Bluemour Melting Pot XXI - Like seriously, the polar ice caps have got nothing on us

[KohPhi]

Jack Martin is out of contract and not returning to the Suns, they played hardball and refused a trade. There options now are either, delist him, which means he becomes a DFA, or they can offer him a deal and force him to go to the PSD.

By offering GC a favourable pick swap, they might delist Martin, meaning he doesn’t have to go to the PSD. One could argue that this is draft tampering, but as it’s GC, the AFL would probably allow it, to avoid any possible challenges by Martins management if GC redrafted him or he was picked by Melbourne.

I don't think the pick swap can be 'favourable' as such as the delisting of Martin cannot be considered part of this pick trade, and must be looked at in isolation.
The pick swaps need to be seen as equitable.

However, as mentioned, this is the AFL.. who knows what they'll allow or not allow.

 

[Coops93]

Pass. Too expensive and has the potential to screw our TPP balance. Let everyone else fight over Grundy, Whitfield, Cameron, Crouch etc.

Zac Williams on a more modest contract should be exactly where we aim.

Williams + Papley and anything else is a bonus. Reckon by this time next year Wines will be in our rear view mirror with our existing midfield group taking a big step forward.

I doubt he'd screw up the TPP considering we've been planning for a $1m player for the last 2 or 3 years, and we offered even more than that for Coniglio. He'd bring stability to a position that has been incredibly flaky for us for the better part of a decade and a position that has increased in impact and relevance the last few years.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I doubt he'd screw up the TPP considering we've been planning for a $1m player for the last 2 or 3 years, and we offered even more than that for Coniglio. He'd bring stability to a position that has been incredibly flaky for us for the better part of a decade and a position that has increased in impact and relevance the last few years.

I think we've been planning for a player we could frontload and taper, but it sounds like Grundy will be getting some monster long-term offers. $1mil per season for 7 years is a huge commitment when we have Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Weitering and Walsh all likely to be deserving of $500k plus during that time (with some of them a realistic chance of hitting the $800k-$1mil range), as well as a "next tier" with a lot of potential in SPS, Dow, Stocker, Setterfield etc.

I think it would be possible to get him, but I think it would limit our recruiting potential beyond that point and would come with the risk of blowing out our TPP a few years down the track and having some unintended consequences.

On top of that, I just don't think the ruck department is one you should be dropping that sort of money on. He's a unique player, Grundy, but he's not winning Collingwood flags. Having a dominant midfield with a servicable and durable ruck, as well as talent at either end of the field, has consistently been shown to be a winning formula.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Not sure if it’s just you, but I’ve seen Ricardis name mentioned a few times, isn’t he a key forward or is he a backman? Where do you see him fitting in with us? I don’t see much need for talls

He's a medium/tall (same height/weight as Crippa) natural forward. Only 19yo, had a cracking year in the VFL, and think finished in the top two or three in goalkicking this year. I saw him when Werribee played the NB's early this year, and he completely tore us a new one. He's a real presence up forward.



You could argue that we'd be too big up forward, but then I'd argue what Finbar's role is perceived to be for our side going forward.

Either way, he'll get snapped up before our second pick, assuming we don't trade our pick 9.

 

[Funk]

Phillips more experienced.... Older and you kind of know what you getting.
If they rate Draper which I assume they do for long term, a back up ruck or replacement for Bellchambers in short term would suit their needs for two years than a younger unknown entity at senior level in Pittonet. But for us I probably happier with how it turning out for us as we know Phillips is handy back up but never really what we want long term in a number one ruck. Happy to explore younger Pittonet whom seems very hungry to learn to become a senior ruck soon.
Loved the interview I heard on radio of him. Sounds a great down to earth character that would suit age of our other players right now and into next decade.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Bearded Carpenter]

TC - "Hey Gill"
GM - "WTF have you done cockers?"
TC - "Yeah I know, we screwed up the Martin trade"
GM - "You've made a complete ball sack of yourself, the club and the process"
TC - "I thought I had the green light to beat my chest a bit"
GM - "You thought wrong you turnip"
TC - "Got an idea that will get us out of this and save some face"
GM - "Oh here we go go, do tell"
TC - "So, lets arrange a pick swap with SOS......"
GM - "SOS! Don't mention his name, haven't you learnt anything?"
TC - "But....."
GM - "BUT NOTHING, you screwed him over on trade day, then the media went after him, then BF went loco, you hear the rumours, do you know what you have done? I heard he coming after all of us, you remember what he did in the 95 finals? Do YOU. 1 ****ing goal between White, Carey and Ablett. Who the **** does that?"
TC - "Oh dear"
GM - "Oh dear alright, now you want to go back all grovelling like and try and facilitate a trade and you want me to bend the rules to help you save face"
TC - "Kind of"
GM - "Hmmm. Given the amount of ****ing money I've fed into your club it seems like I'm going to have too hey Cockers"
TC - "Ill pay ya back Gill"
GM - "Too right you will"

GM - "Now reach around and give me a little tickle"

 

[PoultryinMotion]

Offer Picks 9 and 43 and future 2nd for Suns 2019 picks 15 and 20, plus Martin as a DFA.
If we were to land Martin , Rivers and Taheny or quality other small forward I’d be ecstatic .

According to Taheny’s father Geelong recruiters see him as a half back not a forward as he has been playing at Norwood. Plays tall, good hands and I think he said Cam’s endurance is not outstanding but I could be wrong there. Left footer too perhaps.

 

[DangerousD]

Even if they did have a change of heart, it's too late to trade players isn't it?

Martin only works because we could potentially entice GC to delist him. Delisting a contracted player would be a lot messier wouldn't it? Or am I missing something here.

Doesn’t happen often but GC delisted Lyons last year so he could move to Brisbane, it’s not officially a trade, he was delisted and then signed with who he wanted.

 

[Manhattanite]

I think we've been planning for a player we could frontload and taper, but it sounds like Grundy will be getting some monster long-term offers. $1mil per season for 7 years is a huge commitment when we have Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Weitering and Walsh all likely to be deserving of $500k plus during that time (with some of them a realistic chance of hitting the $800k-$1mil range), as well as a "next tier" with a lot of potential in SPS, Dow, Stocker, Setterfield etc.

I think it would be possible to get him, but I think it would limit our recruiting potential beyond that point and would come with the risk of blowing out our TPP a few years down the track and having some unintended consequences.

On top of that, I just don't think the ruck department is one you should be dropping that sort of money on. He's a unique player, Grundy, but he's not winning Collingwood flags. Having a dominant midfield with a servicable and durable ruck, as well as talent at either end of the field, has consistently been shown to be a winning formula.

Yes as good as Grundy is statistically he isn’t winning the Pies the important games. What’s the point of winning hit outs if you don’t win clearances or games? What’s the point of breaking hitout records if your team isn’t winning? If you can’t work effectively with your mids (or they with you) it’s not worth the money. That’s probably why the Pies are lowballing him right now.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DangerousD]

I don't think the pick swap can be 'favourable' as such as the delisting of Martin cannot be considered part of this pick trade, and must be looked at in isolation.
The pick swaps need to be seen as equitable.

However, as mentioned, this is the AFL.. who knows what they'll allow or not allow.

Like giving up pick 2 for Weller favourable?

I get what you mean though.

 

[DangerousD]

He's a medium/tall (same height/weight as Crippa) natural forward. Only 19yo, had a cracking year in the VFL, and think finished in the top two or three in goalkicking this year. I saw him when Werribee played the NB's early this year, and he completely tore us a new one. He's a real presence up forward.



You could argue that we'd be too big up forward, but then I'd argue what Finbar's role is perceived to be for our side going forward.

Either way, he'll get snapped up before our second pick, assuming we don't trade our pick 9.

Haven’t seen him, heard good things, even though I don’t see a role now, doesn’t mean there isn’t one going forward.
Seeing highlights and reading up on him, makes me annoyed that we didn’t get a player like this in the mid season draft. We could have then traded the player for a 2nd or third and been in a stronger position.

 

[Coops93]

I think we've been planning for a player we could frontload and taper, but it sounds like Grundy will be getting some monster long-term offers. $1mil per season for 7 years is a huge commitment when we have Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Weitering and Walsh all likely to be deserving of $500k plus during that time (with some of them a realistic chance of hitting the $800k-$1mil range), as well as a "next tier" with a lot of potential in SPS, Dow, Stocker, Setterfield etc.

I think it would be possible to get him, but I think it would limit our recruiting potential beyond that point and would come with the risk of blowing out our TPP a few years down the track and having some unintended consequences.

On top of that, I just don't think the ruck department is one you should be dropping that sort of money on. He's a unique player, Grundy, but he's not winning Collingwood flags. Having a dominant midfield with a servicable and durable ruck, as well as talent at either end of the field, has consistently been shown to be a winning formula.

Isn't a million a year for 7 years even less than what we offered Cogs? Wasn't that like $1.2m, $1.3m over 7?

It's a good point re premierships. When was the last team to win with a legitimate top 3 ruckman?

 

[HBF]

I'm going the early crow, I reckon next year we'll get Grundy as a FA.

Grundy will go back to Adelaide if he leaves Collingwood.

 

[IanOfBendigo]

1+2+11 next year and a Second. F*** the suns

Agreed! Ya snooze; ya lose, Suns. Not prepared to help them salvage their balls-up unless it is to our distinct advantage and further highlights their ineptitude.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Isn't a million a year for 7 years even less than what we offered Cogs? Wasn't that like $1.2m, $1.3m over 7?

It's a good point re premierships. When was the last team to win with a legitimate top 3 ruckman?

Cogs was 5 years, not 7. And it started well above $1mil but tapered away (leveraging our banked cap space for the first two years). Was supposed to average about $900k per season over the life of the deal, I believe.

7 years, on more money (because you just know that someone is going to go North of $1mil and that's what it will take to land him), for a position you only play one of and can't really afford to stock up on "quality" depth? No thank you.

What happen when he does an ACL and misses a year? Or his body starts to go in his late 20s but he's contracted for another 3-4 years (like Buddy).

Cripps goes down and 6 blokes take on a bit of the load. Grundy goes down and it's Pittonet or TDK. It's a heap of eggs in that basket.

And yeah - get a smart ruckman who can develop synergy with our midfield group, and we're on our way. TDK or Pittonet could easily be that guy, for less than half the cost, and it means we don't lose a Curnow down the track because of a cap squeeze.

 

[jj1978]

Don't trust GC one iota at the moment and any potential deal that may involve them either delisting Martin or letting him slide to us in the PSD I would tread cautiously with.

Much rather we just stand firm with our pick 9 (or trade it to someone else) and hope that Martin slips to us somehow.

Keep playing that game of poker SOS.

 

[Kramer1]

Like giving up pick 2 for Weller favourable?

I get what you mean though.

Weller and Ballard for Brayshaw looks a reasonable trade at the moment...not sure why people keep potting GC over this one.

 

[Coops93]

Cogs was 5 years, not 7. And it started well above $1mil but tapered away (leveraging our banked cap space for the first two years). Was supposed to average about $900k per season over the life of the deal, I believe.

7 years, on more money (because you just know that someone is going to go North of $1mil and that's what it will take to land him), for a position you only play one of and can't really afford to stock up on "quality" depth? No thank you.

What happen when he does an ACL and misses a year? Or his body starts to go in his late 20s but he's contracted for another 3-4 years (like Buddy).

Cripps goes down and 6 blokes take on a bit of the load. Grundy goes down and it's Pittonet or TDK. It's a heap of eggs in that basket.

And yeah - get a smart ruckman who can develop synergy with our midfield group, and we're on our way. TDK or Pittonet could easily be that guy, for less than half the cost, and it means we don't lose a Curnow down the track because of a cap squeeze.

We'll have to agree to disagree re the finances. I don't see as big a harm in putting someone on a big contract.

I don't see hypothetical injuries as justification for not pursuing someone, it's a lazy argument to me. Any player at any time can go down with an ACL, so does that mean you shouldn't pursue anyone? Cripps goes down and 6 blokes take the load because there's 6 blokes who play the same position. Grundy goes down and 1 person replaces him because there's only 1 person in the role (which TDK would do ably imo). It's not a good comparison.

Now a 7 year deal at what will be 27 by the time he gets to us would be a concern. 34 by the time the deal is up, not ideal. I wonder if by the end of next year that 7 year deal will drop to 5 or 6. 5 would be stomachable, 32 by the end of it means he should still be playing decent footy - Ruckman tend not to fall away as dramatically as others. But yeah, I wouldn't be ok with 7 at that point.

 

[F_therest]

[/QUOTE]

Pass. Too expensive and has the potential to screw our TPP balance. Let everyone else fight over Grundy, Whitfield, Cameron, Crouch etc.

Zac Williams on a more modest contract should be exactly where we aim.

Williams + Papley and anything else is a bonus. Reckon by this time next year Wines will be in our rear view mirror with our existing midfield group taking a big step forward.

Yeah if given the choice, i'd rather say, Papley & Williams on $600k over 4 years, over Grundy on $1.2 mill over 7 years.

 

[KohPhi]

Like giving up pick 2 for Weller favourable?

I get what you mean though.

I think that was just stoopid.

 

[Blue__Balls]

We'll have to agree to disagree re the finances. I don't see as big a harm in putting someone on a big contract.

I don't see hypothetical injuries as justification for not pursuing someone, it's a lazy argument to me. Any player at any time can go down with an ACL, so does that mean you shouldn't pursue anyone? Cripps goes down and 6 blokes take the load because there's 6 blokes who play the same position. Grundy goes down and 1 person replaces him because there's only 1 person in the role (which TDK would do ably imo). It's not a good comparison.

Now a 7 year deal at what will be 27 by the time he gets to us would be a concern. 34 by the time the deal is up, not ideal. I wonder if by the end of next year that 7 year deal will drop to 5 or 6. 5 would be stomachable, 32 by the end of it means he should still be playing decent footy - Ruckman tend not to fall away as dramatically as others. But yeah, I wouldn't be ok with 7 at that point.

The injury argument isn't a lazy one at all. Only 1 ruckman in the seniors, so the initial response would be "Get the best one". But the impact to the side should that one player go down is huge given the lack of depth, and therefore it's a big portion of the salary cap spent trying to strengthen a very vulnerable part of the list. I'd rather have 2-3 budget ruckman who are almost interchangable, and then spend an extra $600k improving a few other positions on the field, as it reduces the impact of injuries when you're less reliant on individual players.

Think how vulnerable our side was in the early part of the rebuild - there was a "Cripps or bust" mentality which was well justified. We've started to get past that now (evidenced by some really gritty wins without the great man) because we've been able to spread the responsibility across a handful of other players. Better for the side if we continue down that path as much as possible.

Cogs wasn't a departure from that, as we would simply have been using banked cap space as a functional signing bonus, and outside that he would have been on a modest $700k salary. Once the auction for Grundy heats up, I expect he'll land somewhere on a deal that works out at $1.1mil per season for 6-7 years. Say we can cheat $1mil of that with our banked space, it's still $6.7mil over 7 years. As F_therest suggested - that money is better spent on Williams and Papley helps to bolster multiple positions on the field, and being on shorter contracts we have flexibility to renegotiate in 4 years rather than being committed for 7.

And as you pointed out - the bloke is 27. Sure, he could still be playing in 7 years. But look at Jacobs, Goldstein, Mumford - any of them justifying more than a modest salary these days?

 

[Accidental genius]

I'm going the early crow, I reckon next year we'll get Grundy as a FA.

Nothing against you coops but I have zero faith in us landing anyone that good. Recent history has shown we just can’t get these types of deals done.

 

[mochacinolatte]

They’ll probably offer Holman lol

I like this.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Nothing against you coops but I have zero faith in us landing anyone that good. Recent history has shown we just can’t get these types of deals done.

Think we need to get better at determining what the motivating factor is for some of these free agents/prime targets.

Seems we missed the mark with Shiel because we thought rolling out the red carpet would convince him to choose us, when he placed more value in having an honest conversation with some of the senior players about where they saw the team being at. Maybe he/they got it wrong, but we clearly didn't strike the right cord with him.

Coniglio, if he is to be believed, was never leaving GWS but just "doing his due diligence" and, most likely, padding out his contract offer from the Giants. That's something, if we'd been on to, would have saved us a heap of time, effort and fan angst.

It's a limited snapshot, but it's something we should learn from. What is Grundy's motivator? Money, security, success, culture, post-career opps? Work it which one makes him tick and find the best way to sell us as the best destination for that aim. If it's money, maybe a shorter, but more heavily front-loaded contract will do the job. Security, maybe it's a 6 year deal with triggers for an extra 2, but on a lower total salary. Success, he needs to see the strategies that have been put in place and he needs to meet with some of our other top end players who can convince him they'll win flags together. Maybe he's an arrogant w***er and the jet will actually impress him. You all get the idea.

 

[Accidental genius]

Its a shame the papley and Martin trades fell over...having committed ourselves to them meant we missed on Ellis and butler. These would have been handy players too. Not much sos could have done..we were committed to the others. Hopefully we can acquire Martin through psd. Pap seems a bit of a dream for next year.