AUKUS

[sataris]

Can we agree on the pronunciation of AUKUS as Orcas.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

You missed the discussion earlier about our refining capacity (or lack thereof) and the primary objective of keeping the sea lanes to Singapore open.

Irrespective of what subs we buy, or any subsequent policy stance, Jindalee and Pine Gap would be prime targets for China if they attacked Taiwan. We could declare neutrality and it would make zero difference if both facilities are operating.

If the primary objective is to keep sea lanes from Singapore open, then I imagine this relates to keeping oil flowing to Australia?

Sure a good investment would be to accelerate the electrification of our transport sector. Never understood why this wasn't looked at as a national interest issue.

A portion of that $300 billion would be pretty handy to help out.

 

[sataris]

If the primary objective is to keep sea lanes from Singapore open, then I imagine this relates to keeping oil flowing to Australia?

Sure a good investment would be to accelerate the electrification of our transport sector. Never understood why this wasn't looked at as a national interest issue.

A portion of that $300 billion would be pretty handy to help out.

The solution should not be one or the other.

It should be the move away from coal,
It should be the ability to protect/attack far from our own shores (SSN)
It should be the ability to protect/attack close to our own shores (Collins replacement)
It should be diplomacy to diffuse the situation.

 

[peetoo]

Oh so just hope they dont decide to just say for instance tell us how much we will charge for our resources? Or insist that only chinese firms can exploit our resources, then set a price of cost + $1 oer ton.

And if we dont agree, board all ships coming to australia for inspections and reject those that are unsafe or paperwork isnt correct etc etc etc?

Or of course just annex half of WA and just take what they want.


All of this has been done over and over and over throughout the centuries. What in chinas actions this far indicates that their actions in the future will be benign?

Again i will point to their actions when australia asked for an international inquiry to the origins of covid…. A trade war.

They sent businesses all over australia broke because we wanted an inquiry into a disease that killed millions worldwide. That’s who we are dealing with.

Yes we taught them well……

You are describing what happened when aus was a colony of Britain and exploited thus. We still joined in their wars. How dumb are we

 

[QuietB]

Has China actually invaded anyone in the last few hundred years? A quick Google search says they invaded Vietnam in the 1400’s and Japan a few hundred years before that.

Meanwhile the USA has invaded how many nation’s in the last 100 years?

The narrative around all of this is insane

 

[kranky al]

Paul Keating at the National Press Club earlier today talking about the sub deal. PK has lot a bit of his sharpness in his twilight years but none of his acidity. He swats away journos asking superficial rhetorical questions like he would deal with blowflies at a barbie.

Always entertaining but more importantly he makes some very important points about the operational characteristics of the US attack class boats which are worth proper discussion.



Also interesting to note that the Australian/US Government funded Australian Strategic Policy Institute have today posted coverage of the study I linked earlier on the increasing detection risk for large submarines:

Measure / Countermeasure

Sonars invented, anechoic tiles
Passive sonar invented, machinery isolated from hull and quietened
Cant hear in baffles, towed arrays invented.

So far the western world has always been able to keep a generation ahead. The us and the uk subs are more than a generation ahead of Chinas subs.

 

[kranky al]

Yes we taught them well……

You are describing what happened when aus was a colony of Britain and exploited thus. We still joined in their wars. How dumb are we

This is where you lot keep missing the point.

We did teach them well - really funking well. The US has provided a perfect example of a nation coming of age and then stretching its wings.

What do you think they plan to do if they get on top?

What given chinas behaviour as a nation in the last half a century makes you think they will be benign?

Hong kong? One china two systems? Oh that’s right, that doesnt exist any more.

Their treatment of Uighurs? Yeah nah

What about how they treat their own people? Errr torture and arbitrary executions.

WHAT?

What does a country have to do to make you suspicious of their intentions??

 

[TheEscapeClub]

The main cost I am worried about is opportunity cost.

The massive multi-generational investment in enhancing Australia's defence capabilities in the face of enhanced global security threats is not without strong logical underpinnings.

But it is an investment that will be made by diverting billions of dollars from other public services.

Also thinking about the 'free-rider' effect for countries like New Zealand who get all the benefits of a massive enhanced defensive presence in our region of the world without the consequential budget impact.

Kiwis have been sponging off us for decades. The literally have no defence force these days and when their economy crashes, they all head over here. It's easy to virtue signal when they have Australia to carry the weight all the time.

They're a bigger version of Tasmania.

 

[kranky al]

You've made this pivot before and it's a fair point, but going out of one's way to assume irrationality is akin to running government policy on an opposite day setting.

Tell you what. I'll refrain from calling you a racist for perpetuating Yellow Peril rhetoric if you refrain from telling me I'm advocating appeasement when at no point have I mentioned slowing the ramp up of military production.

When you are arguing with multiple folk on the same topic it gets muddled.

Sound good?

Ukraine... which is a next. Door. Neighbour.

If you watch what happened in ww2 - first it starts with next door neighbours - poland france.

But something a war machine chews up like nothing else on earth - resources.

So nek minut africa and the middle east are in a war that has literally nothing to do with them. Theyve got rommel and monty going back and forth trashing the joint arguing over THEIR SHIT!!!

Countries that can produce the most shit tend to win wars. China can easily outproduce any other country - but they need the resources and dont have iron…. Which we do.

We have almost all the resources they need, russia can supply the rest.

 

[peetoo]

This is where you lot keep missing the point.

We did teach them well - really funking well. The US has provided a perfect example of a nation coming of age and then stretching its wings.

What do you think they plan to do if they get on top?

What given chinas behaviour as a nation in the last half a century makes you think they will be benign?

Hong kong? One china two systems? Oh that’s right, that doesnt exist any more.

Their treatment of Uighurs? Yeah nah

What about how they treat their own people? Errr torture and arbitrary executions.

WHAT?

What does a country have to do to make you suspicious of their intentions??

Who said I wasn’t suspicious?

You mentioned covid.you bang on about one of scomos deflections. The real story is we are industrially and economically neutered.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Rockingham WA is also a good bet I'd say.

$8b upgrade, wow!

 

[TheEscapeClub]

we should take all their waste if we were smart

We should take everyones's.

 

[kranky al]

Kiwis have been sponging off us for decades. The literally have no defence force these days and when their economy crashes, they all head over here. It's easy to virtue signal when they have Australia to carry the weight all the time.

They're a bigger version of Tasmania.

And weve been sponging off the yanks.

Which till recently i was happy enough to do, we paid the price in blood in wars that had nothing do do with us and kept our military small, very professional and able to expand rapidly with operational experience and a large officer / nco corps ready to train in case of a large war.

But Donald Trump showed us that America wont always have a stable steady hand at the wheel.

Australia needs to look to itself for defence now, the days of relying on an ally who seemed predictable and solid are gone.

 

[Juddism]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and **** me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

 

[peetoo]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and * me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

Call me cynical, it’s conditioning the aus public for nuclear power generally

 

[peetoo]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and * me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

Describing it as an arms ‘race’ sic

 

[Power Raid]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and * me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

What does china’s nuclear submarine fleet look like in comparison to our plan (in context to the broader western alliance including the EU and India?)

 

[BigTacoBandit]

The solution should not be one or the other.

It should be the move away from coal,
It should be the ability to protect/attack far from our own shores (SSN)
It should be the ability to protect/attack close to our own shores (Collins replacement)
It should be diplomacy to diffuse the situation.

I wasn't arguing one or the other - just pointing out that the electrification of our transport systems should be considered from a national interest and strategic defence perspective.

Can't blockade our electrical network as easily as oil shipments.

 

[Taylor]

I bet you just call your Turtle, "Turtle"

I have no idea what you've been on about all this time you've been getting dunked on in arguments

 

[QuietB]

I wasn't arguing one or the other - just pointing out that the electrification of our transport systems should be considered from a national interest and strategic defence perspective.

Can't blockade our electrical network as easily as oil shipments.

But it’s not gonna tow you boat. It’s not gonna tow your caravan. China’s gonna steal your weekend

 

[Power Raid]

If the primary objective is to keep sea lanes from Singapore open, then I imagine this relates to keeping oil flowing to Australia?

Sure a good investment would be to accelerate the electrification of our transport sector. Never understood why this wasn't looked at as a national interest issue.

A portion of that $300 billion would be pretty handy to help out.

An Australian company is developing hydrogen on demand. The US DoD and DoE have picked in up as it delivers energy security without the need for sea lanes to remain open.

Meanwhile Australia is watching this go offshore to the UK and US

 

[Taylor]

If the primary objective is to keep sea lanes from Singapore open, then I imagine this relates to keeping oil flowing to Australia?

Sure a good investment would be to accelerate the electrification of our transport sector. Never understood why this wasn't looked at as a national interest issue.

A portion of that $300 billion would be pretty handy to help out.

It's a while away from an electric truck or electric transport ship, arguably the largest consumers of oil.

Electric vehicles lose a lot of range as soon as they are pulling a heavy load.

 

[peetoo]

Lots of ships are deisel electric

 

[Power Raid]

It's a while away from an electric truck or electric transport ship, arguably the largest consumers of oil.

Electric vehicles lose a lot of range as soon as they are pulling a heavy load.

Lots of ships are deisel electric

50% of Australian diesel is consumed in remote townships and applications 20MW or less. This is a huge challenge that I feel hydrogen is the most logical solution.

In regards to ships ammonia and similar chemicals are being explored. From a 'port" perspective 90% of their CO2 emissions are unsurprisingly the ships rather than the ports themselves.

Medium term, I see a modified version of this as the solution for shipping

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Has China actually invaded anyone in the last few hundred years? A quick Google search says they invaded Vietnam in the 1400’s and Japan a few hundred years before that.

Meanwhile the USA has invaded how many nation’s in the last 100 years?

The narrative around all of this is insane

Totally agree