Bigman’s Training Reports

[Scorpus]

I mean, all permanent small and mid sized forwards are failed midfielders.

I disagree, some players have a skill set that's best suited specifically for playing as a forward.

Eddie Betts for example was not a failed midfielder. He had elite goal sense and skills and was extremely evasive, but wasn't a good accumulator, didn't have the size or burst speed to accelerate from stoppage and wasn't a hugely defensive player.

I'd have Shane McAdam in that category as well. He would be much less effective in the midfield and didn't have the traits or abilities for that role

 

[Scorpus]

You're probably right about his goal sense, though the results are mostly okay.

His size and power running is very good for a forward, as he has the defensive ability to get to contests and pressure, and the stamina to break and get into good position when we're rebounding.

I think he's better value as a forward than a mid, but that's just me.

He's better value as a forward because we have other players who are better value as a midfielder

 

[Coopers]

Equally concerning that Sholl played exclusively in the blue team. Wtf

bigman thanks again. You've gotten us through the summer with these awesome write ups. Massive props

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You'd have to think Soligo pushes Sholl back into the twos when he's fit.

That said, good on him for improving and snapping around the best 22. It's a long season so he'll get a shot and he has some weapons.

 

[Alwaysacrow]

A little concerning that Pedlar has been placed in the back up team a few times at training now. Hopefully it is just about mixing it up rather than his position in the squad.

Several players have been swapped around in match sim. Barring injury Pedlar is an absolute lock vs Gold Coast.

 

[Crows I Am]

Equally concerning that Sholl played exclusively in the blue team. Wtf

bigman thanks again. You've gotten us through the summer with these awesome write ups. Massive props

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Yes I did notice that too, coaches must have been mixing it up a bit as no way Sholl should be in the main team before Pedlar.

 

[Crows I Am]

Several players have been swapped around in match sim. Barring injury Pedlar is an absolute lock vs Gold Coast.

Fingers crossed that is the case. I have Pedlar down to keep building from last year and have a big year this year.

 

[Golumless]

I disagree, some players have a skill set that's best suited specifically for playing as a forward.

Eddie Betts for example was not a failed midfielder. He had elite goal sense and skills and was extremely evasive, but wasn't a good accumulator, didn't have the size or burst speed to accelerate from stoppage and wasn't a hugely defensive player.

I'd have Shane McAdam in that category as well. He would be much less effective in the midfield and didn't have the traits or abilities for that role

You make my point for me. They're failed midfielders. They didn't have the skillset to continue on the developmental pathway they were on. Still high (extremely high in Eddies case) value players, but specialisation as a forward only comes after any idea of midfield has been exhausted. That said, Eddie was also a very strong defensive player in his peak with us - a deeply underrated part of his game.

 

[Scorpus]

You make my point for me. They're failed midfielders. They didn't have the skillset to continue on the developmental pathway they were on. Still high (extremely high in Eddies case) value players, but specialisation as a forward only comes after any idea of midfield has been exhausted.

Is there any evidence suggesting Betts or McAdam or many other forwards' developmental pathway was midfield?

If a development coach sees a player's attributes are better suited to playing forward instead of midfield from early on, does that mean they've "failed" as a midfielder when they haven't been developed for that position?

 

[Big Dub]

Seems like a weird way to push his development along.

"Alright Cooky, go stand where the ball isn't!" followed by "You're not getting near it enough!"

Maybe he's just not that good, but I like him, and I don't get the lack of progress.

It looks like other players have demanded a spot near where the ball is more than he has.

And if it's a lack of endeavour not a lack of skill, which his issue may well be, this could be the best way to push his development along. Putt him where the ball isn't and teach him how to go and find it (which is clearly still a work in progress).

We also can't give every player on the squad the prime development opportunities. It's got to go to the players who show they will do most with those opportunities.

 

[Golumless]

Is there any evidence suggesting Betts or McAdam or many other forwards' developmental pathway was midfield?

Yup, look at how we're treating Rankine and Rachele right now. Look at Richmond with Bolton. Port with Rozee. Melbourne with Pickett. Every non-midfield and small position is at its core about developing midfielders because specialisation is a very expensive thing to run - and really, why a lot of specialised positions have all but died out in the last twenty years. All it takes is a look at the push towards endurance being a key part of a small forwards makeup, whether either to help overload the wings on a counter-attack or as a defensive tool is really a core part of how midfielders operate, seeing defense is more focused on tackling/pressure instead of intercepting. The need for a high amount of contested skills to generate scoring shots in congestion is a trait that's also built for midfield. General work rate and speed/evasiveness/acceleration are other examples of things that are extremely valuable in a midfielder, ditto ball skills.

To develop a gun small forward is to develop a midfielder with some goal kicking ability.

If a development coach sees a player's attributes are better suited to playing forward instead of midfield from early on, does that mean they've "failed" as a midfielder when they haven't been developed for that position?

To the letter.

 

[Big Dub]

You make my point for me. They're failed midfielders. They didn't have the skillset to continue on the developmental pathway they were on. Still high (extremely high in Eddies case) value players, but specialisation as a forward only comes after any idea of midfield has been exhausted. That said, Eddie was also a very strong defensive player in his peak with us - a deeply underrated part of his game.

I think the issue might be one of perspective.

This forum wants to make a midfielder out of any player we get that shows any elite skills. So, when they don't become midfielders, they are considered "failed midfielders".

On the other hand, the coaches are trying to win games. So they play the players in the positions that maximise wins as a team. So a potentially elite forward is generally played forward, a potentially elite defender is generally played in defence and so forth. If a player is potentially elite in multiple positions, they get played where they will have most impact on wins for the team (even if that isn't midfield).

 

[Scorpus]

Yup, look at how we're treating Rankine and Rachele right now. Look at Richmond with Bolton. Port with Rozee. Melbourne with Pickett. Every non-midfield and small position is at its core about developing midfielders because specialisation is a very expensive thing to run - and really, why a lot of specialised positions have all but died out in the last twenty years. All it takes is a look at the push towards endurance being a key part of a small forwards makeup, whether either to help overload the wings on a counter-attack or as a defensive tool is really a core part of how midfielders operate, seeing defense is more focused on tackling/pressure instead of intercepting. The need for a high amount of contested skills to generate scoring shots in congestion is a trait that's also built for midfield. General work rate and speed/evasiveness/acceleration are other examples of things that are extremely valuable in a midfielder, ditto ball skills.

To develop a gun small forward is to develop a midfielder with some goal kicking ability.



To the letter.

All the players you've listed are midfielders. Rankine, Rachele, Bolton, Rozee, Pickett... all have great traits and abilities when playing midfield. Which is why they have had significant development time put into them in those positions. Pickett probably the least 'midfield' of that group.

A player like Charlie Cameron, the best small forward in the competition, was never developed as a midfielder. Not with us at SANFL or AFL level, and not at Brisbane either. At junior level he played as a small forward.

What you are suggesting is that Cameron is a failed midfielder. Which is bullshit! Coaches have prioritized him as a forward because he's elite there, and he doesn't have the attributes to be a midfielder.

For example I'm not a failed basketballer because I've never played it, have zero attributes to be a basketballer and no one has suggested I try it

 

[Carmo]

A little concerning that Pedlar has been placed in the back up team a few times at training now. Hopefully it is just about mixing it up rather than his position in the squad.

Perhaps punishment for his late night antics?

 

[rabidcrow]

Seems like a weird way to push his development along.

"Alright Cooky, go stand where the ball isn't!" followed by "You're not getting near it enough!"

Maybe he's just not that good, but I like him, and I don't get the lack of progress.

Good players find a way to stand out so that the coaches are putting them in more advantageous positions because it helps the team
It is up to the player to show enough to demand the opportunity


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[cmndstab]

A little concerning that Pedlar has been placed in the back up team a few times at training now. Hopefully it is just about mixing it up rather than his position in the squad.

Unfortunately, I doubt that is the case. It's difficult to imagine they're playing everyone else in order of preference except for him.

They clearly see him as a fringe player, which I personally find baffling. He was my favourite player to watch last year. I assume it must come down to him not having a clear role. They don't view him as a clear starter in the midfield, and our forward line is pretty stacked. But I would have thought that Pedlar is the kind of player you make room for.

 

[cleanhands]

Well one of Tex, Fog or Filthy has to get the 3rd best defender...

Good times!

Hasn’t that been happening?

 

[Jeffcrowe]

George always a bit hard to tell with opposing teams that know each other inside out.

One thing I have noticed is significantly less bombing of the ball from stoppage, instead players are releasing by hand more and encouraged to put speed on the game and take opponents on.

There’s also been less going long down the line, instead players have often looked laterally for options whether that’s boundary side or in the corridor even when being pressured. Typically, only if there’s nothing on offer do they go the ultra conservative route.

Obviously the pressure of real games and tougher opposition will be a test for the lads but we have a faster, smarter list than years previous.

What about defending the ground and defending losing stoppages etc ?

we need to do to get better at that to win more games as well as play 4 quarters and close games out when we’ve been on top

Much playing down the clock stuff ?

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Unfortunately, I doubt that is the case. It's difficult to imagine they're playing everyone else in order of preference except for him.

They clearly see him as a fringe player, which I personally find baffling. He was my favourite player to watch last year. I assume it must come down to him not having a clear role. They don't view him as a clear starter in the midfield, and our forward line is pretty stacked. But I would have thought that Pedlar is the kind of player you make room for.

Wouldn’t worry about Pedlar , absolute lock unless he’s not blatantly doing stuff he’s been asked which I doubt very much

Extremely highly rated internally , some in club think he’s got a similar presence around the group as Tex which is a massive compliment

 

[Jeffcrowe]

He's not really a forward though

Definitely suits our forward line , and definitely doesn’t suit our midfield anymore

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Unfortunately, I doubt that is the case. It's difficult to imagine they're playing everyone else in order of preference except for him.

They clearly see him as a fringe player, which I personally find baffling. He was my favourite player to watch last year. I assume it must come down to him not having a clear role. They don't view him as a clear starter in the midfield, and our forward line is pretty stacked. But I would have thought that Pedlar is the kind of player you make room for.

The club do not see Pedlar as a fringe player!

You are reading way too much into this

Will continue to be part of our main side.

 

[bigman]

What about defending the ground and defending losing stoppages etc ?

we need to do to get better at that to win more games as well as play 4 quarters and close games out when we’ve been on top

Much playing down the clock stuff ?

Hard to tell with the stoppages to be honest jeff, the blue team was dominant in there so not a whole lot of defending going on!

Was definitely some milking of the clock, as I mentioned pedlar could have easily had a shot at goal from 40m late in the final period but instead, after soaking up his 30 secs, decided to pass to keays who was on a much worse angle. Keays took his 30, whistle was blown and game was over. And prior to that was quite a bit of chippy stuff, mostly going lateral but still edging closer towards goal. Not a heap of conceding ground when switching the ball either which was good to see.

 

[Alwaysacrow]

Unfortunately, I doubt that is the case. It's difficult to imagine they're playing everyone else in order of preference except for him.

They clearly see him as a fringe player, which I personally find baffling. He was my favourite player to watch last year. I assume it must come down to him not having a clear role. They don't view him as a clear starter in the midfield, and our forward line is pretty stacked. But I would have thought that Pedlar is the kind of player you make room for.

There's now way Pedlar will be in the 2nds. Several players were swapped around in the Sim matches. Stop panicking, he'll be playing against Gold Coast unless he gets injured.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Good players find a way to stand out so that the coaches are putting them in more advantageous positions because it helps the team
It is up to the player to show enough to demand the opportunity


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

yep and there are plenty of other guys that deserve opportunities too

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Good players find a way to stand out so that the coaches are putting them in more advantageous positions because it helps the team
It is up to the player to show enough to demand the opportunity

So coaches can't make decisions that impact players?

 

[Sanders]

Posted recently on this.

Elite defenders are more important then elite midfielders (inc mid-forwards) for winning premierships, based upon the last 20 years of data. Defence is also where we have the least of our elite prospects.

Over the last 20 years, grand final losers had more elite midfielders and forwards than the premiers that they lost to, but less elite defenders.

So I'd like to go hard on developing him as an elite defender straight away, because I'd rather we have a premiership than the AFL record for clearances.

Not sure you’ve got your causation correlated correctly