Bret Thornton

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Windhover said:
Others have put their hand up and admitted they have undersold Thornton. Having been highly critical of Thornton in the past I would love to be in the same position. I have not seen his game against Fremantle and, frankly, do not need to. Were he best on ground it would not change my poor opinion of him. I need to explain why.

I have always said that I do not believe he is capable of playing a significant role in a side competing for a premiership. He has proven he is incapable of being a KPD. His form this year proves that - without Jamison Henderson has had to be re-nvented as a KPD because we all know Thornton is not the answer. But, as a third tall, loose man in defence we all know his natural kick tends to float and is anything but incisive and precise. This has not changed. Further, he is not quick and falls to ground far too easily. I accept that he has improved his spoiling this year, but he is coming off a very low base and his spoiling pales by comparison with that of Duigan, Laidler or Jamison.

It is said that he can play forward. Well he has kicked 10 goals for the year so far (10th on the list at Carlton) but rightly no one is talking about "stop Thornton stop Carlton" as has been said, at different times, about Betts, Garlett, Walker and Waite. Lets face it he hasn't kicked a bag against anybody.

Thornton is (and has always been) a superior mark at AFL level. This one talent does not make up for the deficits noted above although I think full kudos to Ratten in protecting Thornton from having his weaknesses exploited. That he might have played well against Freo (a side that will be lucky to make the 8) when reportedly we kicked to team-mates very well, does not prove one way or the other whether he will be an asset against West Coast, Geelong or Collingwood. With all respect to Thornton, if he is in the best 22 against those sides (and he may be if we have significant injuries) we will need divine assistance to win.

I am not eating humble pie and obviously don't expect to. But it is a dish I would be delighted to eat if circumstances necessitate it.
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But you're purely looking at it as a numbers game there... it's not always like that...

We need a link-up forward... we desperately do... the type of forward that is Drew Petrie, Travis Cloke, Josh Kennedy that can run all the way upto the wing for an option... we have this in Waite... common traits in all those players is their marking ability... however, since Waite has been missing, we've need someone to step up and do this role... and Thornton has done so...

The game on Saturday, he played this role as good as you could have asked of him... he led all the way upto half back in some instances and when kicked to him, he didn't let the team down...

I agree that the days of Thornton as a permanent defender are gone... however the role of the swing man/utility/where needed man, he is valuable... he have these kind of players now in spades... Waite, Hendo, Gibbs and Thornton... and you can see Ratts also trying it with Bower last year, Laidler and Duigan this year...

It's well and good to stick the boot in when someone is playing terrible... and I guess as spectators, we can only comment on what we see... but you have to give it to T-bird for forcing his way into the team and not letting go...

Sure, there are going to be times this year where I will crack it at the ground abusing him for a mistake... cause frankly, I go used to it... but as I've learned from the JR situation, they will do more right than wrong... and I believe he is in our best 22
 
HARKER said:
Mate, you've got to live in the here and now.
Forget the petulant Thornton you remember from years gone by, as this is not the same character playing out there right now.
Happy to take the knocks, put on shepherds and put his face over the ball and all without turning on his team-mates.

That may change some time in the future, but let's not allow that to get in the way of applauding him for what he is producing out there right now.

Credit where credit is due.
Don't be a sook and watch the Fremantle game. You may even agree.
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I know petulance is a knock against him that you have had in the past. I have never paid it much mind. I concede it is not a good look but if getting a bit of abuse from a team-mate causes a player to turn to jelly it is not the player dishing it out I am critical of. I have explained why the Freo game is unimportant to my assessment of him but I fully intend watching the game, with tissues and all if you do not mind.
 
Windhover said:
I know petulance is a knock against him that you have had in the past. I have never paid it much mind. I concede it is not a good look but if getting a bit of abuse from a team-mate causes a player to turn to jelly it is not the player dishing it out I am critical of. I have explained why the Freo game is unimportant to my assessment of him but I fully intend watching the game, with tissues and all if you do not mind.
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so who do you replace him with

should we have a team of superstars, cos it ain;t gonna happen, Carlton has improved greatly this year and it;s from guys like Bret grealtly improving not just the upper echelon

the here and now as harks said
 

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GordonBlue said:
But you're purely looking at it as a numbers game there... it's not always like that...

We need a link-up forward... we desperately do... the type of forward that is Drew Petrie, Travis Cloke, Josh Kennedy that can run all the way upto the wing for an option... we have this in Waite... common traits in all those players is their marking ability... however, since Waite has been missing, we've need someone to step up and do this role... and Thornton has done so...

The game on Saturday, he played this role as good as you could have asked of him... he led all the way upto half back in some instances and when kicked to him, he didn't let the team down...
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What makes Petrie, Cloke and Kennedy important forwards is not that they are "link-up" forwards. They are "go to" forwards. That is, a team-mate has the ball and little time to dispose of it. They kick to one of these players in the forward line and know at worst a contest at best a mark. Waite can also play that role but not Thornton IMO.

I accept that statistics are of limited worth but that said I note that of Thornton's 12 marks, only 1 of them was a contested mark. Maybe this was because he had blown up his opponent with hard running a la N. Riewoldt or Cloke, or perhaps he had sprinted off his man a la Franklin. If so this tells me more about his opponent than Thornton. More probably, from your description of him as a "link-man" he took his marks in space because Freo defenders were, rightly or wrongly, more concerned to stop several other players from getting the ball.
 
Bluesque said:
so who do you replace him with

should we have a team of superstars, cos it ain;t gonna happen, Carlton has improved greatly this year and it;s from guys like Bret grealtly improving not just the upper echelon

the here and now as harks said
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Yarran, Jamison, Laidler
Duigan, Henderson, Davies
Simpson, Judd, Gibbs
Garlett, Waite, Robinson
Betts, Walker, Kreuzer, Ellard

Ruck: Warnock, Murphy, Carrazzo
IC- Scotland, Armfield, Joseph, Russell
Emerg: O'Hailpin, Curnow, Houlihan, McLean
 
Windhover said:
Yarran, Jamison, Laidler
Duigan, Henderson, Davies
Simpson, Judd, Gibbs
Garlett, Waite, Robinson
Betts, Walker, Kreuzer, Ellard

Ruck: Warnock, Murphy, Carrazzo
IC- Scotland, Armfield, Joseph, Russell
Emerg: O'Hailpin, Curnow, Houlihan, McLean
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injuries ???

Waite, Jamison, Russell...injured,
 
Windhover said:
What makes Petrie, Cloke and Kennedy important forwards is not that they are "link-up" forwards. They are "go to" forwards. That is, a team-mate has the ball and little time to dispose of it. They kick to one of these players in the forward line and know at worst a contest at best a mark. Waite can also play that role but not Thornton IMO.

I accept that statistics are of limited worth but that said I note that of Thornton's 12 marks, only 1 of them was a contested mark. Maybe this was because he had blown up his opponent with hard running a la N. Riewoldt or Cloke, or perhaps he had sprinted off his man a la Franklin. If so this tells me more about his opponent than Thornton. More probably, from your description of him as a "link-man" he took his marks in space because Freo defenders were, rightly or wrongly, more concerned to stop several other players from getting the ball.
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But that's the thing... T-bird when given that role, he has been doing it better as every week goes by...

Ratts tried him as a deep forward last year in the ants and early this year...

When Waite first got injured, Ratts put it on Walker to do this role... and he was ok. Walker is strong runner and athlete, however you need to hit his chest too often to play the link man. We need someone that you can kick it in his vicinity when you're just clearing the centre and they take a strong mark at half forward. T-bird isn't Waite, Cloke, Kennedy or Petrie at that... but he's the best option we have at that. the last couple of weeks, we had T-bird do this role (part time against Dees, full time against dockers) and he is getting better the more he plays that role. He's got the ability... it's all about the knowledge of playing that role, in which he is still learning and very evident.

Last week we saw Walker go into the midfield, Laidler forward and Duigan forward... so he was experimenting. However, T-bird played the same role all day until he got injured.
 
GordonBlue said:
But that's the thing... T-bird when given that role, he has been doing it better as every week goes by...

Ratts tried him as a deep forward last year in the ants and early this year...

When Waite first got injured, Ratts put it on Walker to do this role... and he was ok. Walker is strong runner and athlete, however you need to hit his chest too often to play the link man. We need someone that you can kick it in his vicinity when you're just clearing the centre and they take a strong mark at half forward. T-bird isn't Waite, Cloke, Kennedy or Petrie at that... but he's the best option we have at that. the last couple of weeks, we had T-bird do this role (part time against Dees, full time against dockers) and he is getting better the more he plays that role. He's got the ability... it's all about the knowledge of playing that role, in which he is still learning and very evident.

Last week we saw Walker go into the midfield, Laidler forward and Duigan forward... so he was experimenting. However, T-bird played the same role all day until he got injured.
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Yep :thumbsu:.

He is definitely improving, he is given his role and he does it,
 
From the 'From The Coach' e-mail.

Finally, I'm please to report that Bret Thornton is okay despite sustaining that ugly egg under his left eye. We'd actually organised for him to catch a train back to Melbourne if it was determined he'd suffered a fracture because we didn't want to put him at any risk, but fortunately there was no break, he only suffered a burst blood vessel, and he made the flight home with everyone else.
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