Australia, a growing geopolitical lap dog and not just in the Indo Pacific.

[Carringbush2010]

Bit of a stretch, 50k troops and no ability to project. That's two months of Russian volunteers

The F35's are a nice deterrent but a military power they do not make, I'm not counting the subs we'll never get.

A handy American vassal for whatever expedition they decide to go on next, I agree with your lapdog tag

The source for the ranking is in the op.

It has Aus ranked 16th in military power, after referencing it again just now, we're still 16th in the world.

AFAIK it doesn't take into account boots on the ground, probably because warfare is moving away from the boots on the ground method.

16th in the entire world in no way shape or form represents a nation that's a small backwater that no one takes notice of.

And this is the issue, bad bad people like vlad and xi are aware that we're a high end medium power, and they probably don't like that.

Not the sort of people that you want not liking you.

 

[Carringbush2010]

And those interests being the expansion of liberal democracies most of time. Unless you are trump or george bush (whose quest for venegence trumped all other ideals).

Trump kicked off a trade war cos he is an isolationist. Not because he isnt supportive of authoritarians.

He wants a world where china has its own area, russia has its own area and the usa has its own area and each bully and subjegate and conquer the smaller countries around them for their own gain. All ruled by kings.

A world of darkness as the benefits of trade are completely unwound. Rule of law that protects human rights and smaller nations from being conquered is ripped out? Democracies unravel at home as nationalist dictators take charge claiming they need ultimate power to protect you from foreign invaders as they rip away all your rights. And the fact some of you advocate for this world and for australia to also become isolationist and reject the rule of laws (rather than work to improve and strengthen them) shows negligent naivity at best and a want for cruelty and suffering at worst.

This, absolutely this!

I get a lot of you on the srp board are pissed at the 'west', and for good reason, yeah we get it.

But don't let that blind you all to what the alternative looks like, this is why I advocate hard for Harris to get in because if trump gets in, what seeds has described is what we here in oz don't want.

Yeah ok, the rest of the west will continue to strengthen relationships and you might be of the attitude 'we don't need the US, phuq em' - well you'd be wrong. As much as you all disdain the US (I do too) the wish to cut ties or even wish vengeance on the US coz of that axe you wanna grind is folly.

If we'd ever need military backing, we know the likes of Harris would come to our aid, we know that trump won't.

Yeah ok it sucks that we're puppets on a string for Chuck and Sam, if we weren't for them we'd be for another colonial power, how many of you would rather xi or vlad dictating to us?

Fact of life, we're a lap / attack dog, and we'll do what Chuck and Sam want us to. Accept coz it's much better than the alternative.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah ok it sucks that we're puppets on a string for Chuck and Sam, if we weren't for them we'd be for another colonial power, how many of you would rather xi or vlad dictating to us?

Fact of life, we're a lap / attack dog, and we'll do what Chuck and Sam want us to. Accept coz it's much better than the alternative.

Yeah nah. This is NOT our lot in life, and we should be pursuing the means to divorce ourselves of it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yeah nah. This is NOT our lot in life, and we should be pursuing the means to divorce ourselves of it.

Of course we could do that if we had such power, we don't, accept that or don't.

I'll advise you again, do not wish for isolation. This is trumpism 101.

A/ It would leave us in much vulnerability, much more so than now.

B/ You're not getting it anyway.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Of course we could do that if we had such power, we don't, accept that or don't.

I'll advise you again, do not wish for isolation. This is trumpism 101.

A/ It would leave us in much vulnerability, much more so than now.

B/ You're not getting it anyway.

We can agree to disagree. Respect

 

[Carringbush2010]

We can agree to disagree. Respect

Fair enough.

From a utopian point of view, yes we could be truly independent of Sam and Chuck, yes we actually could. Isolated and truly independent.

The question from that is, does it leave us more vulnerable than what it does now?

Absolutely, without question, not up for debate.

The point of this thread is to point out, we are now vulnerable more than ever in history because we're now a high end medium military power, as pointed out by the link in the op, not to mention through out the last 100+ years we've been called upon in world conflicts from Chuck and Sam.

And because of that over the last 70+ years we've organically grown to be this power by necessity for deterrent means.

And I don't like it because we're now a concern for opposite powers like Xi and Vlad, who've already made their disdain clear directly at us. This is not good, and if we didn't have Chuck and Sam at our side, we'd probably already be obliterated and annexed.

You don't don't like us being that lap /attack dog for symbolic reasons, I get that, I don't like it because Xi and Vlad are concerned about us as a threat. That is the perspective I view it from, couldn't give a phuq about the symbolism bullshit.

 

[barreness]

The source for the ranking is in the op.

It has Aus ranked 16th in military power, after referencing it again just now, we're still 16th in the world.

Lets be honest that means nothing after the top handful. We can't project power nor enforce an occupation.

The statistical analysis seems a little strange to me. If we go by cost then I think it gives you a better idea
https://www.statista.com/statistics/262742/countries-with-the-highest-military-spending/

AFAIK it doesn't take into account boots on the ground, probably because warfare is moving away from the boots on the ground method.

Tell that to a Ukranian

16th in the entire world in no way shape or form represents a nation that's a small backwater that no one takes notice of.

I didn't say a backwater. I said we have decent deterrence and the ability to act to be an American sidekick

And this is the issue, bad bad people like vlad and xi are aware that we're a high end medium power, and they probably don't like that.

The Russians couldn't give a stuff, maybe they kinda wanted the bushmaster blueprints because we gave Ukraine a bunch, that's about it

The Chinese know we'll follow the US anywhere and the US want a war to confine a growing China. They throw on a tariff when we get a bit big mouth. We act as a minor auxiliary, that would be the extent of their concern

High end medium power? What does this mean?

Not the sort of people that you want not liking you.

You really have to get away from the great people view of geopolitics and also bad vs good. That's not how any of this works

 

[barreness]

And those interests being the expansion of liberal democracies most of time. Unless you are trump or george bush (whose quest for venegence trumped all other ideals).

Nah, those interests are the interests of capital and American Hegemon

Trump kicked off a trade war cos he is an isolationist. Not because he isnt supportive of authoritarians.

Why did Biden maintain and then progress it?

He wants a world where china has its own area, russia has its own area and the usa has its own area and each bully and subjegate and conquer the smaller countries around them for their own gain. All ruled by kings.

These are just facts in a multi polar world, one which we are inevitably heading to, if not there already. The Americans are no longer the only King/Bully

A world of darkness as the benefits of trade are completely unwound.

The benefits of trade to the imperial core, not sure the exploited regions will be as concerned

Rule of law that protects human rights and smaller nations from being conquered is ripped out?

Rule of law? who's law? How many smaller nations do the US have to invade before you realise this is tripe

Human rights are a side issue, it matters when it does and doesn't when it doesn't. It's justification

Democracies unravel at home as nationalist dictators take charge claiming they need ultimate power to protect you from foreign invaders as they rip away all your rights.

Yep this is liberalism descending into fascism as it has done many times before. Just as long as the left doesn't get in charge

And the fact some of you advocate for this world and for australia to also become isolationist and reject the rule of laws (rather than work to improve and strengthen them) shows negligent naivity at best and a want for cruelty and suffering at worst.

lol

Yeh I'm not particularly on board with Sicko's ideas, at least they're interesting and not regurgitated propaganda though.
Certainly key industries should be prioritised for holistic internal supply. A nuclear deterrence I'm not so on board with, if we actually need it the worlds already in a hell state and there's no point adding damage imo

 

[schneebly111]

Here’s a great suggestion for who Australia should ally with. ASEAN.

Our immediate and direct neighbours. 700 million people. 5th largest economy in the world. Establish our position as a regional player not one with colonial ties or US imperial lackey.

 

[Seeds]

We can agree to disagree. Respect

Or we can agree you are simpy wrong in the same way we can agree climate deniers are wrong and anti vaxers are wrong.

Even if australia was somehow left alone if it pursued isolationism. (It wouldnt be) our standard of living is built off trade. We import almost everything of value and only export commodities. Our living standards would collapse in a world where trade wasnt protected. Currently its liberal democracies that protect the world trade system. Reject that and world trade shrinks to relatively nothing. Widespread poverty would return to our country. Our leaders would become populusts and we too would eventually fall to dictatorship as a result. And that would be on the hands of people like you who negliently supported such a world.

Liberal democracies have had their faults (cos they are democracies who sometimes elect poor leaders) but its by far the best system for human rights amd standard of living. We should aim to improve it. Not abandon it for dictatorships.

 

[Seeds]

Here’s a great suggestion for who Australia should ally with. ASEAN.

Our immediate and direct neighbours. 700 million people. 5th largest economy in the world. Establish our position as a regional player not one with colonial ties or US imperial lackey.

Um asean isnt an economy. Its a group of countries that work together to create common rules for engagement and reduce barriers to trade. Just like the UN.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Or we can agree you are simpy wrong in the same way we can agree climate deniers are wrong and anti vaxers are wrong.

Even if australia was somehow left alone if it pursued isolationism. (It wouldnt be) our standard of living is built off trade. We import almost everything of value and only export commodities. Our living standards would collapse in a world where trade wasnt protected. Currently its liberal democracies that protect the world trade system. Reject that and world trade shrinks to relatively nothing. Widespread poverty would return to our country. Our leaders would become populusts and we too would eventually fall to dictatorship as a result. And that would be on the hands of people like you who negliently supported such a world.

Liberal democracies have had their faults (cos they are democracies who sometimes elect poor leaders) but its by far the best system for human rights amd standard of living. We should aim to improve it. Not abandon it for dictatorships.

Where did I say we should abandon trade? I have always been on about no longer being in thrall to U.S foreign policy directives. That means no more being dragged into their wars. I never, ever said cut all ties with everyone. Just no more military co-operation.

I still believe we should have our own nuclear deterrent.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The Russians couldn't give a stuff, maybe they kinda wanted the bushmaster blueprints because we gave Ukraine a bunch, that's about it

The Chinese know we'll follow the US anywhere and the US want a war to confine a growing China. They throw on a tariff when we get a bit big mouth. We act as a minor auxiliary, that would be the extent of their concern

High end medium power? What does this mean?

I guess you didn't see the links in the op then, I never alluded that we're top of their hit list, I clearly stated that we're no longer an unknown and we have strategic and military deterrence and alliance with the US and UK. The likes of Xi and Vlad know this and they're not happy about it.

Ok, they're not mobilizing to attack us because of it, none the less, if given the chance, if we weren't allied with the US and UK. You can bet your bottom dollar they'd take that opportunity.

You really have to get away from the great people view of geopolitics and also bad vs good. That's not how any of this works

Oh ok, tell us all, how does geopolitics work then?

I didn't say a backwater.

I never said you did, I alluded that is a narrative, which it is.

 

[barreness]

I guess you didn't see the links in the op then, I never alluded that we're top of their hit list, I clearly stated that we're no longer an unknown and we have strategic and military deterrence and alliance with the US and UK. The likes of Xi and Vlad know this and they're not happy about it.

Ok, they're not mobilizing to attack us because of it, none the less, if given the chance, if we weren't allied with the US and UK. You can bet your bottom dollar they'd take that opportunity.

What opportunity?

To annex us? Look at what Curtin did in WW2, he allied with the US when Japan cooked the British empire in SE asia, and thought we needed to kick them out as soon as possible after the war was done.

Darwin got bombed but we were never getting invaded, it's basically impossible unless you're facing hunter gatherers. The northern routes are important hence curtin's moves

Oh ok, tell us all, how does geopolitics work then?

Self interest man.

What would China gain by invading us? Iron ore which they can just buy for lest cost than an invasion

Australia is almost a geopolitical non entity because of our geography. We sell rocks to the world to build materiel, don't **** up the bag by ragging on one side.

Note: this is basically the current policy; sell raw materials to china to build a war machine, spend the trade income on buying US military gear and favour. Play both sides and keep your head below the parapet, that's the foreign policy

I never said you did, I alluded that is a narrative, which it is.

Your narrative, not mine

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Paul Keating is correct ans Albanese has become a middle right sycaphant

 

[Rob R]

Paul Keating is correct ans Albanese has become a middle right sycaphant

Paul Keating the well paid CCP lobbyist has no credibility.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Baldur]

Meh, we have always been a lapdog to the strongest naval nation. Look at our independence in 1939 and 1914.

“Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war. No harder task can fall to the lot of a democratic leader than to make such an announcement.”

“Remember that when the [British] Empire is at war, so is Australia at war ... I want to make it quite clear that all our resources in Australia are in the Empire and for the Empire, and for the preservation and the security of the Empire.”

In the sixties and seventies, we were willing to draft young men to fight in Vietnam.

Our lapdogness has deceased over time and may well be at its lowest state ever at present. Given we are an island that relies on trade we need a strong alliance with the predominant world naval power. In the real world such an alliance has costs.

 

[Saint]

Well since we've abandoned international law in Israel, why would countries like Indonesia and Malaysia want to ally with us?

Those are the growing power-houses and we need to make allies with them now.

From Vietnam to Indonesia and New Zealand, if we have allies around us, it doesn't matter what the US and China are doing. None of them could sustain a military supply line large enough to protect Australia (which doesn't have its own manufacturing (big enough to worry about) so all military material needs to come from outside).

We need to distance ourselves from the US while they're contributing to a genocide which 80% of the world is against.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Your narrative, not mine

It's not my narrative, but it is a narrative.

As for the rest of your post, it is rather simplistic in view and is missing context, like your take on geopolitics, purely from a trade pov for example.

Your view of this is very nonchalant, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well since we've abandoned international law in Israel, why would countries like Indonesia and Malaysia want to ally with us?

Those are the growing power-houses and we need to make allies with them now.

From Vietnam to Indonesia and New Zealand, if we have allies around us, it doesn't matter what the US and China are doing. None of them could sustain a military supply line large enough to protect Australia (which doesn't have its own manufacturing (big enough to worry about) so all military material needs to come from outside).

We need to distance ourselves from the US while they're contributing to a genocide which 80% of the world is against.

Willing to bet, oz is strengthening ties with Indonesia and other parts of our region and probably has since who knows when.

We don't hear about or it's not really reported on, but it'd be naive if oz hasn't done so.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

I like isolationism. We can have friends, of course. But we need not rely on anyone, nor be pulled into anybody else's bullshit.

We don't need a nuclear deterrent as a stick to beat others with, just as a shield to ensure that others cannot beat us.

I don't buy all this 'liberal democracies need to stick together' nonsense. Not while the current rules-based order is to ensure 99.9% of the earth's wealth is concentrated in 0.1% of the earth's population.

Putin sucks and Xi sucks and neither deserves stewardship of this world. But Pax Americana and its aforementioned rules-based order? They can f*ck right off too.

Ourselves alone. We need nukes.

So you think NATO countries are all chumps then and should isolate themselves?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Our lapdogness has deceased over time and may well be at its lowest state ever at present.

Maybe, regardless that doesn't make us any more transparent.

It's not like it was in the 60s and 70s when the world barely knew we existed, the links in the op suggest a very different picture to that.

And that is the point of the thread, the fact that we're likely a perceived threat to some and we're likely still at the whim of Chuck and Sam if and when they want.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Paul Keating the well paid CCP lobbyist has no credibility.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

He is not paid . He has more credibility than any current Labor tosspot.
Turnball agrees with him as well.

 

[Saint]

Willing to bet, oz is strengthening ties with Indonesia and other parts of our region and probably has since who knows when.

We don't hear about or it's not really reported on, but it'd be naive if oz hasn't done so.

Protecting and excusing Israel and screwing up international law would be undoing a lot of that work.

Indonesia and Malaysia both walked out on Israel's address to the UN and have various levels of bans/boycotts on Israel.

Supporting Israel's war is doing Australia a lot of damage in the region which matters for the sake of some genocidal leaders in a region which doesn't matter to us at all.

MUI reminds public to continue boycotting Israeli products

The Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) reminded the people to continue boycotting products made by Israel and all affiliated items to support the struggle for ...

en.antaranews.com

 

[Carringbush2010]

Protecting and excusing Israel and screwing up international law would be undoing a lot of that work.

Indonesia and Malaysia both walked out on Israel's address to the UN and have various levels of bans/boycotts on Israel.

Supporting Israel's war is doing Australia a lot of damage in the region which matters for the sake of some genocidal leaders in a region which doesn't matter to us at all.

MUI reminds public to continue boycotting Israeli products

The Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) reminded the people to continue boycotting products made by Israel and all affiliated items to support the struggle for ...

en.antaranews.com

Not certain if that's a deal breaker between Aus and Indonesia as far as being in alliance is concerned. Haven't heard anything in regards to deteriorating alliance between Indonesia and Aus because Israel.

More than certain if it were to be a deal breaker we'd certainly hear and know about it.

And I doubt Indonesia would be as petulant as to deliberately sour our alliance coz Israel.