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AFC979810 said:
Miles above Mackay's ceiling already?

You forgot how good Mackay was in 2009. Jones ain't sniffed that yet.

He has had more than 25 disposals once in 76 career games. Mackay did it 5 times in 2009.

The comparison between Jones and Mackay is a fair one.
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5 times in his first 39 games and then probably about the same again over the next 200 odd.
 

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Ciao Giacomo said:
Gollant has played well in his limited opportunities at AFL level and has been one of the best forwards in the SANFL. Cook has barely fired a shot in the SANFL let alone in the AFL.

I do concede that Cook has an excellent highlight reel*, mostly selling candy, but he struggles to find the ball. I would love to see Cook make his mark in the AFL but I would not be betting on it.

*Tariek Newchurch has an even better highlight reel.
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looked ok in that 1 game he got last year.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
So coaches can't make decisions that impact players?
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Fringe players absolutely. But if you are good enough you will rarely be overlooked.

It does happen - but those players are generally role players anyway and find a role at another club

Good players put it beyond doubt - look at Max, look at Soligo - most were shocked we extended him before the opening round of his debut year and he got a game round 1


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
rabidcrow said:
Fringe players absolutely. But if you are good enough you will rarely be overlooked.

It does happen - but those players are generally role players anyway and find a role at another club

Good players put it beyond doubt - look at Max, look at Soligo - most were shocked we extended him before the opening round of his debut year and he got a game round 1


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
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Players are fringe players until they aren't

Coaches who can see something in a player and invest in it are absolutely gold.

There would not have been a single person who saw an elite CHB in Peter Caven. Except one

It completely underplays the art of coaching and selection to say Oh if he's good enough he'll get picked.

Often coaches will be splitting hairs with multiple players at selection. They have choices to make and wield a lot of power.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Players are fringe players until they aren't

Coaches who can see something in a player and invest in it are absolutely gold.

There would not have been a single person who saw an elite CHB in Peter Caven. Except one

It completely underplays the art of coaching and selection to say Oh if he's good enough he'll get picked.

Often coaches will be splitting hairs with multiple players at selection. They have choices to make and wield a lot of power.
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I guess that’s what happened with Nick Murray , Soligo etc …… Murray especially a great comparison with Caven

Bloke went undrafted twice then played country footy


Seems like they want to back Cook in given burgess comments and are just probably waiting for him to show a bit more first

Personally I’d be promoting Nank well before him who I think is a similar but better version

Players are fringe until they aren’t but there are also 42 players on list so it’s impossible not to have fringe players
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Elite defenders are out of the defenders though

Elite doesn't just equal Elite

Elite defender means best of the players categorised as defenders

Yeah, you want your defenders to be better than the other teams' defenders.

You want to find a Craig Bolton. Low cost, multiple AA, backbone of a premiership. But you don't play Chris Judd off half back because he might be elite there. Or draft a Craig Bolton ahead of a primo mid.

Nick Murray might be an elite defender for us. Undrafted, plucked off a farm. Right price. Perfect.
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Yeah, you want your midfielders to be better than the other team's midfielders.

You want to find a Gary Ablett Jr. Low cost, multiple AA, backbone of a premiership. But you don't play Stewart at the centre bounce because he might be elite there.

You draft for best available not needs, otherwise you end up with MacAseys and Galluccis.

Rory Laird has been an elite mid for us. Plucked from the rookie draft. Right price, perfect. Murray isn't tracking to be elite.

Sicily, Houston, Stewart, Moore, Andrews, Taylor, Blakey, May, Wilkie and Wietering are elite players who are also defenders.

The average score for the losing side in the last 10 grand AFL GF's was 61.5 points. That's some pretty good defending.
 
Jeffcrowe said:
Yep I think he should have retained his spot following that game
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soligo came back in as did max from his rest and Laird from injury. Cant expect any of those guys to not play but it was the week where we did the fake selection of Sloane in the 22 to ultimately rest him as sub. Half in the 1s more valuable than another SANFL game IMO.
 
1970crow said:
soligo came back in as did max from his rest and Laird from injury. Cant expect any of those guys to not play but it was the week where we did the fake selection of Sloane in the 22 to ultimately rest him as sub. Half in the 1s more valuable than another SANFL game IMO.
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Yep we had to retain Nank but would have been better to play Cook as sub that week at least for his confidence / reward for a decent performance
 
Big Dub said:
Yeah, you want your midfielders to be better than the other team's midfielders.

You want to find a Gary Ablett Jr. Low cost, multiple AA, backbone of a premiership. But you don't play Stewart at the centre bounce because he might be elite there.

You draft for best available not needs, otherwise you end up with MacAseys and Galluccis.

Rory Laird has been an elite mid for us. Plucked from the rookie draft. Right price, perfect. Murray isn't tracking to be elite.

Sicily, Houston, Stewart, Moore, Andrews, Taylor, Blakey, May, Wilkie and Wietering are elite players who are also defenders.

The average score for the losing side in the last 10 grand AFL GF's was 61.5 points. That's some pretty good defending.
Click to expand...
Tom Stewart was Pick 40, having previously been overlooked in five drafts. That's who can be elite as a defender.

Laird an elite mid. You've seen how we've gone with him as our best mid, yeah?

If you want your midfielders to be better than the other teams midfielders then you better pony up.

Building an elite defence. We'll take Ben Rutten and Nathan Bock from the rookie draft please.

Malcolm... should we leave Kane Johnson and Simon Goodwin at half back? Could be elite there.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Tom Stewart was Pick 40, having previously been overlooked in five drafts. That's who can be elite as a defender.

Laird an elite mid. You've seen how we've gone with him as our best mid, yeah?

If you want your midfielders to be better than the other teams midfielders then you better pony up.

Building an elite defence. We'll take Ben Rutten and Nathan Bock from the rookie draft please.

Malcolm... should we leave Kane Johnson and Simon Goodwin at half back? Could be elite there.
Click to expand...
Ablett, Fyfe and Neale were all later picks. All multiple brownlow winning mids.

Which is a tongue in cheek comparison to your "you can get elite defenders late". You can get elite mids and elite defenders late, it's just a lot easier to get them with earlier picks. In reality, you choose best available with the picks you have.

The data just doesn't support the hypothesis that you should focus on getting elite mids at the expense of elite defenders. As much as it is a popular misconception. The team with the best midfield (based on AA and AA40 selection) has won the flag about 3 times in the last 2 decades.

A team with a more balanced spread of elite, above average and average players is more likely to be successful. Right now, our biggest weakness is conceding scores. A new, attacking mid isn't going to fix that. More class in our defensive third should.

Unless you think that scores conceded isn't our biggest issue?
 

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Big Dub said:
Ablett, Fyfe and Neale were all later picks. All multiple brownlow winning mids.

Which is a tongue in cheek comparison to your "you can get elite defenders late". You can get elite mids and elite defenders late, it's just a lot easier to get them with earlier picks. In reality, you choose best available with the picks you have.

The data just doesn't support the hypothesis that you should focus on getting elite mids at the expense of elite defenders. As much as it is a popular misconception. The team with the best midfield (based on AA and AA40 selection) has won the flag about 3 times in the last 2 decades.

A team with a more balanced spread of elite, above average and average players is more likely to be successful. Right now, our biggest weakness is conceding scores. A new, attacking mid isn't going to fix that. More class in our defensive third should.

Unless you think that scores conceded isn't our biggest issue?
Click to expand...

What you're overlooking is that you can build an elite defence with low grade cattle.

You certainly don't keep elite mids there. Nick Daicos didn't stay at half back long. Collingwood know that it's much easier to find a good defender than a quality midfielder
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Tom Stewart was Pick 40, having previously been overlooked in five drafts. That's who can be elite as a defender.

Laird an elite mid. You've seen how we've gone with him as our best mid, yeah?

If you want your midfielders to be better than the other teams midfielders then you better pony up.

Building an elite defence. We'll take Ben Rutten and Nathan Bock from the rookie draft please.

Malcolm... should we leave Kane Johnson and Simon Goodwin at half back? Could be elite there.
Click to expand...
What picks were Goodwin, Johnson in draft, Dawson too

it can go both ways

easier to fudge a flag with elite mids over elite defenders though I agree
 
Big Dub said:
Ablett, Fyfe and Neale were all later picks. All multiple brownlow winning mids.

Which is a tongue in cheek comparison to your "you can get elite defenders late". You can get elite mids and elite defenders late, it's just a lot easier to get them with earlier picks. In reality, you choose best available with the picks you have.

The data just doesn't support the hypothesis that you should focus on getting elite mids at the expense of elite defenders. As much as it is a popular misconception. The team with the best midfield (based on AA and AA40 selection) has won the flag about 3 times in the last 2 decades.

A team with a more balanced spread of elite, above average and average players is more likely to be successful. Right now, our biggest weakness is conceding scores. A new, attacking mid isn't going to fix that. More class in our defensive third should.

Unless you think that scores conceded isn't our biggest issue?
Click to expand...
midfielders need to defend too, I think that's where we need to get more organised and be better to slow scoring
 
Jeffcrowe said:
Yeah maybe one more very good key defender

Otherwise I think our defence is emerging and very dynamic

Bullish on lots of them including Worrell Murray Michaelanny Hinge Curtin ( although can see him further up ground )
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I think our defence is young and developing, but of those listed only Curtin and maybe Michalanney could be elite.

Hopefully the rest, and Ryan or Cheddar (but probably a mid), get to above average level.
 
Big Dub said:
...

The average score for the losing side in the last 10 grand AFL GF's was 61.5 points. That's some pretty good defending.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting and telling stat. I guess it's about having a midfield that runs both ways as well as a tight, well-organised defence.

On SM-A115F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Big Dub said:
Ablett, Fyfe and Neale were all later picks. All multiple brownlow winning mids.

Which is a tongue in cheek comparison to your "you can get elite defenders late". You can get elite mids and elite defenders late, it's just a lot easier to get them with earlier picks. In reality, you choose best available with the picks you have.

The data just doesn't support the hypothesis that you should focus on getting elite mids at the expense of elite defenders. As much as it is a popular misconception. The team with the best midfield (based on AA and AA40 selection) has won the flag about 3 times in the last 2 decades.

A team with a more balanced spread of elite, above average and average players is more likely to be successful. Right now, our biggest weakness is conceding scores. A new, attacking mid isn't going to fix that. More class in our defensive third should.

Unless you think that scores conceded isn't our biggest issue?
Click to expand...
Ablett was a father son pick at a time when there was no bidding. Geelong just picked him with a 3rd pick after nominating him. No one else could pick him.
 
crows dude said:
Ablett was a father son pick at a time when there was no bidding. Geelong just picked him with a 3rd pick after nominating him. No one else could pick him.
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True, although to be fair, at the time it wasn't seen as some massive coup. He was seen as a speculative talent, not a likely first-round selection in his draft year.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Players are fringe players until they aren't

Coaches who can see something in a player and invest in it are absolutely gold.

There would not have been a single person who saw an elite CHB in Peter Caven. Except one

It completely underplays the art of coaching and selection to say Oh if he's good enough he'll get picked.

Often coaches will be splitting hairs with multiple players at selection. They have choices to make and wield a lot of power.
Click to expand...
Yep Robert Shaw was not liked, but was a good judge of a young footballer.
 
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