By Career's End, Darren Jolly Will

[TheRealComptroller]

Less than 10 possessions in 2010 of the top ten ruckmen

Sandilands - 2
Jamar - 8
Jolly - 6
Mumford - 6
Cox - 3
Brogan - 4
Leuenberger - 2
Hudson - 2
Renouf - 10
Ryder - 3

Jolly's poorer games (in possession terms, a dubious measure for a ruckman at the best of times ) are on a par with his peers.

If you're going to come up with some stats, try and find some that mean something. He was the third best ruckman in the comp this year in terms of hitouts and the best goalkicker of them all. Three of his 24 season goals where when it mattered, in finals. Two of his poorer games were back in Rounds 1 and 2. All new players at clubs can be forgiven for needing a couple of games to get into the groove.

Dude WTF.

The bit in bold - you don't really believe this.

How do I know?

A) You couldn't be that batshit crazy and/or ignorant about this sport.

B) You then cite his shittier games as R1,R2 and the PF; the games where he had FA touches.

Which one is it?

You're schizophrenic?

Or did you mean to type "a key measure" instead?

Either way you don't make any sense; they can't be dubious one second and then worthwhile the next.

Make up your mind (even if it is an asinine POV - "in possession terms, a dubious measure for a ruckman at the best of times" ) and dont try to have each-way bets.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I can only repeat, measuring ruckmen by possession stats does not neccessarily illustrate a ruckman's worth. And even if you choose to go down that path, Jolly's low possession games are no worse than many of his peers. He's right on average. Yes he took 2 or 3 weeks to get acclimatised at a new club - as did Mumford with only 9 possessions in Round one and no kicks in Round 2 - but after that his season was excellent. For what its worth Mumford (who generally is accepted as having had the second best year in the AFL behind Sandilands) also had two finals of under ten possessions. In fact in two finals he got the grand total of one kick. Aaron Sandilands got nine posesssions (and just two kicks) in one of the finals he played.

Does that (the low stat count) mean they had poor games? Maybe but not neccesarily. Perhaps its an indicator but it may not be a true indicator.

The other thing about possession counts is the assumption that handballs are worth the same as kicks. Of course they arent. Kicks are far more valuable. They carry much more importance. Darren Jolly had more kicks than any other ruckman in season 2010 apart from Cox who for a big man is an elite possession gatherer. In fact he had 100 more kicks than Mumford and Jamar. He had more kicks than the athletic Ryder.

 

[absfab]

Jolly is probably number 2 or thereabouts at the minute. I think he'll be remembered for his athleticism that belies his size but you can't really call him number 1.

FFS. Is it at all possible that a single Collingwood supporter will get past the assumption that a Premiership makes every single player a gun?

Jolly is a good ordinary player and nothing more. Looks better because he went to a team that didn't have even a good ordinary player in the ruck, and hence made a difference.

 

[PieNSauce]

FFS. Is it at all possible that a single Collingwood supporter will get past the assumption that a Premiership makes every single player a gun?

Jolly is a good ordinary player and nothing more. Looks better because he went to a team that didn't have even a good ordinary player in the ruck, and hence made a difference.

FFS. Is it at all possible that you will get over the fact that your club is shyte and your jealousy blinds you?

Nobody said he's a gun player. I don't believe that there's any ruck in the league at this point that could genuinely be described as that because it's very rare for a ruckman to be athletic enough for that. The simple fact is that he's probably at least equal number 2 in the league whether you happen to like it or not. Yes of course that's just my opinion but happily a lot of people share it and you can do as you please.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

2nd, 3rd, 4th.......who really cares.......he's up there somewhere amongst the very best.

The stats back it up. Hitouts, kicks, goals, marks, clearances by that ruckmans's midfield.....

 

[liz]

IFor what its worth Mumford (who generally is accepted as having had the second best year in the AFL behind Sandilands) also had two finals of under ten possessions. In fact in two finals he got the grand total of one kick. Aaron Sandilands got nine posesssions (and just two kicks) in one of the finals he played.

Does that (the low stat count) mean they had poor games? Maybe but not neccesarily. Perhaps its an indicator but it may not be a true indicator.

I reckon using stat count as the main factor to assess how good a game any player had is simplisitic.

But Mumford and Sandilands did both have ordinary finals series - compared to their overall season output. And both were carrying significant injuries. Mumford strained a knee ligament in the first few minutes of the round 21 game against the Dogs, missed the next game, struggled a tad against Carlton in the EF and then strained a ligament in his other knee just before half-time in the SF. My memory about Sandilands isn't as good - didn't he too have a PCL injury for the last month or so of last season?

 

[PieNSauce]

I reckon using stat count as the main factor to assess how good a game any player had is simplisitic.

Yes that's true up to a point but I think that stats do occasionally tell a story. For instance, some here have suggested that Jolly got smashed in GF1 which anyone watching the game would have to question. In truth, Collingwood was beaten 45 to 39 in hitouts and of Collingwood's hitouts Jolly got 32. This against an opposition who had 3 ruckmen on the ground sharing the duties fairly evenly (Blake, Gardiner and Kosi) and between them they only managed 34 hit out with the best individual effort being Blake (14). Hard to conclude on that evidence that he was smashed on his primary role. What the ruck stats also tell you when you look at the disparity between total Saints hitouts (45) and hitouts by their ruckmen (34) vs Collingwood's Total (39) of which 37 were by their 2 ruckmen is that Jolly was double and triple teamed most of the day with a number of other players being third or fourth man up. Add to those stats the fact that of the 4 main ruckmen, Jolly also had the most disposals (14) against Blake (12), Gardiner (4), Kosi (11), and only Jolly and Kosi managed to kick a goal a piece and you really have to question the mentality of someone making such a claim.

So yes, stats as a measure can be simplistic but they can also be quite instructive.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I reckon using stat count as the main factor to assess how good a game any player had is simplisitic.

Especially for ruckman. Its a rough guideline only.

 

[liz]

Yes that's true up to a point but I think that stats do occasionally tell a story. For instance, some here have suggested that Jolly got smashed in GF1 which anyone watching the game would have to question.

That's the point though. It is stats combined with actually watching a game that tell you how much influence a player has.

The problem with needing to actually watch games to assess a player's effectiveness is that it doesn't enable the mindless head-to-head comparison of two players that exists on BF under the guise of footy analysis by many posters (not you specifically - just a general observation).

 

[PieNSauce]

That's the point though. It is stats combined with actually watching a game that tell you how much influence a player has.

The problem with needing to actually watch games to assess a player's effectiveness is that it doesn't enable the mindless head-to-head comparison of two players that exists on BF under the guise of footy analysis by many posters (not you specifically - just a general observation).

Couldn't disagree with that.

I am lucky enough to have access to a bit of archival footage thanks to my Media Centre at home. In particular I have access to most of Collingwood's 2010 games and the odd game I've recorded from flashbacks etc. When this topic came up and that particular comment was made it didn't sit right with me so I went back and watched the whole game which confirmed my thoughts. Posting stats about it just adds fuel to what was already obvious.

 

[Highlander35]

I respect Jolly as a player. He's a better than average tap ruckman. He has the endurance and the athletecism to run all day for his club. He's a premiership player at 2 different clubs, and will be remembered by both. He's consistently been in the top 5 or 6 ruckmen since 2005.

something that sets him apart from traditional ruckman, is that he's had the footy brain, that tells him where to run, when to go to ground for the ball, the best position to mark, defend etc. While he has the endurance to do it all day, something even Dean Cox couldn't. None of this however elevates him to the top, there's always been 1 ruck or more ahead of him; Ball, Cox, Sandilands, Ottens etc.

Of the current generation of Rucks, the only ones I see as having a good or better "footy head" than jolly, are Matthew Kruezer, Matthew Leuenberger, and Ben McEvoy. And these three all will struggle to overtake his standing (now a 2nd ruck/utility, very injury prone, and snail paced respectively)

 

[liz]

Of the current generation of Rucks, the only ones I see as having a good or better "footy head" than jolly, are Matthew Kruezer, Matthew Leuenberger, and Ben McEvoy. And these three all will struggle to overtake his standing (now a 2nd ruck/utility, very injury prone, and snail paced respectively)

I don't see Jolly as having a particularly "above average footy head". Cox is the one that stands out above all the rest in this regard, to me anyway. I do think he has learned the ruck craft well over his career, possibly due to spending time at the Swans, who place a lot of emphasis on the role of the ruckman.

His biggest assets are IMO

- his durability. He almost never gets an injury that stops him playing, and he is able to shoulder a lot of the ruck burden during a game. In 2009, he rucked the whole season substantially on his own for Sydney.

- his ability to monster young, inexperienced rucks on occasion

- his ability to push forward and kick goals. And he kicks most of his goals while genuinely playing in the ruck, rather than just while resting forward. He was effective in this regard for Sydney in 2008 and 2009 especially, but improved this facet of his game still further in 2010 for the Pies. It was the aspect of his game that Sydney most missed last year, as it is not (yet) part of Mumford's (or Pyke's) armoury and Seaby was injured for most of the year.

 

[Gary Ayres]

2nd, 3rd, 4th.......who really cares.......he's up there somewhere amongst the very best.

The stats back it up. Hitouts, kicks, goals, marks, clearances by that ruckmans's midfield.....

You are showing yourself to be a typical silly Collingwood supporter that doesn't have an idea about football. THe fact that the midfield clears the ball at a high rate is a testament to them and not the ruckmen being used in the tapouts. Look at Geelong and Gary Ablett Junior and how many clearances he and the rest of the Geelong Midfielders got againsts ides like Fremantle who have the best ruckman in the competition against arguably the worst.

Typical Collingwood wankfest thread.

 

[The Finger]

Yes that's true up to a point but I think that stats do occasionally tell a story. For instance, some here have suggested that Jolly got smashed in GF1 which anyone watching the game would have to question. In truth, Collingwood was beaten 45 to 39 in hitouts and of Collingwood's hitouts Jolly got 32. This against an opposition who had 3 ruckmen on the ground sharing the duties fairly evenly (Blake, Gardiner and Kosi) and between them they only managed 34 hit out with the best individual effort being Blake (14). Hard to conclude on that evidence that he was smashed on his primary role. What the ruck stats also tell you when you look at the disparity between total Saints hitouts (45) and hitouts by their ruckmen (34) vs Collingwood's Total (39) of which 37 were by their 2 ruckmen is that Jolly was double and triple teamed most of the day with a number of other players being third or fourth man up. Add to those stats the fact that of the 4 main ruckmen, Jolly also had the most disposals (14) against Blake (12), Gardiner (4), Kosi (11), and only Jolly and Kosi managed to kick a goal a piece and you really have to question the mentality of someone making such a claim.

So yes, stats as a measure can be simplistic but they can also be quite instructive.

StKilda had 2 ruckman from quarter time so Id suggest that it wasnt shared evenly. There number one ruckman being the one that wasnt available.

 

[.Shotties.]

The simple fact is that he's probably at least equal number 2 in the league whether you happen to like it or not. Yes of course that's just my opinion but happily a lot of people share it and you can do as you please.

Haha, not aimed at you, but I remember at trade time last year, the general consenus was that he was outside the top 5. The year he had this year was no better than his time at the Swans. Who's fallen?

 

[Falchoon]

Cox is the one that stands out above all the rest in this regard, to me anyway. I do think he has learned the ruck craft well over his career, possibly due to spending time at the Swans, who place a lot of emphasis on the role of the ruckman.

Cox IMHO spends too much time behind the ball playing as a link player rather than causing carnage up forward. That is what makes Naitanui so exciting, his running forward.

The one thing I do like about Jolly is his Everitt like ability to sneak forward, though granted that does come off better the better the team is doing.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The one thing I do like about Jolly is his Everitt like ability to sneak forward, though granted that does come off better the better the team is doing.

He did that for a few years at the Swans when they werent travelling so well post 2006. It wasnt as if he suddenly became a goalkicker when he arrived at Collingwood.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The fact that the midfield clears the ball at a high rate is a testament to them and not the ruckmen being used in the tapouts.

Are you saying quality ruckmen dont contribute to clearances? Ever? Did Brad Ottens not help the Cats win a premiership?

 

[Gary Ayres]

Are you saying quality ruckmen dont contribute to clearances? Ever? Did Brad Ottens not help the Cats win a premiership?

Nowhere near to the extent you make it out to be. Even Mark Blake was still considered ordinary despite being involved in the midfield with the best clearance rate in the competition .

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Nowhere near to the extent you make it out to be.

I only said five words. I was hardly going over the top.

 

[Lach72]

Sandilands is a clearance machine.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Sandilands is a clearance machine.

Of course he is. Anybody who doesnt think good ruckmen contribute to clearances is a fool.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

... be considered a good ordinary ruckman who has helped himself to 2 flags from AFL assisted clubs.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

... be considered a good ordinary ruckman who has helped himself to 2 flags from AFL assisted clubs.

Yep. There hasnt been a premier that hasnt been AFL assisted in the history of the game. Except Essendon of course.

 

[Thommo 42]

Nowhere near to the extent you make it out to be. Even Mark Blake was still considered ordinary despite being involved in the midfield with the best clearance rate in the competition .

I understand you are referring to Blake as a spud, and rightly so - but your example is poor. Despite universal acknowledgement that Blake is in fact a spud, there is also universal acceptance that he is a very good tap ruckman, its just that he literally does nothing else at all.

He is rarely beaten in hitouts, but unfortunately for him and Geelong, he spends the rest of the game running around like a 10 year old who has never played before.

Sandilands is clearly the best ruckman in the comp with daylight 2nd. However, Jolly is most certainly in the next handful and I doubt Collingwood would swap him for anyone (except Sandi).