AUKUS

[Aristotle Pickett]

Keating is absolutely spot on here.
Albanese chose this deal for purely a political reason, fear of wedging from Dutton.
Albanese is proving to be a very weak leader and is not acting in Australia's interests one bit.

Keating is right to criticize Albanese.

Paul Keating savages AUKUS nuclear submarine deal as Labor's worst since conscription - ABC News 'Worst deal in all history': Former Labor PM Paul Keating savages AUKUS submarine deal

 

[Schneebly11]

Totally agree

In terms of an invasion to overthrow a government, no. They went into Korea in the 1950’s to halt the US advance as some Americans at the time were talking about going all the way to Beijing including using nuclear weapons (the US had the only stockpiles at the time) so that could be classified as self defence. Have had border clashes with India, but these clashes occurred no more than a few miles from disputed borders and were limited with only some artillery shells and minor ground combat. A two week incursion into Vietnam in the 70s over political differences that never went more than 80km from the border, and then some anti piracy shipping operations in the ME. That’s it, no long range large scale invasions launched to topple foreign governments.

The US on the other hand………

 

[rank and file]

Has China actually invaded anyone in the last few hundred years? A quick Google search says they invaded Vietnam in the 1400’s and Japan a few hundred years before that.

Meanwhile the USA has invaded how many nation’s in the last 100 years?

The narrative around all of this is insane

China plays Go,the long game.
The west plays chess.
The subs are a Go move from Australia.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

While it played well with the Twitter set, I thought it was a surprisingly intellectually dishonest performance from Keating in a lot of ways.

Found it particularly interesting that he framed the "threat" squarely in terms of invasion by ground troops and flew off the handle at anyone who disagreed with that framework.

Completely ignored the threat posed by maritime blockade (far more likely than direct invasion) and attendant economic coercion. (Which he hand-waved away - despite the significant impact it's already had on Australia's economy.)

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

"For $360 billion, we're going to get eight submarines. It must be the worst deal in all history," Mr Keating said.



Australian, American and British officials have cited the growth of China's military as a key reason for Australia needing nuclear-powered submarines.

Mr Keating dismissed China's growing military as posing a threat to Australia.

"Let me say this: China has not threatened us," he said.

Mr Keating, who said he spoke for both Labor politicians and grassroots members who felt they could not speak out, said nothing short of a Chinese naval fleet heading for Australia should be considered a threat.

"We wouldn't need submarines to sink an armada, an armada of Chinese boats and troop ships," he told the press club. "We'd just do it with planes and missiles."

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

While it played well with the Twitter set, I thought it was a surprisingly intellectually dishonest performance from Keating in a lot of ways.

Found it particularly interesting that he framed the "threat" squarely in terms of invasion by ground troops and flew off the handle at anyone who disagreed with that framework.

Completely ignored the threat posed by maritime blockade (far more likely than direct invasion) and attendant economic coercion. (Which he hand-waved away - despite the significant impact it's already had on Australia's economy.)

There's absolutely no need for nuclear submarines at that ridiculous price.
They will be completely useless compared to China's arsenal and China are never going to invade us anyway.
Albanese has been sucked in by Hawkish America and UK and who are on the other side of the world and are irrelevent to us .
It's a sad day when Dutton's war mongering wins the day.

 

[QuietB]

While it played well with the Twitter set, I thought it was a surprisingly intellectually dishonest performance from Keating in a lot of ways.

Found it particularly interesting that he framed the "threat" squarely in terms of invasion by ground troops and flew off the handle at anyone who disagreed with that framework.

Completely ignored the threat posed by maritime blockade (far more likely than direct invasion) and attendant economic coercion. (Which he hand-waved away - despite the significant impact it's already had on Australia's economy.)

Why would Australia care about a China maritime blockade? If China are doing that we are not selling them anything anymore. Everyone else we can reach by alternative routes.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Our country is going backwards and wasting our resources to shore up other countries interests.
8 subs for $45 billion each. What a ****ing joke.
Albanese/Dutton, spot the difference.

 

[Power Raid]

Has China actually invaded anyone in the last few hundred years? A quick Google search says they invaded Vietnam in the 1400’s and Japan a few hundred years before that.

Meanwhile the USA has invaded how many nation’s in the last 100 years?

The narrative around all of this is insane

they have tried to invade taiwan twice

not to mention they over the legitimate government in their own nation

tibet anyone? philipines? bhutan? the uyghurs are kazakhs....south korea?

china backed the khmer-rouge and then attacked vietnam (north vietnam) in response to dealing with the khmer rouge.



In terms of the narrative is insane..........are you suggesting ignoring China's declaration of war within a time frame of 5 years shortened to 2 would be insane or china's declaration is insane?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

they have tried to invade taiwan twice

not to mention they over through a democratically elected government in their own nation

tibet anyone? philipines? bhutan? the uyghurs are kazakhs....south korea?

china backed the khmer-rouge and then attacked vietnam (north vietnam) in response to dealing with the khmer rouge.



In terms of the narrative is insane..........are you suggesting ignoring China's declaration of war within a time frame of 5 years shortened to 2 would be insane or china's declaration is insane?

Good try but the British Empire and England win by a mile.
They haven't invaded any large country at all .
They've pulled 350 million people out of poverty in the last 20 years whilst homeless numbers grow in Western countries.
Have a look at the bad actors the US has backed.
Provoking a war with the world's soon-to-be biggest econonic power, is pure insanity .
Their military build is exactly the same as every rising economic power in history but they are not taking over other countries like other countries did.
Get some perspective.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Why would Australia care about a China maritime blockade? If China are doing that we are not selling them anything anymore. Everyone else we can reach by alternative routes.

For instance, we have just under two and a bit months of stored fuel and are completely reliant on resupply from our additional reserves in the US and/or resupply from the Middle East; comparatively easy for an aggressive foreign power to stick a couple of next gen subs off Darwin, Perth and Sydney (the only three harbours set up for large fuel imports) and make that a significant problem.

Likewise, in the event of a future situation where the situation in Asia continues to deteriorate, what's to stop a future Chinese Government from parking couple of subs off Port Hedland and demanding we force BHP, Rio, Fortescue et al to immediately halve their sale price of iron ore? Or give it up for free? Might seem outlandish, but no more so than Keating's suggestion that a massive invasion fleet is the only feasible threat posed to Australia.

I can't say I'm a huge fan of everything about this deal, but I think people delude themselves as to just how far behind the eight ball we are in terms of national defence - particularly when it comes to vulnerable infrastructure and communities right along the west coast. This (particularly the immediate rotations through HMAS Stirling) goes some way to (at least) beginning to address that

 

[Festerz]

For instance, we have just under two and a bit months of stored fuel and are completely reliant on resupply from our additional reserves in the US and/or resupply from the Middle East; comparatively easy for an aggressive foreign power to stick a couple of next gen subs off Darwin, Perth and Sydney (the only three harbours set up for large fuel imports) and make that a significant problem.

So isn't the intelligent thing to do (and a heck of a lot cheaper, quicker and something with greater certainty than buying a few subs) is to do some hard policy work and international negotiations around restoring oil refining capacity and fuel security in Australia?

 

[Power Raid]

Good try but the British Empire and England win by a mile.
They haven't invaded any large country at all .
They've pulled 350 million people out of poverty in the last 20 years whilst homeless numbers grow in Western countries.
Have a look at the bad actors the US has backed.
Provoking a war with the world's soon-to-be biggest econonic power, is pure insanity .
Their military build is exactly the same as every rising economic power in history but they are not taking over other countries like other countries did.
Get some perspective.

your response is simple madness.

this isn't about justifying the wrongs of one nation by comparing them to the wrongs of the british or the US. That's like backing and supporting world conflict like it's a footy team.

and yes, china has done wonders for their nation and we should celebrate that and every other positive achievement globally.

and no, the US or others are not provoking war. China has declared a timeline for war..........I can't understand how anyone can turn this declaration around on the US. Can you provide an explanation?

I have provided examples of where they have and also note they have brutally subjugated many people using brute force gain control of their nation and maintain that control. How many people do you think the Chinese government would have killed? How many 10s of millions have been murdered, starved to death or slaughtered through other means?

Personally the answer to that question is irrelevant. rather it simply highlights we shouldn't cheer lead.

 

[kranky al]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and * me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

Since ww2 weve had countless wars.

How many have nukes played a factor in?

 

[kranky al]

Good try but the British Empire and England win by a mile.
They haven't invaded any large country at all .
They've pulled 350 million people out of poverty in the last 20 years whilst homeless numbers grow in Western countries.
Have a look at the bad actors the US has backed.
Provoking a war with the world's soon-to-be biggest econonic power, is pure insanity .
Their military build is exactly the same as every rising economic power in history but they are not taking over other countries like other countries did.
Get some perspective.

Might wanna have a look at some of the countries they havnt invaded. Start with vietnam and tibet.

 

[kranky al]

your response is simple madness.

this isn't about justifying the wrongs of one nation by comparing them to the wrongs of the british or the US. That's like backing and supporting world conflict like it's a footy team.

and yes, china has done wonders for their nation and we should celebrate that and every other positive achievement globally.

and no, the US or others are not provoking war. China has declared a timeline for war..........I can't understand how anyone can turn this declaration around on the US. Can you provide an explanation?

I have provided examples of where they have and also note they have brutally subjugated many people using brute force gain control of their nation and maintain that control. How many people do you think the Chinese government would have killed? How many 10s of millions have been murdered, starved to death or slaughtered through other means?

Personally the answer to that question is irrelevant. rather it simply highlights we shouldn't cheer lead.

But when the roman empire was top dog they did this
But when the mongol empire was on top they did this
But when the spanish empire was on top they did this
But when the Portuguese empire was on top they did this
But when the english empire was on top they did this
But when the us empire was on top they did this

HOWEVER when the chinese dictatorship thats killed millions and tortured and imprisoned millions more reach the top they will be like that…

 

[Power Raid]

So isn't the intelligent thing to do (and a heck of a lot cheaper, quicker and something with greater certainty than buying a few subs) is to do some hard policy work and international negotiations around restoring oil refining capacity and fuel security in Australia?

unfortunately no and same for the US

In the case of the US they consume heavy crude but produce light crude. so they either need to invest in retooling their O&G infrastructure or invest in their military to keep the sea lanes open.

why would one waste money retooling their O&G infrastructure if its future is being challenged by renewables, hydro and nuclear? then add to not only retooling their own infrastructure but everyone else globally.

Then to consider O&G isn't the only thing sea lanes are required for, so we will still need to invest in the military on top of that retooling.

 

[Schneebly11]

they have tried to invade taiwan twice

Hyperbole. The clashes in the Taiwan strait in 1954 and 1958 were hangovers from the Chinese Civil War with shelling of the island near the mainland not Taiwan proper. In no way were they attempted invasions to overthrow KMT control of Taiwan.

Philipines?

Are you talking about the time some Filipino warships boarded a Chinese fishing vessel in the SCS in 2012? That’s an attempted Chinese invasion? WTF are you talking about?

the uyghurs are kazakhs...

No they aren’t. Absolute rubbish. The Turkic Muslims of Xinjiang REQUESTED the Chinese (Qing dynasty) free them from Tibetan Buddhist rule in 1759. The Kazakh nation has never extended into Xinjiang.

.south korea?

China entered Korea in 1950 after the US Army was advancing towards the border and Douglas MacArthur was openly stating in newspapers that the US should invade China, drive to Beijing using nukes if necessary and overthrow the government replacing them with the KMT. That’s pretty much a justification for the Chinese entering the war in self defence.

china backed the khmer-rouge and then attacked vietnam (north vietnam) in response to dealing with the khmer rouge.

The Chinese never intended to overthrow the Hanoi regime and only advanced 80kms into the country for a few weeks. It’s the closest thing they’ve done to a foreign invasion but right on their border and fairly piss weak.

In terms of the narrative is insane..........are you suggesting ignoring China's declaration of war within a time frame of 5 years shortened to 2 would be insane or china's declaration is insane?

When the F have they said that?

 

[Demons09]

We need to in vest in a fleet of Rainbow Warriors.

 

[Rustin Cohle]

Does Aristotle Pickett work for the greens? I swear he spends all day parroting word for word talking points lifted from Adam bandt’s twitter feed.

 

[Power Raid]

But when the roman empire was top dog they did this
But when the mongol empire was on top they did this
But when the spanish empire was on top they did this
But when the Portuguese empire was on top they did this
But when the english empire was on top they did this
But when the us empire was on top they did this

HOWEVER when the chinese dictatorship thats killed millions and tortured and imprisoned millions more reach the top they will be like that…

I really wish nations like sweden, finalnd, denmark and new zealand were dictating to the world how we should be living our lives.

Oh no......social welfare, human rights, universal health care, property rights, sundays off etc etc


The reality is, any nation that wants to control people or other nations by force rarely has anything to offer

 

[Freo Big Fella]

So isn't the intelligent thing to do (and a heck of a lot cheaper, quicker and something with greater certainty than buying a few subs) is to do some hard policy work and international negotiations around restoring oil refining capacity and fuel security in Australia?

Absolutely - but they're not mutually exclusive positions.

Still doesn't change the fact that our current economy is reliant on imports and clear and protected shipping lanes to ensure they're not interrupted. Our navy, at current glance, isn't really capable of ensuring that. Of course, you could completely re-start local manufacturing and on shore industry - but you'd be looking at a far higher price tag and much more upheaval on the average punter.

It'd be interesting to compare this round of hand-wringing with what occurred with the Collins' 30-40 years ago - which went on to be a pretty strategically useful and important bit of equipment in our defence set-up regardless.

 

[Demons09]

Does Aristotle Pickett work for the greens? I swear he spends all day parroting word for word talking points lifted from Adam bandt’s twitter feed.

She’ll be right he can sit in his corner and sing Kum ba ya and the rest of Australia can get on with it.

 

[Schneebly11]

Does Aristotle Pickett work for the greens? I swear he spends all day parroting word for word talking points lifted from Adam bandt’s twitter feed.

As opposed to all the posters here who parrot ASPI propaganda all day long?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

your response is simple madness.

this isn't about justifying the wrongs of one nation by comparing them to the wrongs of the british or the US. That's like backing and supporting world conflict like it's a footy team.

and yes, china has done wonders for their nation and we should celebrate that and every other positive achievement globally.

and no, the US or others are not provoking war. China has declared a timeline for war..........I can't understand how anyone can turn this declaration around on the US. Can you provide an explanation?

I have provided examples of where they have and also note they have brutally subjugated many people using brute force gain control of their nation and maintain that control. How many people do you think the Chinese government would have killed? How many 10s of millions have been murdered, starved to death or slaughtered through other means?

Personally the answer to that question is irrelevant. rather it simply highlights we shouldn't cheer lead.

China have not declared a timeline for war at all. If we start a war who will win, our 8 subs or China's 500 subs?
And so you endorse using a big part of your taxes on this farcial magical submarines?
And you endorse cutting the NDIS and other programs for this folly.