BOOO-ing Goodes

[jatz14]

I feel, with the exception of the mentally disabled or challenged who are not able to rationalise the immoral issue of racial discrimination, that the vast majority of fans at the game are not racist or at the very least not racist towards AFL players. I mean why the fk would they be? It's been effectively stamped out of the game so hard over the past few decades that is just passe` to taunt someone based on their race. Just like it's passe` to hit a woman with a club and drag her back to your cave.

Now before you jump up and down and say that racial discrimination still exists in society... yes...it does. But this is not that discussion... we're referring to the relationship of 'Opposition Fans' and 'Professional Athletes' in a game of AFL. With this narrower context in mind... yes I don't believe fans even consider race when watching an opposition player in a game of AFL.

I don't subscribe to the presumption of a few posters in this thread that there is a non insignificant portion of the crowd who have racism in mind when booing. I believe those dots are being connected unfairly by the media (and the AFL).

This is the issue though. I do not think there is more than a tiny minority booing because they are self aware racists booing specifically because he is black. However that is not how prejudice works.

It has been shown that if you present identical CVs to employers who genuinely believe themselves to be non prejudiced, and put a women's name on some, and a foreign name on some, and John Smith on the rest, which ones do they call. They are prejudiced, and they are choosing based an gender and race, they just do not see it.

Despite it already being suggested that booing Goodes was racially based, people still felt comfortable enough to boo, and tell themselves it isn't about his colour. Like the employer who never employed someone with a foreign background, who is genuinely outraged at the suggestion of bias, and who can always come up with another reason he didn't like them.

This is where it gets uncomfortable, those that boo think race has no part, but if it had been a white player who called out the girl, and been awarded AOTY, and made that speech, and dived and staged, would he really have been booed the same way? Those that boo may really think so, but research strongly suggests otherwise.

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[Belltower]

As someone who has worked both within mining (albeit admittedly the white collar side) and outside of mining, I can safely say that mining is a wonderful exception. Unfortunately, despite what the general WA population thinks, mining jobs are only a small percentage of the total number of job roles in Australia.

So say you are hiring for a classic white collar job, such as a sales manager or even just a salesman. You interview 5 applicants and 1 is aboriginal. I can safely say that the aborigine has 99.99999% (sorry, can't find my scientific calculator, ran out of decimals) chance of not getting the job. Because even if you aren't racist yourself, the smart thing to do is not hire them, because you know that some of the customers they will have to deal with will be racist. Even if they were the best applicant, you would be dumb to hire them.

I work in mining at the moment and for an indigenous company but I have also worked for the government, local and state and the indigenous have a wonderful chance in all those areas. I am fairly sure that the % you stated is way off. It would be dumb to hire them is a fairy poor choice of words because if they are the best applicant it would be dumb not to.

 

[WCE_phil]

This is the issue though. I do not think there is more than a tiny minority booing because they are self aware racists booing specifically because he is black. However that is not how prejudice works.

It has been shown that if you present identical CVs to employers who genuinely believe themselves to be non prejudiced, and put a women's name on some, and a foreign name on some, and John Smith on the rest, which ones do they call. They are prejudiced, and they are choosing based an gender and race, they just do not see it.

Despite it already being suggested that booing Goodes was racially based, people still felt comfortable enough to boo, and tell themselves it isn't about his colour. Like the employer who never employed someone with a foreign background, who is genuinely outraged at the suggestion of bias, and who can always come up with another reason he didn't like them.

This is where it gets uncomfortable, those that boo think race has no part, but if it had been a white player who called out the girl, and been awarded AOTY, and made that speech, and dived and staged, would he really have been booed the same way? Those that boo may really think so, but research strongly suggests otherwise.

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If a white person had of been named Australian of the year for the body of work goodes has done for indigenous rights and followed up with the rest of the things goodes has done absolutely he would get booed in the same way. He'd probably get lynched in the street by indigenous people. If a white guy made comments and called Australia Day invasion day in front of military or ex-military personnel he would be lucky to make it out alive. These are people who will bleed for their country and their flag. If you say denigrate it publicly after a major award you are ****ed. The conversation in a pub would go like this "We're out here fighting in a war zone to protect this country and this campaigner yadda yadda yadda" "Right robbo, lets go have a little 'chat' to *****" I'd suggest anyone of a military background would boo Adam Goodes with absolute intent. Could you imagine the backlash a white person performing an indigenous 'war' dance to the crowd would get. Shit they wouldn't need to be booed they would be destroyed by everyone in the media.

On the same token if a middle aged white Australian male was awarded Australian of the year for the reasons Rosie Batty was how do you think women would take it? Shit imagine the shit storm if said male inferred that all women needed to be responsible for domestic violence.

Adam Goodes turned the booing into a racial issue the moment he did the war dance to the crowd. What made it even worse was the bullshit excuse. It made people not only think about that particular issue but any other reason they would have to dislike him.

 

[jatz14]

If a white person had of been named Australian of the year for the body of work goodes has done for indigenous rights and followed up with the rest of the things goodes has done absolutely he would get booed in the same way. He'd probably get lynched in the street by indigenous people. If a white guy made comments and called Australia Day invasion day in front of military or ex-military personnel he would be lucky to make it out alive. These are people who will bleed for their country and their flag. If you say denigrate it publicly after a major award you are stuffed. The conversation in a pub would go like this "We're out here fighting in a war zone to protect this country and this campaigner yadda yadda yadda" "Right robbo, lets go have a little 'chat' to *****" I'd suggest anyone of a military background would boo Adam Goodes with absolute intent. Could you imagine the backlash a white person performing an indigenous 'war' dance to the crowd would get. Shit they wouldn't need to be booed they would be destroyed by everyone in the media.

On the same token if a middle aged white Australian male was awarded Australian of the year for the reasons Rosie Batty was how do you think women would take it? Shit imagine the shit storm if said male inferred that all women needed to be responsible for domestic violence.

Adam Goodes turned the booing into a racial issue the moment he did the war dance to the crowd. What made it even worse was the bullshit excuse. It made people not only think about that particular issue but any other reason they would have to dislike him.

Bollocks

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[WCE_phil]

I work in mining at the moment and for an indigenous company but I have also worked for the government, local and state and the indigenous have a wonderful chance in all those areas. I am fairly sure that the % you stated is way off. It would be dumb to hire them is a fairy poor choice of words because if they are the best applicant it would be dumb not to.

Having been heavily involved in sales for the past few years I can tell you that indigenous people will absolutely be discriminated against without them knowing it in relation to sales jobs. On the same token sales is an area where image and looks are very important. Sales is very much about image and at the end of the day if a customer is going to be racially, culturally, religiously discriminate against one of your sales staff they aren't going to focus on the product as much and will highly likely buy from a competitor if they shop you.

Try selling a Honda to people from certain asian countries if you aren't Asian.

 

[beatlesmith]

Bit late to the party here and I'm probably not going to be able to say anything that hasn't been said already but here I go on a ramble anyway.

I don't think the problem is the "I boo Goodes because I don't like the way he conducts himself on the field" group, because they're entitled to have that opinion and entitled to boo as well, even if I and others think they shouldn't.
I don't think the problem is the outright racists either. There are always going to be racist idiots and there's not much you can do to change their views. Usually they're pretty quiet about it, at the football at least.
The problem is the people who exist somewhere in the middle. They say some variation of "get on with it", "toughen up", "get a thicker skin", "you've heard worse", "it's just a boo", "stop making a big deal out of it" and all that sort of stuff. These are the people that I suspect make up the loudest contingent of the booers.
It is just so absolutely lacking in empathy and human decency. It's the dark side of the blokey, working class, "she'll be right", "rub some dirt in it", tall poppy syndrome suffering culture that we've developed and often take pride in.
We tell people to stop whinging and deal with it.
We tell men that they shouldn't express their feelings, even though men are three times more likely to commit suicide. We need beyondblue campaigns to point out how dangerous this is.
We tell anyone who confronts things with racist, misogynistic or homophobic undertones that it's "political correctness gone mad".
You see it every f***ing day it's that pervasive. You see it in the comments on every news article on this topic. Every second talking head seems to hold this opinion.
Here you have a guy whose only crime was expressing his culture and his opinion on Australia's history, as well as pointing out someone who called him an ape. Wayne Carey had an affair with his captain's missus, glassed his partner and assaulted a police officer and he gets a better reception than Goodes.

Even if you take out the racists, the message is clear: "Don't express your culture to us, don't express your opinion and don't take a stance on racism. Put up and shut up because straya yeah". And yet some wonder why he's upset?
I did a mediation course last week and one of the techniques in mediation is to ask one party "how do you think the other party feels?" and "how would you feel if you were in their position?". Even if you don't like Adam Goodes the player, he doesn't deserve to feel like absolute shit. If you value your right to boo, for whatever reason you have, over him being able to play without feeling like everyone endorses that message, then I don't know what to say to you other than to implore you to think about those questions a little more.

Even if we step outside the moral argument it doesn't make sense to boo. The club is absolutely livid. My mum had meetings with Trevor Nisbett (CEO) and Richard Godfrey (COO) the day before yesterday and said that they were "absolutely beside themselves" and "completely embarrassed" by this whole affair. If you value your right to boo over the club's and the WA football public's reputation then I don't know what to say to you.

 

[Godfather32]

Hey Dark Sharks - When you are called a white abbott - tell me something

Do you feel hurt?

Does it in any way hurt your feelings

Love it

 

[WCE_phil]

Bit late to the party here and I'm probably not going to be able to say anything that hasn't been said already but here I go on a ramble anyway.

I don't think the problem is the "I boo Goodes because I don't like the way he conducts himself on the field" group, because they're entitled to have that opinion and entitled to boo as well, even if I and others think they shouldn't.
I don't think the problem is the outright racists either. There are always going to be racist idiots and there's not much you can do to change their views. Usually they're pretty quiet about it, at the football at least.
The problem is the people who exist somewhere in the middle. They say some variation of "get on with it", "toughen up", "get a thicker skin", "you've heard worse", "it's just a boo", "stop making a big deal out of it" and all that sort of stuff. These are the people that I suspect make up the loudest contingent of the booers.
It is just so absolutely lacking in empathy and human decency. It's the dark side of the blokey, working class, "she'll be right", "rub some dirt in it", tall poppy syndrome suffering culture that we've developed and often take pride in.
We tell people to stop whinging and deal with it.
We tell men that they shouldn't express their feelings, even though men are three times more likely to commit suicide. We need beyondblue campaigns to point out how dangerous this is.
We tell anyone who confronts things with racist, misogynistic or homophobic undertones that it's "political correctness gone mad".
You see it every f***ing day it's that pervasive. You see it in the comments on every news article on this topic. Every second talking head seems to hold this opinion.
Here you have a guy whose only crime was expressing his culture and his opinion on Australia's history, as well as pointing out someone who called him an ape. Wayne Carey had an affair with his captain's missus, glassed his partner and assaulted a police officer and he gets a better reception than Goodes.

Even if you take out the racists, the message is clear: "Don't express your culture to us, don't express your opinion and don't take a stance on racism. Put up and shut up because straya yeah". And yet some wonder why he's upset?
I did a mediation course last week and one of the techniques in mediation is to ask one party "how do you think the other party feels?" and "how would you feel if you were in their position?". Even if you don't like Adam Goodes the player, he doesn't deserve to feel like absolute shit. If you value your right to boo, for whatever reason you have, over him being able to play without feeling like everyone endorses that message, then I don't know what to say to you other than to implore you to think about those questions a little more.

Even if we step outside the moral argument it doesn't make sense to boo. The club is absolutely livid. My mum had meetings with Trevor Nisbett (CEO) and Richard Godfrey (COO) the day before yesterday and said that they were "absolutely beside themselves" and "completely embarrassed" by this whole affair. If you value your right to boo over the club's and the WA football public's reputation then I don't know what to say to you.

What an absolute load of shit. If you honestly think that all Goodes has done is point someone out and express his culture and opinion then you are full of it mate.

 

[beatlesmith]

What an absolute load of shit. If you honestly think that all Goodes has done is point someone out and express his culture and opinion then you are full of it mate.

Good for you buddy keep it up
Disagree with something so you call it "an absolute load of shit", and that I'm "full of it".
Take some time to reflect on who you are and how you act.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Bit late to the party here and I'm probably not going to be able to say anything that hasn't been said already but here I go on a ramble anyway.

Get a load of this guy ^ Just waltzing in here like it's 1979. Have you been under a rock for the last 4 days?

 

[BartBart]

As a matter of interest what should a player be allowed to do a crowd without sanction from the AFL? And what should they be able to do to an opposition crowd without expecting any response?

(In response to questions raised by the Goodes/Jetta copies of the dance invented by the teenagers)

 

[Godfather32]

As a matter of interest what should a player be allowed to do a crowd without sanction from the AFL? And what should they be able to do to an opposition crowd without expecting any response?

(In response to questions raised by the Goodes/Jetta copies of the dance invented by the teenagers)

I could be wrong but it seems pretty unusual for a player to acknowledge the crowd in anyway at all, it seems like when they do it stands out a fair bit because it rarely seems to happen.

 

[boonderella]

Warren Drew
A strong argument from one of Australia's most intelligent indigenous commentators on real suffering, Dallas Scott:
"As Adam walks out for his next game, before making his way onto that perfectly manicured stadium lawn, I suggest he take a deep, slow breath and reflect upon the reality of his life. Rather than having to emerge from the sheds for the ‘coloured people’, kept separate from the white folks playing beside him, he will run out after being supported by his entire team, not kept to the back. When he is thirsty, he doesn’t have to take a drink at the appropriately labelled drinking fountain, set aside for only folks with his racial identity, but rather will be served like a prince, with a special servant whose only job is to provide refreshments for the thirsty players, regardless of their skin colour or heritage. As he drives his brand new sports car to training, where he looks around at the other players arriving in their equally expensive vehicles and stops to realise he is paid just as much as them, if not more, he should perhaps pause a moment and wonder about whether he is fighting a war that has already been won, and instead of complaining from his position at the top, realise how those on the bottom rungs might be sick of hearing him whinging and would much rather he just got on with life."

 

[Ochre]

Warren Drew
A strong argument from one of Australia's most intelligent indigenous commentators on real suffering, Dallas Scott:
"As Adam walks out for his next game, before making his way onto that perfectly manicured stadium lawn, I suggest he take a deep, slow breath and reflect upon the reality of his life. Rather than having to emerge from the sheds for the ‘coloured people’, kept separate from the white folks playing beside him, he will run out after being supported by his entire team, not kept to the back. When he is thirsty, he doesn’t have to take a drink at the appropriately labelled drinking fountain, set aside for only folks with his racial identity, but rather will be served like a prince, with a special servant whose only job is to provide refreshments for the thirsty players, regardless of their skin colour or heritage. As he drives his brand new sports car to training, where he looks around at the other players arriving in their equally expensive vehicles and stops to realise he is paid just as much as them, if not more, he should perhaps pause a moment and wonder about whether he is fighting a war that has already been won, and instead of complaining from his position at the top, realise how those on the bottom rungs might be sick of hearing him whinging and would much rather he just got on with life."

That misses the point so badly that Sam Reid is embarrassed.

 

[Abed]

No. They're booing the one that actually stood up and spoke out, it's not that bloody difficult

I have no problem with Goodes (or any player for that matter) standing up and speaking out against racism - it's something that we shouldn't tolerate in today's society. I don't agree with him gesturing to throw a spear into the crowd though. IMO it is an aggressive move. Now I know you say that it's ok because it occurred during Indigenous round, but

a) I don't equate the throwing of a spear with Aboriginal culture. Sure, I know they used them for hunting, but if someone asked me what I associated with the Aboriginal culture, throwing a spear wouldn't be at the top of my list.

b) It's still an aggressive gesture toward a crowd that has come to see a game of football. Just because it happened during Indigenous round doesn't make it alright IMO. If I was hanging out on the weekend and someone took a couple of steps toward me then gestured to throw something directly at me, I'd be annoyed. Will the AFL let players of other cultures make aggressive gestures toward the crowd during Multicultural round? We might not like the outcome if they do.

 

[BartBart]

I could be wrong but it seems pretty unusual for a player to acknowledge the crowd in anyway at all, it seems like when they do it stands out a fair bit because it rarely seems to happen.

Which is partly why I was asking. O'Laughlin shouted at the cheer squad in a final once. Can't think of any others off the top of my head, although I would be surprised if it hadn't occasionally. O'Laughlin's was a close game, Goodes when thrashing the opposition and Jetta when being thrashed.

I know it happens in other sports a bit more like Association Football.

 

[Dugg]

Everyone is going around in circles at the moment, so I'll comment from my spot up on the fence.

Everyone has the right to boo. Doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.
The crowd should not have been labelled racist in the slightest. Doesn't mean that there aren't racists in the crowd.
Goodes shouldn't have done the war dance towards the crowd. I'm sure if he had his time again, he wouldn't have aimed it at supporters.
He acts like a flog on the field. Doesn't mean he is a flog once he leaves the field.
Adam has less than 10 games left in the tank. Love him or hate him, he should be shown respect on his way out of our game.

He is a human being who is shown to be hurting, and for that reason alone the booing should stop. Whether you think he is a wuss or a sook doesn't matter, deep down you know what is the right thing to do.

 

[bluengold89]

This is the quote by Goodes that I don't like:

...Goodes added that while the war dance was aimed at “the opposition”, he would not have done it against any of Carlton’s Aboriginal players — part of his actual opposition on the field.

“I’m not going to go up to (Carlton’s) Chris Yarran and do it because he’d actually be part of the war cry.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...f-over-war-dance/story-fnpp4dl6-1227377043531

So basically what he's saying is that the war cry was aimed at the 'white' people in the crowd? Just a bizarre attitude to take. If the 'opposition' is the crowd, then surely they're within their right to get stuck into him when he plays?

Also the fact that Sydney were 50 points up at the time, against Carlton, probably the most average team of the past few decades didn't help. If it had happened after Goodes kicked a goal to put Sydney in front in a fierce contest (ala Mickey O and fat Daniel) then sure, go ahead. But all I can picture is Goodes premeditating it before the game, which is just ridiculous.

/rant, if you provoke the crowd, be prepared to cop it back. He should have retired years ago, a shell of his former self, and i can't help but feel that he'll retire on the back of this controversy, and avoid Sydney having to push him out for the finals.

 

[tesseract]

FYI, like 95 percent of the people who use the term "social justice warriors" are just racists, homophobes and chauvinists

Please cite where you got this statistic from? Or are you just conveniently making shit up to defend your ideological narrative so typical of SJW's?

who are mad that it's no longer acceptable for white guys to say openly offensive things about non-whites, gays, and women.

Yeah, because there couldn't possibly be any other reason as to why Goodes is being booed. This is why one can't reason with you SJW types, for once you've got a convenient, yet faulty, narrative stuck in your head, no reason and/or evidence to the contrary can convince you otherwise. "Boo" isn't racist, you ideologically indoctrinated numpty!

 

[Ochre]

Yeah, because there couldn't possibly be any other reason as to why Goodes is being booed. This is why one can't reason with you SJW types, for once you've got a convenient, yet faulty, narrative stuck in your head, no reason and/or evidence to the contrary, can convince you otherwise. "Boo" isn't racist, you ideologically indoctrinated numpty!

And you want to pretend the exact same isn't the case for the other side of the debate?

 

[tesseract]

And you want to pretend the exact same isn't the case for the other side of the debate?

Now you're speaking for what I'm thinking on the matter? A SJW being disingenuous? No, never.

 

[Ochre]

Now you're speaking for what I'm thinking on the matter? A SJW being disingenuous? No, never.

And a conservative acting like they're so ****ing high and mighty.

Fine, do you believe that people on your side of the debate are not doing the same things you mentioned in the original post I quoted?

 

[tesseract]

And a conservative acting like they're so ******* high and mighty.

Fine, do you believe that people on your side of the debate are not doing the same things you mentioned in the original post I quoted?

I'm not a conservative, I'm apolitical/politically neutral. I simply made an observation as to certain aspects of politics from an outsider's perspective.

Your question is void, because no side of politics is my side.

 

[Ochre]

I'm not a conservative, I'm apolitical/politically neutral. I simply made an observation as to certain aspects of politics from an outsider's perspective.

Your question is void, because no side of politics is my side.

Do you believe that people who believe it is ok to boo Adam Goodes, like you appear to think* do the same things that you accused "Social Justice Warriors" of doing?

*If that's not the case, please still answer the question, I'm interested in your response to the question, not your view on the booing as a whole.

 

[tesseract]

Do you believe that people who believe it is ok to boo Adam Goodes, like you appear to think* do the same things that you accused "Social Justice Warriors" of doing?

*If that's not the case, please still answer the question, I'm interested in your response to the question, not your view on the booing as a whole.

From my observation, the vast majority don't. Because the SJW's intent is to focus on their ideological narrative - a stock standard practice of SJW's - which is making this an issue of racism where it doesn't appear to be. The opposing side to this has focused on the many reasons as to why Goodes is booed, with no cohesive narrative explaining the event, because there isn't a political ideology behind their views, unlike with the SJW's.