By Career's End, Darren Jolly Will

[The Finger]

You have to love the way people continue to quote this myth. Although it may be true that Collingwood was marginally beaten in GF1, Jolly was not beaten at all. Go back and have a look. You can't attribute all of the ruck contests to Jolly it's just a way of trying to dishonestly support an argument that flies in the face of the facts. For starters, even if you took Brown's ruckwork out of the equation you still have to factor in that St Kilda had a third man up in the ruck virtually all day which IMO proves that they were worried about Jolly's dominance. In the end, in one one one contests, Jolly more than held his own and smashed every opponent around the ground. To suggest otherwise is just a nonsense.

Wouldnt have anything to do with there number one ruckman going down before quarter time? A fact that is conveniatly forgotten about when the GF is dicussed.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Unlike Jason Blake and Tom Hawkins.

They are better than Brown.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Wouldnt have anything to do with there number one ruckman going down before quarter time? A fact that is coneniatly forgotten about when the GF is dicussed.

Absolutely. They didnt have any cover for Gardiner and Kozi went into the game injured, so were forced to triple team Jolly to negate his effectiveness because they knew they couldnt match him head-on without Gardiners help.

 

[Falchoon]

Fortunately none of that mattered in the end.

Why do you bother?

close the site, football discussion rendered pointless by results

 

[The Finger]

Absolutely. They didnt have any cover for Gardiner and Kozi went into the game injured, so were forced to triple team Jolly to negate his effectiveness because they knew they couldnt match him head-on without Gardiners help.

Both teams went in without any cover other than makeshift ruck man. Was a critical point in the whole GF saga the loss of the in form Gardiner.

 

[jonbe54]

Both teams went in without any cover other than makeshift ruck man. Was a critical point in the whole GF saga the loss of the in form Gardiner.

The same argument can be brought up for a large amount of previous GF participants. For Collingwood the loss of Carman (because of his stupidity) and Buckley could be touted as cases for Pies losing their respective GF's.

I'm sure other teams have hard luck stories of missing vital players at the last hurdle through injury and suspension.

Would be's and if's and but's aren't the point here.

Jolly was triple teamed most of the day the reason behind it is not the point of discussion.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Both teams went in without any cover other than makeshift ruck man. Was a critical point in the whole GF saga the loss of the in form Gardiner.

Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know. Injuries happen in games. Bottom line is that StKilda managed to survive that game without Gardiner by adjusting their game-plan. Kozi is far more than a make-shift ruckman, by the way. And the next week they brought in McEvoy - a young star in the making - so had equal if not more ruck stocks than Collingwood.

Last start against StKilda, Jolly got 29 hit hitouts to Gardiner's 11. Theres no reason to think that Gardiner's injury had a big bearing on the result of GF1. If anything it might have helped StKilda's cause because it brought some more mobile big men into the game and dragged the hopelessly out of form Kozi out of the forward line where he was a risk of catching pneumonia.

 

[The Finger]

Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know. Injuries happen in games. Bottom line is that StKilda managed to survive that game without Gardiner by adjusting their game-plan. Kozi is far more than a make-shift ruckman, by the way.

Last start against StKilda, Jolly got 29 hit hitouts to Gardiner's 11. Theres no reason to think that Gardiner's injury had a big bearing on the result of GF1. If anything it might have helped StKilda's cause because it brought some more mobile big men into the game and dragged the hopelessly out of form Kozi out of the forward line where he was a risk of catching pneumonia.

Hit outs have to be credited to someone. Out of those 29 when rucking against Gardiner I would almost garantee they were less effective than 29 hit outs against a novis ruckman.

 

[jonbe54]

Hit outs have to be credited to someone. Out of those 29 when rucking against Gardiner I would almost garantee they were less effective than 29 hit outs against a novis ruckman.

Okay you almost Guarantee so ante up big mouth - where are the articles and videos to prove your wild and so far unproven assertion?

 

[Brad Goodman]

close the site, football discussion rendered pointless by results

Pretty much. Talking down Jolly's 2010 is irrelevant to anything, and hence pointless.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Hit outs have to be credited to someone. Out of those 29 when rucking against Gardiner I would almost garantee they were less effective than 29 hit outs against a novis ruckman.

Your guarantees are pretty worthless, though.

 

[The Finger]

Okay you almost Guarantee so ante up big mouth - where are the articles and videos to prove your wild and so far unproven assertion?

First up this is not a shot at Jolly but ruck stats in general. More often than not a ruckmans role is to at best nulify the oppisition ruckman. At least make it a 50/50 contest on the ground.

 

[The Finger]

Your guarantees are pretty worthless, though.

Pretty much like your opinion but here we are.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

First up this is not a shot at Jolly but ruck stats in general. More often than not a ruckmans role is to at best nulify the oppisition ruckman. At least make it a 50/50 contest on the ground.

Agree with that, tell that to Felchoon.

If Jolly manages at least a 50/50 ground level contest, Collingwood wins. He did and we did.

 

[The Finger]

Agree with that, tell that to Felchoon.

If Jolly manages at least a 50/50 ground level contest, Collingwood wins. He did and we did.

In GF2 when he was able to direct his hit outs more effectivly playing on a young kid the Collingwood mid field found more of the ball. In GF1 when it was more of a 50-50 on the ground St Kildas mid field won.

 

[laminex]

he will be remembered as the ruckman that won flags with sydney and collingwood

This!.

 

[PieNSauce]

In GF2 when he was able to direct his hit outs more effectivly playing on a young kid the Collingwood mid field found more of the ball. In GF1 when it was more of a 50-50 on the ground St Kildas mid field won.

Partly true but that was as much because Pendlebury was not sick in GF2 as anything.

 

[The Finger]

Partly true but that was as much because Pendlebury was not sick in GF2 as anything.

That was evened out with Dal Santo wearing a mattress on his leg and kick and playing with a jab.

 

[MF]

After the the 2006 gf week I tolerated him. After walking out in the circumstances he did last year I dislike him altogether.

This pretty much sums it up for me too.

In the end it was a win-win for both clubs though. Collingwood got a premiership and we got Mumford with the cap space freed up and Jetta with pick 14 so it's not something I'll be losing any sleep over. I just won't be as hospitable towards Jolly as I am towards other ex-swans like Hall or Schneider.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Swans may have handed the Magpies a Premiership but by the same token it could be argued that they took one away from the Cats, who struggled in the ruck in 2010. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

 

[Falchoon]

Pretty much. Talking down Jolly's 2010 is irrelevant to anything, and hence pointless.

as presumably is talking it up

as is this line of discussion

back on topic...........

 

[Falchoon]

Agree with that, tell that to Felchoon.

they could thus come to an agreement and nullify each other on the bench, job done.

 

[PieNSauce]

That was evened out with Dal Santo wearing a mattress on his leg and kick and playing with a jab.

...which was evened out by...blah blah blah... and around we go...

 

[The Finger]

...which was evened out by...blah blah blah... and around we go...

Well we have to hear the Pendlebry I was so nervous I couldnt eat and kept throwing up story so yeah.

 

[MarkT2]

There is some interesting discussion and some out and out BS in this thread. My take on ruckman is that athletes played as ruckman are second rate midfielders.

Gardiner and Jolly are both good tap ruckmen. When Jolly was up against a second rate ruckman (may only be due to age - time will tell) he smashed him and was a big reason for the win. It was exactly what killed Collingwood when Fraser was the ruckman (ditto McKee).

I have seen 2 Collingwood premierships and the ruckman was a key on both. In 1990 Monkhurst forced Salmon, the only dangerous forward they had, from FF into the ruck. In 2010 Jolly helped the midfield dominate as well as worrying his opponent by being dangerous himself when he stamped his mark on the game in 2 key plays in the second quarter.

Quality ruckmen are with their weight in gold. Not enough coaches look for the right qualities in ruckmen - Malthouse included for all but the last year. You have to wonder whether Malthouse had an epiphany or someone else had had enough.