woes.

So in summary, I think the SUNS are genuinely going about it the right way thus far. Gold Coasters are notoriously fickle and attending sporting events on a regular basis is not at all common when compared to Victoria, SA or WA, so expect crowd figures to fluctuate until the SUNS have a sustained successful period.

If they can keep their profile high, retain the excellent administration they seem to have they will buck the trend on the Coast and go on to be a very long term, successful team.

Publich transport appears to be key then. The titans already have it better with a train station outside their ground. Hopefully, the Suns will benefit from upgraded public transport in time for the Comm Games in 2018. I think an upgrade to Metricon capacity is already on the cards, which will be perfect timing as I expect them to be challenging for the flag in the next 3-5 years. They broke 20k twice last year, so 25k sellouts can't be too far away.