Bluemour Melting Pot XXV

[Aphrodite]

Continued here ...

Bluemour Melting Pot XXVI

As per the Bluemour File OP, this is a thread for discussing Carlton related rumours. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bluemour-file.1085141/ Rumour posters should post their rumours in both threads for those that like just to read rumours and for those that like to have get lost in their...

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[Dadda Dave]

No a player taken that early on a draft if they are going to be elite won't take this long.

Dow isn't ever going to be elite.

We're at the point now we hope he can be serviceable.

Not that I've looked but I reckon there would be plenty of players around that pick that have taken more than 3 or so years to come on to good afl quality..

 

[GT619]

Luke Ball and Jolly the ruckman from Sydney that Kreuzer destroyed - smart picks by Collingwood. Burgoyne at Hawthorn along with Brian Lake. Just a few fairly recent examples. Shall we start looking at Carlton's history....?

I wouldn't call them big fish. Not Dangerfield and buddy level, judd level

 

[GT619]

Tom Lynch. Just last year.

Good teams make good players look good. Lynch is overrated

 

[Jorge]

Name a big fish thats went to another club and won a flag. It doesn't always eventuate

The Norm Smith medallist from our last premiership

 

[Bluebag13]

I wouldn't call them big fish. Not Dangerfield and buddy level, judd level

If your going to use that level of big fish then your sample size is ridiculously small.
Not many players win a GF anyway, now your limiting yourself to what lets say 10 players over 20years.

Just as many "big fish" players havent won a GF while staying at their club as well

 

[JustaBattler]

This may well be the case if he attempted to tackle instead of going the big man bump most of the time, allowing an easy handball.

Not disagreeing with most of what you say, my gov hope tank is still comfortably 10% full. Just the bumps instead of tackles sh*t me so much.

I dont mind blokes going the bump - signs of mongrel- Martin does it really well as well. Did you not see Gov's perfectly executed front on that buried a bloke in the last game or so- and he got penalised for it...weird umpiring - much better tackler than some of the softies we have that think waving an arm in the general direction of an opponent whilst back-peddling = tackle maybe for Champion stats it is - finger touches jumper = AFL tackle ?

I'd rather McGovern/Kennedy/Martin types in the side than blokes who shirk heavy contact. Amazes me to see some of our faster runners not having a clue how to use their speed to advantage in tackling - such an advantage to be able to pick and choose which angles to employ in bringing down a slower opponent - Cotchin has become a benchmark in this regard --> Cyril Rioli is probably the best I've seen in using speed to advantage in tackling - a fierce competitor - enjoyed watching his tackling as much as his running with ball in hand. Eddie Betts in forward line attacks the actual ball going for spillages - but that is a different sort of smarts. Garlett laid some beautifully timed hip and shoulders at speed for us on many occasions - using his speed to hit blokes off balance. Lots of ways to impact - Armfield used his rugby background and speed to bring blokes down from behind with great effect.

Anyway I digress.

 

[Macca43]

No a player taken that early on a draft if they are going to be elite won't take this long.

Dow isn't ever going to be elite.

We're at the point now we hope he can be serviceable.

"No a player taken that early on a draft if they are going to be elite won't take this long." No player won't take this long? So every player will take this long?

Seriously mate if you accept that his 3rd year was a write off due to injury and the impacts of covid on second tier comps, restricted training and quarantine etc he is no different to numerous players who started their careers slowly only to end high quality.

 

[JustaBattler]

I wouldn't call them big fish. Not Dangerfield and buddy level, judd level

Ok

 

[Bostonian]

Not that I've looked but I reckon there would be plenty of players around that pick that have taken more than 3 or so years to come on to good afl quality..

And plenty of instant hits and total duds too.

It's not like people aren't watching him play before they come up with an opinion on him.

As I have said previously I was ok with selecting him until a close friend whose son was in the Falcons Premiership side that year said don't draft Bendigo Pioneers players they aren't that good.

Didn't rate their system or players

Given we took two of them and neither looks anything special I'd say he was bang on with his assmesment.

 

[GT619]

Tom Boyd.

Dud

 

[Blue__Balls]

I could see this being our round 1 team (I could also see it not being our round 1 team but for the sake of argument lets say it is)

Plowman, Jones, Newman
Docherty, Weitering, Saad
Williamson, Cripps, Walsh
Fisher, C Curnow, Martin
Casboult, Mckay, Betts
TDK, Williams, Setterfield

Int Murphy, SPS, Marchbank, E Curnow

That would leave the likes of Newnes, Gibbons, McGovern, Kennedy & Silvagni as depth players (although I think JSOS could be a great link between the mid’s and forwards for us) along with first round picks Cuningham, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, Kemp & Philp.

Over the course of the year I would hope that Betts and Murphy get pushed out by some of that first round talent.

Looks almost spot on to me. Only changes I'd foresee from that are to peripheral players.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Newnes ahead of Newman, with Marchy taking a starting position in the backline (provided he gets a decent preseason in). I reckon with Saad added to the backline mix we'll want to make sure we're intercepting as much as possible rather than forcing stoppages down there. No issue if Newman plays, he's a solid defender, just a matter of finding the right balance for the way we want to play.

Casboult the other question mark. I'd hazard a guess that Gov, like Marchy, will be picked if he gets a solid preseason under his belt. And if so, and with Charlie back, I think Levi is the one to miss. Levi has held his spot as much for his ruck relief capabilities as his contested marking, but going into next year we really should start to use Harry for the odd centre bounce. No more "he'll get smashed in there" excuses, he's a big lad and should be more than capable of holding his own against other sides' second string rucks. And at his size, and with his relative speed and agility, he could give us a real advantage in those situations.

So something like this:

Plowman, Jones, Marchbank
Docherty, Weitering, Saad
Williamson, Cripps, Walsh
Fisher, C Curnow, Martin
McGovern, Mckay, Betts
TDK, Williams, Setterfield

Int Murphy, SPS, Newnes, E Curnow

Whether guys like Gibbons, JSOS, Kennedy, Cottrell, Newman/Newnes get games will come down to whether our talented young players are willing to put in the hard yards. This isn't a bad little core of honest battlers to have as depth, but we'll be better for it if they can't get a game because better players are performing.

And there will be opportunities for young blokes like Cunners, Dow, LOB, Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Honey - but only if they can maintain consistent form to warrant ongoing selection.

 

[Bostonian]

"No a player taken that early on a draft if they are going to be elite won't take this long." No player won't take this long? So every player will take this long?

Seriously mate if you accept that his 3rd year was a write off due to injury and the impacts of covid on second tier comps, restricted training and quarantine etc he is no different to numerous players who started their careers slowly only to end high quality.

I don't accept those things.

Not when I see TDK from the same draft come on leaps and bounds during this season.

TDK excites me a lot for the future, Dow not so much.

 

[Gethelred]

I dont mind blokes going the bump - signs of mongrel- Martin does it really well as well. Did you not see Gov's perfectly executed front on that buried a bloke in the last game or so- and he got penalised for it...weird umpiring - much better tackler than some of the softies we have that think waving an arm in the general direction of an opponent whilst back-peddling = tackle maybe for Champion stats it is - finger touches jumper = AFL tackle ?

I'd rather McGovern/Kennedy/Martin types in the side than blokes who shirk heavy contact. Amazes me to see some of our faster runners not having a clue how to use their speed to advantage in tackling - such an advantage to be able to pick and choose which angles to employ in bringing down a slower opponent - Cotchin has become a benchmark in this regard --> Cyril Rioli is probably the best I've seen in using speed to advantage in tackling - a fierce competitor - enjoyed watching his tackling as much as his running with ball in hand. Eddie Betts in forward line attacks the actual ball going for spillages - but that is a different sort of smarts. Garlett laid some beautifully timed hip and shoulders at speed for us on many occasions - using his speed to hit blokes off balance. Lots of ways to impact - Armfield used his rugby background and speed to bring blokes down from behind with great effect.

Anyway I digress.

The strangest thing about Cyril is that he was quiet. You look at the players who he's about to tackle, and they have absolutely no idea he's there. It's not just speed, plenty of fast blokes make noise, and when you're running with stops on you make plenty of noise.

Speed and technique, coupled with an uncanny ability to be completely unnoticed before tackling.

 

[Macca43]

I don't accept those things.

Not when I see TDK from the same draft come on leaps and bounds during this season.

TDK excites me a lot for the future, Dow not so much.

You don't have to accept reality, it just is.

Players devlop at different rates, the fact one player had a good year and another didn't doesn't mean the down player is a lost cause. The fact TDK blossomed after 2 years in the wilderness should give you hope that Dow can do the same.

 

[Benaly28]

what would stack's trade value be?

2nd-3rd


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[JustaBattler]

The strangest thing about Cyril is that he was quiet. You look at the players who he's about to tackle, and they have absolutely no idea he's there. It's not just speed, plenty of fast blokes make noise, and when you're running with stops on you make plenty of noise.

Speed and technique, coupled with an uncanny ability to be completely unnoticed before tackling.

That 'quietness' was probably because he ran faster than the speed of sound.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

I can't see Betts in our best 22.

I agree but Teague will though....

 

[HARKER]

I don't accept those things.
Not when I see TDK from the same draft come on leaps and bounds during this season.

TDK excites me a lot for the future, Dow not so much.

I like what I can imagine Dow becoming, but just not sure he'll become that.

He does have the tools though, but for one reason or another, things just haven't come together for him.
There is something amiss and only the coaches will really know what that may be; Confidence, Injury, Lack of opportunity, Fear.......who knows?

I do though know that he's something we don't have and something that we could well do with....again....Off to you Luke Power.

 

[reubs1066]

I don't accept those things.

Not when I see TDK from the same draft come on leaps and bounds during this season.

TDK excites me a lot for the future, Dow not so much.

When they realise they can compete at the top level, without trying too hard or over thinking things or the like, the switch gets flicked and they start to show their real potential/ability.

That's happened with TDK pretty quickly in the back end of this season.

It can also happen quickly (literally overnight) with any player, Dow included.

 

[Macca43]

Looks almost spot on to me. Only changes I'd foresee from that are to peripheral players.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Newnes ahead of Newman, with Marchy taking a starting position in the backline (provided he gets a decent preseason in). I reckon with Saad added to the backline mix we'll want to make sure we're intercepting as much as possible rather than forcing stoppages down there. No issue if Newman plays, he's a solid defender, just a matter of finding the right balance for the way we want to play.

Casboult the other question mark. I'd hazard a guess that Gov, like Marchy, will be picked if he gets a solid preseason under his belt. And if so, and with Charlie back, I think Levi is the one to miss. Levi has held his spot as much for his ruck relief capabilities as his contested marking, but going into next year we really should start to use Harry for the odd centre bounce. No more "he'll get smashed in there" excuses, he's a big lad and should be more than capable of holding his own against other sides' second string rucks. And at his size, and with his relative speed and agility, he could give us a real advantage in those situations.

So something like this:

Plowman, Jones, Marchbank
Docherty, Weitering, Saad
Williamson, Cripps, Walsh
Fisher, C Curnow, Martin
McGovern, Mckay, Betts
TDK, Williams, Setterfield

Int Murphy, SPS, Newnes, E Curnow

Whether guys like Gibbons, JSOS, Kennedy, Cottrell, Newman/Newnes get games will come down to whether our talented young players are willing to put in the hard yards. This isn't a bad little core of honest battlers to have as depth, but we'll be better for it if they can't get a game because better players are performing.

And there will be opportunities for young blokes like Cunners, Dow, LOB, Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Honey - but only if they can maintain consistent form to warrant ongoing selection.

Yeah I had Casboult in there just as that second ruck but we might roll the dice with Harry. Newnes I am still not sold on, I would prefer if one of the first round picks pushed Newman out but at this stage who knows - there is a big pre-season ahead for players to push their case.

I could just as easily come up with a best 22 that looks like this;

Plowman, Jones, SPS
Docherty, Weitering, Saad
Murphy, Cripps, Walsh
Fisher, C Curnow, Martin
McGovern, Mckay, Cuningham
TDK, Williams, Setterfield

Int Stocker, Dow, Marchbank, E Curnow

 

[Mike D]

Far from convinced about Dow .... but 2021 should be his last chance

 

[Gethelred]

That 'quietness' was probably because he ran faster than the speed of sound.

He was insane in terms of acceleration and agility, but there were times when he's not even really going and he's gotten someone unawares. Can't get the arms over your head when you don't know it's happening.

If you could teach that, there's no limit to how good your team could be.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

What exactly has he done wrong apart from breaking the hub protocols (which was stupid)? I'm sure there are plenty here who have been at a gentleman's club before and also enjoyed a kebab before heading home after a few drinks. If it wasn't an AFL player then it would just be another night on Cavill avenue.

Put the entire 2020 season in jeopardy for all participants, disregarded AFL and Qld rules/protocols etc.....

If that is not enough he entered the AFL system with history as well.

 

[Macca43]

When they realise they can compete at the top level, without trying too hard or over thinking things or the like, the switch gets flicked and they start to show their real potential/ability.

That's happened with TDK pretty quickly in the back end of this season.

It can also happen quickly (literally overnight) with any player, Dow included.

I remember someone stating after the last game Dow played that he did the most defensive running of the team - while that is good it also points towards someone who is working at the game rather than playing it, focusing on making sure they followed instructions.

I completely agree that if Dow has a big pre-season and gets a couple of good games under his belt the switch could flick and away he goes.

 

[BrownDog20]

Good teams make good players look good. Lynch is overrated

Kilked us when he played for the worst team in the comp