AUKUS

[Baltimore Jack]

So Australians have to use $400 billion submarines to sink Chinese cargo ships and oil tankers in the Southern Ocean and kill thousands of Chinese sailors for what? To keep white people on top?

To prop up the economy of the USA

This is the real issue here

 

[QuietB]

Your quick google search sucks arse dude.
Really hate it when people put their 2c in and dont know a funking thing about what they are arguing about.

China invaded tibet in 1950

From the Archives, 1950: China invades Tibet

For much of its history, the Chinese had claimed sovereignty over Tibet. Seventy years ago, the People's Republic of China launched a full-scale invasion of the tiny nation.

amp.smh.com.au

China invaded korea in the 50’s:

Explaining China's Intervention in the Korean War in 1950 - JournalQuest

www.inquiriesjournal.com

Then theres the chinese invasion of vietnam in 1979:

The Bitter Legacy of the 1979 China-Vietnam War

Officially, both sides have tried to forget the bloody conflict. Unofficially, bitterness still runs deep.

thediplomat.com

China invaded india in 1962, took 15000sq miles has never returned it. :

Sino-Indian War | Causes, Summary, & Casualties | Britannica

Sino-Indian War, (October 20–November 20, 1962), conflict between India and China, centred primarily on the disputed Aksai Chin region along those countries’ borders. The partition of India (1947), which took place just as the Cold War began transforming the landscape of international relations

www.britannica.com

Border clashes with india this year and last:

India-China dispute: The border row explained in 400 words - BBC News

Here's what you need to know about the border dispute high in the Himalayas.

www.bbc.com

Uighurs who are a completely different ethnic group wanted to secede in the 1990’s when the soviet union broke up. china sent the troops in and are now involved in genocide:

Why is there tension between China and the Uighurs? - BBC News

The BBC looks at the history of discord between Chinese authorities and the indigenous ethnic Uighur population in the Xinjiang region.

www.bbc.com

You have quoted an intervention, two border disputes and some muslim bashing the Liberals would be proud of if it was done in their name - muslim bashing is a national sport in the west.

 

[Power Raid]

But why?

whether it is Australia, Ukraine, Taiwan, Bhutan etc; we should not accept or dismiss people being subjugated by force

we either believe in human rights or we don't. If we do, we should stand up as a collective and say "stop" to avoid conflict. Then having the capability as a collective to enforce a "stop" is hopefully enough deterrent.

Otherwise it starts with Austria, then czech republic, then poland.

USA interests in Taiwan is the USA's major tech manufacturing - to be used to manufacture s**t they sell to Australians (amongst others) but never pay tax on.

That is not an Australian interest - that is a USA interest.

if we wanted the same tech manufacturing base it would be easier to replicate it here than to have a war over it

especially given we have the raw materials, the ability to enrich and the machine to do it built in the US

so perhaps this isn't about chips

Why should Australia get dragged in. Again, have we found those weapons of mass destruction yet?

yes, china openly discloses their capabilities including WMD but I don't think that is relevant to the issue at hand

The USA are hardly a trustworthy partner. And that is before they elect their next Trump like nut job.

agree

We sell rocks and lobsters and do SFA else. Maybe Australia should stick to selling rocks and lobsters. And if we are worried about defence then maybe we actually build a defence - not help the USA forward project USA power.

at the end of the day Australia needs to consider what is best for Australia. If we feel defending ourselves and only ourselves is the right thing, then we will do that.

if we feel that a world order that respects human rights, respects international law etc is in our own interest, then we will defend that.

what I think some are missing in this discussion is we aren't building a capability to go to war. We are building a capability to avoid war. Would russia have invaded the ukraine if the ukraine was part of NATO or had US capabilities themselves?

 

[Kwality]

Sacrifice for what?

Us. Like it or not.

Attack the politicians all you like, leave the poor bastards that paid the sacrifice in peace.

 

[Schneebly11]

Us. Like it or not.

Attack the politicians all you like, leave the poor bastards that paid the sacrifice in peace.

No they didn't.

It's a dishonour to pretend to everyone in war "Sacrificed their lives for us". It actually leads to more warmongering as it stops criticism of war using the "you don't support our troops" line.

Every Australian should remember how each government tricked respective generations into fighting foreign conflicts that had nothing to do with us. If we lost that then that's a bigger spit in the face of war dead than any comment from an anti-war protestor/anti-AUKUS critic.

 

[Demons09]

It's a dishonour to pretend to everyone in war "Sacrificed their lives for us". It actually leads to more warmongering as it stops criticism of war using the "you don't support our troops" line.

Every Australian should remember how each government tricked respective generations into fighting foreign conflicts that had nothing to do with us. If we lost that then that's a bigger spit in the face of war dead than any comment from an anti-war protestor/anti-AUKUS critic.

The good thing is this tripe is a minority view, i guess that stems from voting for that pissant party that is the Greens.

 

[Kwality]

No they didn't.

It's a dishonour to pretend to everyone in war "Sacrificed their lives for us". It actually leads to more warmongering as it stops criticism of war using the "you don't support our troops" line.

Every Australian should remember how each government tricked respective generations into fighting foreign conflicts that had nothing to do with us. If we lost that then that's a bigger spit in the face of war dead than any comment from an anti-war protestor/anti-AUKUS critic.

Yes, I was critical of the low lifes that tried to use the troops in Vietnam for their own lazy political purposes.
There are only losers in war - who filled you with ignorance of our history, good & bad.

 

[Demons09]

Yes, I was critical of the low lifes that tried to use the troops in Vietnam for their own lazy political purposes.
There are only losers in war - who filled you with ignorance of our history, good & bad.

Mate these clowns would have spat on our armed forces as their ancestors did then.

 

[Rob R]

The US wiped out about 100 million Native Americans, many by infecting them with Small Pox
The US murdered about 12 million African Slaves
The UK strarved about 5 million Indian's under Churchill's ordersl

Your turn

Any examples from the last 100 years or that are continuing?

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[Rob R]

Like Keating said …. When are we putting sanctions on India?

Like all of Keatings attempts at excusing Chinese behaviour, false equivalence. India not nirvana but hardly the same - no concentration camps for millions, forced sterilisations, threats to invade and kill millions in peaceful democratic neighbours, occupation and militarisation of neighbouring countries Islands etc

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[Rob R]

That's a big exaggerarion and totally irrelevent to us putting the country into debt for buying 8 useless submarines.
China isn't going to invade Australia, they have no history of invading western countries.
Why aren't you mentioning other countries with human rights abuses like North Korea,Yeman, Iran, Syria, Burma, Sudan and Russia(and Australia)? Should we be preparing for war with them as well?

Those countries aren't the topic of this thread and aren't threatening to invade others and actually seizing territory.


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[Festerz]

Malcolm Turnbull has joined Keating in criticising AUKUS today:

Yes.

But prefer hearing from Turnbull himself rather than the SMH/Age mangling of its intent. His interview on RN this morning in full:

Malcolm Turnbull raises concerns with AUKUS deal - ABC listen

After a scathing speech from Former Labor Prime Minister Paul Keating, Former Liberal PM Malcolm Turnbull has also voiced his concerns with the monumental AUKUS deal. Turnbull says while his concerns are more limited, and that while there is no "turning back" from the agreement, there are...

t.co

And an additional comment from Turnbull in relation to doubts over UK propulsion abilities:

 

[Rob R]

That's why China aren't the threat people are making out. If they have to kill and imprison tens of millions of their own just to keep the peace internally, empire building is going to take second place to maintaining CCP control over the country.

Because he has promised to take Taiwan and will happily murder millions of Taiwanese to do it. It is also thr oldest trick in the book (and one westerners have historically used) start a war to distract from your internal failures.

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[Romeoh1]

Yes, I was critical of the low lifes that tried to use the troops in Vietnam for their own lazy political purposes.
There are only losers in war - who filled you with ignorance of our history, good & bad.

Simplistic take.

 

[Taylor]

It may be a lie the troops are convinced of by political interests but if the troops really do feel like they are there so us that remain at home can live and they die to protect our way of life then it's exactly what their deaths stand for.

 

[Cooldude]

How many chicken nuggets can I buy at Maccas for 300 mil? Seems a far better use of the money than this non-sense

 

[Taylor]

How many chicken nuggets can I buy at Maccas for 300 mil? Seems a far better use of the money than this non-sense

You could pay every Australian $450 a year for thirty years. Everyone gets $1.24 a day for thirty years.

The inverse it what it costs.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Those countries aren't the topic of this thread and aren't threatening to invade others and actually seizing territory.


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The China is taking over the world thing is overblown and xenophobic imo.
Westerners are welcome over there, they just want to continue their economic development , pull more people out of poverty and get some respect for what they have achieved.
If there is a great Satan in the world, it's America , their bullying military, their racism, all there homelessness and drug problems, and the worst of capitalism on display.
Look at the Trump presidency, absolutely disgusting.

 

[Cooldude]

You could pay every Australian $450 a year for thirty years. Everyone gets $1.24 a day for thirty years.

The inverse it what it costs.

What the **** are you talking about? This has nothing to do with what I posted

 

[Taylor]

What the * are you talking about? This has nothing to do with what I posted

Sure it is. You were questioning the value being spent, I was putting it in real terms. It's a buck and a quarter per person every single day for thirty years to afford these boats.

It's obscenely expensive.

It works out to roughly a ten pack of mcnuggets per person per week for thirty years.

Sooo... 421,200,000,000 mcnuggets

 

[Kwality]

Simplistic take.

It had to be.

 

[Cooldude]

Sure it is. You were questioning the value being spent, I was putting it in real terms. It's a buck and a quarter per person every single day for thirty years to afford these boats.

It's obscenely expensive.

It works out to roughly a ten pack of mcnuggets per person per week for thirty years.

Sooo... 421,200,000,000 mcnuggets

You're putting it in the dumbest, selective arbitary metric as possible to make the numbers as conveniently small to suit your argument as possible

I am asking a simple, non-serious, joke question: how many chicken nuggets can you buy with 300 million at Maccas? Who the **** suddenly splits it into money paid over 30 years to every Australian? Some psycho response

I still remember you nitpicking costs over climate change action as well, if only I am as weaselly in my arguments as you are then I would've done this same stupid metric shit

 

[Taylor]

You're putting it in the dumbest, selective arbitary metric as possible to make the numbers as conveniently small to suit your argument as possible

I am asking a simple, non-serious, joke question: how many chicken nuggets can you buy with 300 million at Maccas? Who the * suddenly splits it into 30 years over every Australian? Some psycho response

Well, the 368 billion is supposed to be the price over 30 years and they've made the case that it will create 20,000 jobs. Which works out to $600,000 per job every year for thirty years.

So what argument am I making? That it's not cheap at all? Do we disagree that it's obscenely expensive? Do you think this is somehow cheap?

A dollar and a quarter per human every day for thirty years is really expensive.

I haven't even mentioned that given most of the people who work aren't contributing to the surplus cash supply once you factor in their benefits and government spending on them - the top 30% of income earners will be paying about $5 in tax each every day for the thirty years this program is supposed to exist.

It's a massive tax burden.

 

[Cooldude]

Well, the 368 billion is supposed to be the price over 30 years and they've made the case that it will create 20,000 jobs. Which works out to $600,000 per job every year for thirty years.

So what argument am I making? That it's not cheap at all? Do we disagree that it's obscenely expensive? Do you think this is somehow cheap?

A dollar and a quarter per human every day for thirty years is really expensive.

I haven't even mentioned that given most of the people who work aren't contributing to the surplus cash supply once you factor in their benefits and government spending on them - the top 30% of income earners will be paying about $5 in tax each every day for the thirty years this program is supposed to exist.

It's a massive tax burden.

No one ****ing asked, lol. How did you turn a simple joke question into dumbass propaganda no one asked for?

I was joking about chicken nuggets, who the hell turns it into full on right wing spin doctoring by whooshing the joke? Oh right it's Taylor, of course it's Taylor

 

[Rob R]

The China is taking over the world thing is overblown and xenophobic imo.
Westerners are welcome over there, they just want to continue their economic development , pull more people out of poverty and get some respect for what they have achieved.
If there is a great Satan in the world, it's America , their bullying military, their racism, all there homelessness and drug problems, and the worst of capitalism on display.
Look at the Trump presidency, absolutely disgusting.

If they just want the above, why do they threaten war if pollies visit a small country nearby? They can't be scared of Taiwan's tiny military so it must be that they are worried more and more of their people (or serfs more accurately for all but the rich) will realise how much richer and better China would have been if the CCP wasn't in charge. A CCP that is only in charge because it largely chickened out of WW2 (Mao choosing to hide out raping your girls than fight) while the brave Chinese people and nationalists fought courageously against the Japanese.

The US Is far from perfect but you don't get jailed there for saying so. The CCP govt is probably the most racist on the planet and is all about the power and wealth of their leader not the people. Till a few years back, you were right though but when Xi rose to power (pre Trump), he started taking thr place backwards.

Noone is talking about Xi (he is the threat to the world not China or the Chinese) taking over the world, just his neighbours who are peaceful nations doing nothing to cause his psychotic acts (he is actually very Trump like with the increased power of being able to kill or arrest any opponents).

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