Arjen Robben - is he a diver? Is Crouch a diver too?

[Shinboners]

Re: Epl 25/26/27

Rooney isn't tagged a diver because he isn't cultured and is the English media's love child. Imagine the media frenzy that would've followed had it been Robben that had of ended Arsenal's unbeated run with a solo diving performance on absolutely no contact.

What Rooney did that day was cheating. That's what diving is IMO. And if we assess diving as players falling down on NO CONTACT then Robben has never dived, Rooney has. And unless you can provide me an example otherwise then your argument is flawed, very flawed.

So, what you seem to be saying is the following:

If there is no contact, it's cheating - as in Rooney vs Arsenal.

But if there's minimal contact (we'll use the Reina example), then it's just playacting?

In both cases, a player is trying to get an unfair advantage by sucking in the referee. Therefore, both players cheated - Rooney against Arsenal and Robben against Liverpool.

The main point being, players like Pires, Ronaldo, Robben are all exceptionally skilled foreign players. And were hounded by the press for certain incidents. Pires being the only one guilty of anything IMO.

And there are plenty of other foreign players who don't get hounded.

I don't consider Rooney a diver or a cheat. BUT if he was we'd hardly hear about it.

But I ask the question why hasn't Alan Shearer recevied years of crap in the media for his years of cheating?

It's a valid question.

I agree with you on Shearer.

And it reempahises my point that foreign players receive substantially different treatment from the English media (with exceptions).

With exceptions? A nice little out clause there.

On no contact, no. Unnecessarily, yes. Definition is the key here.

Definition? Geeze, and I thought hiding behind semantics was strictly a Cooldude thing.

But that's exactly what Robben has done this season. And from what I've seen Ronaldo's been the same.

If they both continue, then maybe more will be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

No of course not. Carvalho and Huth both often employ similar tactics. And I never said or implied otherwise. The different is players like Carvalho and Huth don't need to do it as often.

Did you read what I said above about Joe Cole?

Have you heard my opinion on Drogba's actions over the years?

Did you hear me defening SWP from the Newcastle game?

You've only been registered on BigFooty for a month or two and I can't remember you doing anything except defend Chelsea.

Disagree. Referees are as much to blame, as are the opposition. If the fouling isn't there and the referee exercises appropriate control then diving would substantially less of a problem.

No. If managers told their players not to dive, then refs wouldn't have to make the decision, would they?

 

[Shinboners]

Re: Epl 25/26/27

Do you realise Robben was brought down in this match inside the penalty area, the clearest penalty of all-time and the referee waved it away?

I'd rather scratch my eyes out than watch an Aston Villa game.

Hmmmm....who to believe.....Magic Lamps! or a sports journalist......hmmmm

 

[windyhill]

Robben gets fouled more than anyone in the league. His pace and skills with the ball at his feet are too good for any defender in the league.

Because of that he gets fouled more than anybody, and because game after game the opposition chops him down and uses every dirty tactic under the book to stop him he's accused of being a diver because people see him on the ground alot.

I`d love to know how many times Freddie Ljunberg is hacked down , would give Robben a run for his money.

 

[CR7]

Re: Epl 25/26/27

Do you realise Robben was brought down in this match inside the penalty area, the clearest penalty of all-time and the referee waved it away?

So that makes it ok?

And you can add Reina's face tap on Robben as a dive as well.

Or going by your logic, that's a 3/4 dive.

 

[Magic Lamps!]

I`d love to know how many times Freddie Ljunberg is hacked down , would give Robben a run for his money.

I don't think so.

Freddie is a good footballer.

Robben is on another level, superior skill and greater speed.

He'd get fouled more in a game than Freddie would in a season.

 

[Magic Lamps!]

Re: Epl 25/26/27

So that makes it ok?

And you can Reina's face tap on Robben as a dive as well.

Or going by your logic, that's a 3/4 dive.

Whether you consider it a dive or not it isn't the sort of diving I'm talking about. Players pretending to be fit in the face has nothing to do with why I'm defending Robben here.

I'm talking about players falling/diving to the ground from tackles in open play.

Reina's a knob. You don't come out of your box and tackle two footed from behind and then raise your hands to an opposing player.

Reina didn't have anybody to blame for that incident but himself.

 

[CR7]

Re: Epl 25/26/27

Whether you consider it a dive or not it isn't the sort of diving I'm talking about. Players pretending to be fit in the face has nothing to do with why I'm defending Robben here.

I'm talking about players falling/diving to the ground from tackles in open play.

Reina's a knob. You don't come out of your box and tackle two footed from behind and then raise your hands to an opposing player.

Reina didn't have anybody to blame for that incident but himself.

So there are different categories of diving?

Diving in open play is bad, but diving when 'touched' and not in open play is OK?

Notice I said earlier that Reina was deservedly sent off, that doesn't suddenly make Robben's actions acceptable.

It's all well and good to come out and defend a player from the team you support, but being completley ignorant of the facts (i.e. he dives) just makes you look silly.

 

[Embers]

This thread is plain sad, its like watching a grown man tryin to convince himself Santa is real, although I think that is more realistic then what your proposing.

 

[Magic Lamps!]

This thread is plain sad, its like watching a grown man tryin to convince himself Santa is real, although I think that is more realistic then what your proposing.

Are you an Alanis Morisette fan by any chance?

 

[RogerMellie]

What about Wright-Phillips' rubbish effort the other day, getting Robbie Elliot red-carded?

 

[Cooldude]

Answer to the thread: Yes, and no, he's just clumsy and unco

 

[moomba]

Possibly the weakest defence of a cheat I have ever seen.

 

[sainter]

Answer to the thread: Yes, and no, he's just clumsy and unco

Show some respect.

 

[RoosterLad]

Diving is diving. Whether its in open play or not, whether you have been touched slightly (but not enough to go down without forcing yourself to) or not touched at all, or when theres muff involved.
Robben is a clear diver, playacting and diving? Is there really a difference?

 

[Boro]

Possibly the weakest defence of a cheat I have ever seen.

I agree, he's digging himself a hole.

However, I'd like to know whether you think over exagerating contact is cheating?

For example, going down in the box when in reality you could have stayed on your feet?

I hate players who go down with no contact (for example Klinsmann getting Rijkaard sent off in that famous incident re-shown on Badiel and Skinner) however is it cheating to make more of contact when it has been made?

As someone who used to play up front, I don't think it is. It is very frustrating when it goes against you, but imo it's part of the game, in the same way a defender will take rules to the extreme in trying to stop a striker. ( holding onto them at corners, pulling of shirts etc)

ps I'm not really talking about things such as the Rivaldo incident at the WC, which is poor form, but more falling in tackles etc.

 

[windyhill]

I don't think so.

Freddie is a good footballer.

Robben is on another level, superior skill and greater speed.

He'd get fouled more in a game than Freddie would in a season.

Freddie is kicked from one end of the park to the other , he is also more durable than Robben IE , will/can play with injury more than Robben. Robben would be more eye catching, I`d say Freddie scores more.

 

[moomba]

I do think it's cheating, and quite often I reckon it's a very fine line between exaggeration contact and initiating it yourself.

I think the second your actions on the football field are designed to change the opinion of the referee (as opposed to doing your best to win the ball/beat your opponent/score a goal etc) then it goes into the unacceptable territory for me.

FWIW, I get frustrated when I see a lot of the overexaggeration because half the time it's players giving up good scoring opportunities from open play so that they can con the ref into giving up a set piece.

I see what you're saying about the holding shirts and the likes, but to me I don't have so much of a problem with it. Holding a shirt in itself isn't an illegal action, and if you cross the line then it turns into an offence (and chances are a pretty harsh penalty).

 

[DB10]

Freddie is a good footballer.

Ljungberg is average. If he's not scoring goals then he's not doing anything.

 

[Boro]

I do think it's cheating, and quite often I reckon it's a very fine line between exaggeration contact and initiating it yourself.

See, imo a striker is perfectly justified in initiating contact to receive a free kick. For example if a defender is about to make a tackle and a forward get his body in the way so that he takes the contact rather than the ball. That's just good play, similar to a defender out positioning or muscling an opponent.

I see what you're saying about the holding shirts and the likes, but to me I don't have so much of a problem with it

You must have been a defender then

 

[moomba]

See, imo a striker is perfectly justified in initiating contact to receive a free kick. For example if a defender is about to make a tackle and a forward get his body in the way so that he takes the contact rather than the ball. That's just good play, similar to a defender out positioning or muscling an opponent.

Theres probably a few different types of intiating contact. The one that I don't like is when someone runs past a defender and sticks his leg out while swan diving into the penalty box. To me unacceptable.

The example above I don't have too many problems with, although I wonder what happened to the footballer who would prefer to beat the defender in that situation so he can try and score a goal in open play. Surely thats the sort of football we all want to see instead of games being decided by free kicks and set piece goals.

You must have been a defender then

Keeper, and I saw more than enough holding of defenders shirts by attacking players to know that it isnt all one way traffic in that regard.

 

[windyhill]

Ljungberg is average. If he's not scoring goals then he's not doing anything.

Are you imbibing ?

 

[DB10]

Not at all. Aside from goal-scoring what does Freddie do? He doesn't create squat - can't cross, doesn't play through-balls or do anything of that sort ... so if he isn't scoring like he used to what good is he?

 

[Boro]

Theres probably a few different types of intiating contact. The one that I don't like is when someone runs past a defender and sticks his leg out while swan diving into the penalty box. To me unacceptable.

Agreed

The example above I don't have too many problems with, although I wonder what happened to the footballer who would prefer to beat the defender in that situation so he can try and score a goal in open play.

I think it's just instict on the part of the striker for the most part. Strikers are always thinking about the easiest way for a side to score. I also think a lot of the time (especially players that don't do a lot of it) diving is also instinct. A good example would be the time Fowler went down in the box and straight away got up to say he wasn't fouled (he was ridiculously booked iirc or maybe the ref still gave the pen. I can't remember). I think he did take a dive, but realised what he'd done and tried to remedy the situation. It was just instinct to go down in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning cheating. But a lot of the time it's second nature imo.

Keeper, and I saw more than enough holding of defenders shirts by attacking players to know that it isnt all one way traffic in that regard.

True.

 

[windyhill]

Not at all. Aside from goal-scoring what does Freddie do? He doesn't create squat - can't cross, doesn't play through-balls or do anything of that sort ... so if he isn't scoring like he used to what good is he?

Oh well, we`d better ******** him off then.

 

[Cooldude]

so if he isn't scoring like he used to what good is he?

Introduce his teammates to some Calvin Klein underwear?